[Book & Show Spoilers] Season 4 is unsatisfying for me so far

[Daske]

...

"Sparky" but the way, is a reference to a different TV show, in case anyone wonders where I got it. It's just a hat tip to Daske. :)

Quickly off-topic - there are rumours of a new series. Maybe.. just maybe.

[Daske]

A large proportion of the 'better in the show' choices are non-PoV characters too - Tywin with the Dance menace, and Marg + Olena are much more visceral.

(The other obvious thing is many non-PoV have not been transferred to the screen well)

While watching the Sam-Gilly scene I was thinking one day Martin could go back and write some back-story PoV chapters for some of the characters the show fleshed out a bit more (I know it won't happen). Gilly really has had a crap life so far, her PoV would be one of the most terrifying and difficult to read I'm sure. I would give a penny for the Queen of Thorns' or Marg's thoughts also.

[MadKingDavid]

Quickly off-topic - there are rumours of a new series. Maybe.. just maybe.

Oh yes! I just posted an article about that on Facebook last night! It's suppose to take place something like 19 years in the future after their kid is born and ready to go into space with them! Thanks for reminding me. That would be great!

"No, you't can't borrow my pod. The last time I lent you the pod, you forgot to put gas in it and I was nearly marooned with Scorpius."

"Oh, Da-ad! I NEVER get to drive the pod!!" :lol:

[MadKingDavid]

While watching the Sam-Gilly scene I was thinking one day Martin could go back and write some back-story PoV chapters for some of the characters the show fleshed out a bit more (I know it won't happen). Gilly really has had a crap life so far, her PoV would be one of the most terrifying and difficult to read I'm sure. I would give a penny for the Queen of Thorns' or Marg's thoughts also.

Oh yes, me too. I'd love to get the POV of both Olenna and Margaery. That would be great.

[Tyrion1991]

And I think the opposite. But the truth, or as objective as we can get, is probably somewhere in the middle. If you look at the 'Book vs Show Characters' thread below, most fans that posted show a healthy number of characters they find better in the show. 50:50 looks a very fair representation of that straw poll. Which is a pretty good hit-rate imo considering the challenges this adaptation brings.

"Better" depends on the standard you use. Arguably, cutting all of Jorahs ASOS interaction with Dany and making all he does giving her good advice makes the character more likeable. Hes kind of a hypocritical dick and being domineering around Dany as well as presumptuous by kissing her in the books n pushing other men away. Stripping, essentially all his ASOS material, makes Jorah more likable but thats kind of missing the point. Hes meant to have brought this on himself to some degree and deserve it when he gets exiled. IMO they may as well have just cut the character at this point and given his advice lines to Barristan. If you're not going to tell the important part of Jorahs story then whats the point of telling the part where he meets Tyrion? Yes, a lot of those scenes would be uncomfortable to watch and shoot. But thats the point. Going back to the breaking bad example. It should not all be idealised relationships with everyone getting along. Its more than a little ridiculous that Jorah is content to follow Dany for eternity because he loves her but isn't going to earnestly try to get with her; as he tries and fails in the novels.

Giving Daario material where we get to see him fight (this NEVER occurs in the novels and contributes heavily to him coming across as a braggart if not a liar) does mean people will like the character more. But do such scenes add anything to the story or move the plot forward? No they don't. GRRM in ASOS was perfectly fine having Dany flirt with Daario as soon as she meets him. Her interest is immediately obvious and requires no more embellishment. A couple lines and you get the message loud and clear. It does not dominate the latter part of ASOS as it has in the show. Hell even in ADWD you do not get this much attention on Daario. This is purely HBO making a ton of extra scenes to oversell a character to the audience. Do we learn anything more about Daario seeing him fight the champion than we learned when we saw him fight in Yunkai. No we did not. I do not care ONE BIT that they have a different actor playing him. They already introduced this character and Danys desire to be with this character fully. She got out of a bathtub naked and was constantly ougling him. So what is the point of having Danys first two episodes continue to prattle on about the same thing.

Having a different actor means nothing. Its reasonable for show producers to expect that the audience remembers what happens last season and half of season 3 was about Daario. Hence, we know everything we need to know about him and the show has added nothing to this.

D&Ds obsession with trying to sell Daario is almost ruining Danys arc for me.

[Mr Fixit]

D&Ds obsession with trying to sell Daario is almost ruining Danys arc for me.

Constant hyperboles are getting kinda boring. Out of 33 episodes thus far, Daario was around for 5 (five) of those. Aside from 3x08 where he was quite prominent as it was the episode that introduced him and the Second Sons, he was featured in, what, 5-6 scenes total? That's obsession? Really?

Reminds me of another poster who argued that D&D ruined the show because Joffrey ate up screentime left and right, far more than he was present in the books. Until someone showed up and provided concrete data that showed that the little creep appeared for something like 15-17 minutes a season.

Amusing, isn't it?

[Mr Fixit]

That didn't help them get it right in season 2, did it.

Actually, it did!

[Aemond's Eye]

ummmm you don't rape or are forceful towards someone you love just saying. considering all of grand de lys spoilers have been 1000% true so far and they've showed jaime to be rather forceful in the trailer with him manhandling her and saying "why have the gods made me love a hateful woman" its clear that that scene is going to be much more twisted and rough and aggressive than it was in the books.

wildly out of character for jaime and a huge disservice to cersei's character

Are you an expert on what goes on in the mind of a rapist? As I'd say it's a massive sweeping generalisation you're making, and quite an assumption to make. Then again, when you're describing the scene as "rapey," rather then actually realising the symbolism in the scene, then perhaps you should watch it again and think about it.

[Northernmonkey]

Well you know, Sparky, I come from the perspective that they need a good reason to change the books--but that's not an impossible standard to meet. Ruining the whole redemption of Jamie, one of the best parts of the books, with a scene having him rape Cersei obviously doesn't meet the standard.

I don't think it ruins his redemption arc at all. It's not like he loses a hand and saves Brienne and then he's suddenly a good person. I don't think Jaime's character is truly redeemed in the books until he ignores Cersei's letter asking for help while he's in the Riverlands.

It's his relationship with Cersei that fucks Jaime up, so it makes sense that when he finally sees her again and she rejects him that it makes him do a bad thing.

[Queen of Whores]

I don't think it ruins his redemption arc at all. It's not like he loses a hand and saves Brienne and then he's suddenly a good person. I don't think Jaime's character is truly redeemed in the books until he ignores Cersei's letter asking for help while he's in the Riverlands.

It's his relationship with Cersei that fucks Jaime up, so it makes sense that when he finally sees her again and she rejects him that it makes him do a bad thing.

A while ago I would have agreed, except the more I thought about it the more I realized what a stupid thing it was for Jaime to refuse. For all he knew Cersei (and Tommen to that extent) were in serious danger and were begging for him to save them. For him to just ignore it was kind of a selfish thing to do.

In my opinion I didn't start to see Jaime as a truly "better" person until his chapter in Dance when he went to Raventree Hall to get the surrender, and he meets Tytos Blackwood on the drawbridge, and he asks Jaime if he should kneel there and swear fealty but Jaime spares him that and says they'll do it later (and never do) because he feels sorry for the guy.

[Northernmonkey]

A while ago I would have agreed, except the more I thought about it the more I realized what a stupid thing it was for Jaime to refuse. For all he knew Cersei (and Tommen to that extent) were in serious danger and were begging for him to save them. For him to just ignore it was kind of a selfish thing to do.

I think it was definitely the right decision. I think he realised that Cersei is a destructive person who would destroy the lives of anyone close to her. Maybe it was selfish, but Jaime could never become a good person when he was around Cersei.

[Koi No Yokan]

I don't think it ruins his redemption arc at all. It's not like he loses a hand and saves Brienne and then he's suddenly a good person. I don't think Jaime's character is truly redeemed in the books until he ignores Cersei's letter asking for help while he's in the Riverlands.

It's his relationship with Cersei that fucks Jaime up, so it makes sense that when he finally sees her again and she rejects him that it makes him do a bad thing.

Yes, agreed. I liked Jaime throughout ASOS/AFFC, but that was ultimately the scene I thought "Well, we're getting somewhere after all..."

It is a selfish decision. Jaime is a selfish person, but Cersei is the one person he goes the extra mile for. Ignoring her letter is essentially Jaime cutting all that dead weight he's been carrying his whole life, so he can be himself. Like others have said; she always brings out the worst in him. So go Jaime!

[Wussel]

I do think they are losing pace by spredding the story to thin. Making a full season of the last chapters of the third book is just not very smart. Basically there is little story advancement in each episode now. I wonder how long the trial of Tyrion will take. Maybe three episodes? First some talking in trial, second the famous battle, third the escape with the killings? That way Oberyn would last to episode 5.

[Queen of Whores]

I do think they are losing pace by spredding the story to thin. Making a full season of the last chapters of the third book is just not very smart. Basically there is little story advancement in each episode now. I wonder how long the trial of Tyrion will take. Maybe three episodes? First some talking in trial, second the famous battle, third the escape with the killings? That way Oberyn would last to episode 5.

This has been my mine gripe about seasons 3 and (especially) 4. There is simply not enough material to spread across almost 20 hours of TV. That's why I wished we got an extended season 3 of 16 episodes. Yeah I know D&D keep saying they simply can't, but because of their refusal to compromise it's led to some serious pacing issues. Have the Red Wedding by in episode 8, then have a mid-season break, then come back for the last eight episodes. Problem fixed. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind waiting an extra six months or so, since the end result would be a much better paced and event-filled season.

Season 3 covered about 800 pages of book 3, so that left about 300 left for season 4, and most of that was only for two storylines (King's Landing and the Wall). Because of this drastic drop of book material from ASoS able to be used, the show has invented a huge amount of filler and non-canon scenes that are invented solely to fill up the episode runtimes. They've also had to delve into later books for material, which in my opinion was not a good move, and will make future seasons suffer as a result (Bran will do what, sit in a cave for 10 episodes in season 5??) And now look at this seasons plot progression. We have eight episodes of filler at the Wall, including an entirely newly invented storyline regarding Craster's Keep solely to fill in a few episodes so Jon is doing something before the wildling assault in episode 9 (another issue - it takes the wildlings 13 episodes from when they get to the other side of the Wall to get to Castle Black???) And in King's Landing - Joffrey dies in episode 2, and Tywin will die in episode 10 when Tyrion escapes, so that leaves seven episodes in between of Tyrion sitting in a cell and going to his trial. I'm sorry, but that's just pathetic pacing, and a direct victim of this one book = two season adaptation choice.

One extended season would have done A Storm of Swords justice and then some, but unfortunately we have this setup. I'm expecting some filler-heavy episodes to come up, all the way until the last two or three. Just like in season 3, episodes 6 and 7, 'The Climb' and 'The Bear and The Maiden Fair' had only about two or three book scenes in each episode, I'm expecting that will happen for the next few episodes in season 4. Even now if you look back at these three episodes, only a small handful of the stuff that's happened - maybe thirty minutes at most - have been scenes from the book. The rest is just invented (and often not as good) material. Seasons 1 and 2 didn't have this problem at all, since they had heaps of great book material to work off, but now unfortunately that's not the case, due to the decision made by the show runners.

Okay, rant over :D

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

This has been my mine gripe about seasons 3 and (especially) 4. There is simply not enough material to spread across almost 20 hours of TV. That's why I wished we got an extended season 3 of 16 episodes. Yeah I know D&D keep saying they simply can't, but because of their refusal to compromise it's led to some serious pacing issues. Have the Red Wedding by in episode 8, then have a mid-season break, then come back for the last eight episodes. Problem fixed. I'm sure fans wouldn't mind waiting an extra six months or so, since the end result would be a much better paced and event-filled season.

Not to mention there will be a lot of added material in S4 and S5 will attempt to cover over 2000 pages. E03 already must have the highest non-canon content of any episode thus far and I suspect more episodes this season will break that record.

[MadKingDavid]

I don't think it ruins his redemption arc at all. It's not like he loses a hand and saves Brienne and then he's suddenly a good person. I don't think Jaime's character is truly redeemed in the books until he ignores Cersei's letter asking for help while he's in the Riverlands.

It's his relationship with Cersei that fucks Jaime up, so it makes sense that when he finally sees her again and she rejects him that it makes him do a bad thing.

It's not sudden--it's the result of months of captivity and brutalization. Being held hostage changes people. It's been three years since I read the books, so perhaps I'm forgetting something bad he did after he got back to King's Landing, but I did come away with the impression that the torture, mutilation and shared captivity had wrought a new man, someone basically good. I don't recall him doing anything bad afterwards, much less raping the sister he supposedly loves, which is nearly (but in ASoIF not quite) as bad as it gets. :)

[Tyrion1991]

Constant hyperboles are getting kinda boring. Out of 33 episodes thus far, Daario was around for 5 (five) of those. Aside from 3x08 where he was quite prominent as it was the episode that introduced him and the Second Sons, he was featured in, what, 5-6 scenes total? That's obsession? Really?

Reminds me of another poster who argued that D&D ruined the show because Joffrey ate up screentime left and right, far more than he was present in the books. Until someone showed up and provided concrete data that showed that the little creep appeared for something like 15-17 minutes a season.

Amusing, isn't it?

Not at all-

Ask yourself what the whole point was of the Battle of Yunkai in the series? Its mainly that she gets to meet Daario.

Episode 7 introduces sets the scene with Dany and co arriving in Yunkai and Dany asking about Yunkais "allies"

Episode 8 we get to see them and Daario. Danys whole plot is now about winning the Second Sons and by extension Daario over. We then have the battub scene and he gets time by himself,

Episode 9- Focuses on him flirting with Dany in the tent as he prooves that he is a military genius as he makes the plan to take the city, the Battle where we get to see him being a badass, Him being the one to come to Dany with the flag and say how he has won the battle with Dany having waited the whole time for him.

These 3 episodes Dany arc were all about Daario. In the books, he doesn't lead or plan the battle of Yunkai, he isn't the one who tells Dany the city has fallen, the bathtub scene did not happen and we do not get to see him fight. That is a lot of changes all focused on giving Daario a ton of material. Read the books, he gets a page with Dany in the tent and thats all it takes for GRRM to introduce him and Danys attraction to him.

Episode 1 of season 4- We get to see Daario trying to prove his love to Daenerys by competing with Grey Worm. We get to see him trading jibes with Grey Worm. On the road to Meereen we see him give her flowers and the episode is basically those two flirting.

Episode 3 - All about Daario again. He gets to be the champion and fight yet again in a protracted scene. He has far more dialogue than any of Danys other companions. More flirting between the two. Him getting to talk about how hes so lowborn and not valued by Dany (worlds smallest violin).

He is obviously the most important character in Danys arc at the minute. They have definitely diminished the role of Jorah and Barristan in the story in order to make extra material to focus exclusively on Daario. When we are not looking at Dany conquering slavers bay we're always looking at her and Daario together. The other characters only offer the occasional comment or advice on what Danys doing. None of them have an actual story or plot and could easily be cut entirely at this point and make little difference to the overall plot of the show. There is 0 point pushing Jorahs exile later in the series if you aren't going to do anything from the books or even their own material with the "character".

Other characters=Grey Worm, Jorah, Barristan, Missandei

[six]

I do think they are losing pace by spredding the story to thin. Making a full season of the last chapters of the third book is just not very smart. Basically there is little story advancement in each episode now. I wonder how long the trial of Tyrion will take. Maybe three episodes? First some talking in trial, second the famous battle, third the escape with the killings? That way Oberyn would last to episode 5.

I agree that the pacing is off. They're stretching some storylines too much, I bet KL will be full of repetitive nothing until something happens in episode 10, and Jon's storyline seems stretched to the point I don't know how will they fit it all on next season since his adwd arc is so full on.

[HairGrowsBack]

I agree that the pacing is off. They're stretching some storylines too much, I bet KL will be full of repetitive nothing until something happens in episode 10, and Jon's storyline seems stretched to the point I don't know how will they fit it all on next season since his adwd arc is so full on.

I agree, especially when it comes to KL material : they're stretching things so much and add filler because KL material is their pet arc, when they could really flesh out other arcs that they just flat out neglect at times.

[Le Cygne]

I agree that the pacing is off. They're stretching some storylines too much, I bet KL will be full of repetitive nothing until something happens in episode 10, and Jon's storyline seems stretched to the point I don't know how will they fit it all on next season since his adwd arc is so full on.

I agree, especially when it comes to KL material : they're stretching things so much and add filler because KL material is their pet arc, when they could really flesh out other arcs that they just flat out neglect at times.

I read in one review, Tyrion is more the focus of the show than ever this season, and I'm thinking, how could he be more? He is the show. Game of Tyrion.