World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

[Ran]

It is an artistic impression. George has weighed in on some details, but as he's always said, he gives artists some room. He has been very particular on certain images, and he has had some remarks on some dragons, but mostly it's to try and make sure they're roughly similar in proportion to what he imagines.

[The Dragon Demands]

We seriously need to come up with a placeholder name for the "mystery dragon", it's cumbersome to call it "the mystery dragon".

Let me think....

The mystery dragon shall from now on be known as: Dominusastri.

From the Latin. "dominus" = "lord", "astri" = "of the stars". "Dominusastri" = Star Lord

[Lord Varys]

On Balerion:

If the guy on his back is Aegon, then Balerion was about 115-20 years old. He would have reached his final size only late in his life, when Prince Viserys was his rider. He died in the 80s or 90s, at about 200 years (most likely somewhat older, since he was already alive in 114 AC, back in Valyria).

On the other hand, if Balerion was already bigger than Meraxes during the Conquest, he must have been really huge even back then, and grew ever larger up until his death.

If dragons grew quicker in their youth - and that would make sense, since Dany's dragons are also growing very fast - then Balerion and Vhagar both would not have grown as quickly later in life than they had in their youth.

Syrax and Ceraxes are among the bigger Dance dragons, and they are only 40-50 (Ceraxes - if Daemon was his sole rider, which seems to be the case) and 20-30 years old. Vermithor is about 100 years old, and only half the size of Vhagar, who is 181 years old about the time of her death.

By the way: The Mystery Dragon is named 'Rhaena's Praything'. It is known!

[Free Northman Reborn]

On Balerion:

If the guy on his back is Aegon, then Balerion was about 115-20 years old. He would have reached his final size only late in his life, when Prince Viserys was his rider. He died in the 80s or 90s, at about 200 years (most likely somewhat older, since he was already alive in 114 AC, back in Valyria).

On the other hand, if Balerion was already bigger than Meraxes during the Conquest, he must have been really huge even back then, and grew ever larger up until his death.

If dragons grew quicker in their youth - and that would make sense, since Dany's dragons are also growing very fast - then Balerion and Vhagar both would not have grown as quickly later in life than they had in their youth.

Syrax and Ceraxes are among the bigger Dance dragons, and they are only 40-50 (Ceraxes - if Daemon was his sole rider, which seems to be the case) and 20-30 years old. Vermithor is about 100 years old, and only half the size of Vhagar, who is 181 years old about the time of her death.

But am I correct in saying that Vhagar's death size was said to be roughly similar to the size Balerion was at the time of the Conquest? Or is my memory playing me false?

If so, it would mean that Balerion at 120 was about the same size as Vhagar at 181.

And it would further mean that it is not so much Meraxes that was exceptionally large for its age, but Vhagar who was somewhat small for her age, compared to Meraxes and Balerion.

And Vhagar's trend would then seem to have prevailed also among all the new dragons that were born to the Targaryens after the Conquest, since none of them got to even half Vhagar's size.

[RumHam]

By the way: The Mystery Dragon is named 'Rhaena's Praything'. It is known!

Ok now I'm confused didn't Rhaena ride Dreamfyre?

[Hardstone]

Rhaena, Jaehaerys and Alysanne's sister, originally rode Dreamfyre.

[Lord Varys]

I meant Lady Rhaena Targaryen, Daemon's daughter, who took three dragon eggs with her to the Vale. She supposedly prayed over her eggs (just as Baelor did over his), and I'm still inclined to believe that one of those eggs hatched and that the dragon was big enough to ride in the last half year of the Dance. And Rhaena is still 13-14 (i.e. young and not exactly heavy). It could work.

[HexMachina]

Ok now I'm confused didn't Rhaena ride Dreamfyre?

Lord Varys could be meaning Rhaena of Pentos?

Also, do we know who rode the Mystery Dragon?

[The Dragon Demands]

Ok now I'm confused didn't Rhaena ride Dreamfyre?

Rhaena of Pentos, as she was called, was a daughter of Daemon Targaryen - Daemon being a grandson of Jaehaerys I, making Rhaena his great-aunt. The original Rhaena's great-great-niece was named "Rhaena" after her, and they called her "Rhaena of Pentos" because she was born in Pentos.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, I meant Rhaena of Pentos. The only other option for The Mystery Dragon is either that Viserys' egg hatched (unlikely), or that some (grand)child of Jaehaerys is still alive with a dragon somewhere in Essos. If a dragonrider married into a noble family, his/her dragon might still be there. But I don't think such a dragon could play any role in/would be edited out of TPatQ. It's much more likely that a dragon egg hatched in the Vale.

Not sure if Rhaena is named after Jaehaerys' sister, by the way. Could be that a Rhaena Targaryen was still alive when Daemon's daughter was born, causing everyone to refer to her as Rhaena of Pentos to differentiate between the two. Baela was born in Pentos, too, and she is not referred to as 'Baela of Pentos'.

[Free Northman Reborn]

How old was the Cannibal at the time of the Dance, and was it confirmed as the biggest dragon of the time, after Vermithor and Vhagar?

[jet199]

I like that the Targs basically started out in Westeros as Freys with dragons.

As for the art, just because dragons start out scrawny doesn't mean they can't change in build as they grow.

[RumHam]

Yeah, I meant Rhaena of Pentos. The only other option for The Mystery Dragon is either that Viserys' egg hatched (unlikely), or that some (grand)child of Jaehaerys is still alive with a dragon somewhere in Essos. If a dragonrider married into a noble family, his/her dragon might still be there. But I don't think such a dragon could play any role in/would be edited out of TPatQ. It's much more likely that a dragon egg hatched in the Vale.

Not sure if Rhaena is named after Jaehaerys' sister, by the way. Could be that a Rhaena Targaryen was still alive when Daemon's daughter was born, causing everyone to refer to her as Rhaena of Pentos to differentiate between the two. Baela was born in Pentos, too, and she is not referred to as 'Baela of Pentos'.

Ooooh, we're talking about two different mystery dragons, me and dragon demands were talking about the sixth "trip to the wall" dragon.

[Colonel Green]

One minor bit that I liked was an answer to one of my longstanding questions about the geography of the South: namely, why Massey's Hook isn't a part of the Stormlands even though it's a peninsula that is otherwise wholly blocked off by the Stormlands. The answer being that it was a part of the Stormlands until Aegon annexed it (which seems like the only clear case of one of the Seven Kingdoms having its borders adjusted as a result of the conquest).

[Fat Mac]

One minor bit that I liked was an answer to one of my longstanding questions about the geography of the South: namely, why Massey's Hook isn't a part of the Stormlands even though it's a peninsula that is otherwise wholly blocked off by the Stormlands. The answer being that it was a part of the Stormlands until Aegon annexed it (which seems like the only clear case of one of the Seven Kingdoms have its borders adjusted as a result of the conquest).

That makes sense. Massey's hook even seems like part of the Stormlands in geography (rocky and such).

After the Conquest, the three regions that bordered the Crownlands were newly promoted families (Tully, Baratheon, Tyrell) so it was probably easy for Aegon to work out their borders, since they all owed him.

[The Dragon Demands]

How old was the Cannibal at the time of the Dance, and was it confirmed as the biggest dragon of the time, after Vermithor and Vhagar?

Not clear exactly how big the Cannibal was, but it was monstrously huge: it is stated that he was born when Jaehaerys I was young, making him in the range of 80 years old.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly sure that Star Lord was hatched from one of Rhaena of Pentos's eggs.

[Nittanian]

which seems like the only clear case of one of the Seven Kingdoms having its borders adjusted as a result of the conquest

Crackclaw Point as well, right?

[Lord Varys]

RumHum,

ah, you mean the dragons Jaehaerys took with him to Winterfell? We only know about Vermithor and Silverwing. Dreamfyre is a possibility, if Rhaena accompanied them (and was still alive at that point), but we don't really know if Vhagar or Balerion had any riders at this point, since it's completely unknown when that visit happened.

We don't yet know when Visenya died, but Jaehaerys' children most certainly were not old enough to take over Balerion from Maegor upon his death. Balerion (and Vhagar, upon Visenya's death) either passed to one of Jaehaerys' cousins or aunts, or they remained without a rider until Jaehaerys' eldest children were old enough to claim a dragon.

But even then, it's not known whether those children accompanied the royal party to Winterfell.

We don't know how big the Cannibal was, but he seems to be bigger than Sheepstealer (who hatched when Jaehaerys was still young), making him about the same size or bigger than Silverwing at the end of the Dance. The Cannibal was the oldest of the three wild dragons. I'm inclined to believe that Vermithor's first rider was not Jaehaerys or that he did not hatch from an egg that was given to infant Jaehaerys, since there seems to be a difference in size between Vermithor and Silverwing. We know that Alysanne predeceased Jaehaerys, which in turn may indicate that Alysanne was older than Jaehaerys, making the Old King Jaehaerys' youngest known child.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The comparative weakness of the current day Stormlands is also given better context by the detailed revelation about just how much the Stormlands have declined in power over the last 400 years.

400 years ago, the Stormlands extended farther into the Reach in addition to ruling the Crownlands and the eastern part of the Riverlands. Back then the Storm King must have been able to summon an army around 45,000 strong from these combined territories, compared to the 30,000 max that the Baratheons can raise today.

This would have put the Stormlands on a more even footing with the likes of the Reach, which did not stretch as far east back then, and the King of the Rock.

[Colonel Green]

Crackclaw Point as well, right?

It didn't really sound like any of the kingdoms exerted control over Crackclaw Point prior to the conquest, based on the stories from Brienne's journey.