New Series High

[Faint]

I actually think it is just generally hard to keep the public as interested in an ongoing series as times goes on, regardless of whether its quality has dropped. People like moving onto new things. The same principle applies to sequels to movies.

In any case, whatever the reason, it looks like Benioff and Weiss made the right decision to finish the series in seven seasons.

[Mr Fixit]

The show is not constrained by the pacing of the source material. It's TV. The two books have plenty enough action for 10 hours of TV. The problem with pacing is a show problem, and the show is free to also borrow ahead beyond the books to bring some plots to closure, so there really is no excuse for the plodding, unfocused season we have seen so far, especially with the massive cuts of several stories.

Cersei's story should work very, very well for TV, but it's a mess of invented stupidity and random dialogue.

They're doing okay with Jon and Dany's stories, but still, pacing is off, lack of tension, some things are rushed and lack of set up.

They can move Arya's story forward however they want to.

They did a huge build up of Dorne and so far, nothing really.

The Sansa story may work for TV only viewers, but it is so stupid I have trouble relating to it.

I thought really all of the episodes were sub par, ep 3 was okay, and the last one, ep. 5 was much better than the others. 1 & 4 were pretty bad. 1 atrocious.

Of course it is constrained by the source material.. The show has always been faithful to the books, pacing included. Season 4 had arguably the best pacing, and that's in part thanks to the show diving in medias res, beginning as it did in the middle of ASoS.

Okay, it's clear we disagree here, but I feel that the show progresses very well, especially at the Wall, in Meereen, Winterfell and King's Landing. The rest of the storylines are definitely on the slow side (which I don't equate with bad) but, frankly, that's how it is in the books. I truly urge you to pick up Feast and Dance, check roughly their first halves and tell me what happens there.

[Cas Stark]

Of course it is constrained by the source material.. The show has always been faithful to the books, pacing included. Season 4 had arguably the best pacing, and that's in part thanks to the show diving in medias res, beginning as it did in the middle of ASoS.

Okay, it's clear we disagree here, but I feel that the show progresses very well, especially at the Wall, in Meereen, Winterfell and King's Landing. The rest of the storylines are definitely on the slow side (which I don't equate with bad) but, frankly, that's how it is in the books. I truly urge you to pick up Feast and Dance, check roughly their first halves and tell me what happens there.

It doesn't matter what happens in the first half of the books, because it's a TV show that only has to find 10 hours of material in the two books+unpublished material of whatever they want to include.

But we can agree to disagree, I feel the pacing for this year has been terrible, no tension, no suspense, little story progression from episode to episode...and consequently not very compelling or exciting, which is why probably the show is losing viewers and why they lost so many after that first terrible opener.

[Khal Porno]

You still have to lay the groundwork to set up the payoffs later in the story, so you can't really say they should have just skipped it and gone straight to Drogon's return or Jon's unfortunate moment, or Theon redeeming himself/Stannis attacking Winterfell, etc. because those things are more exciting.

[intheswamp]

I think the problem is that the work is stalling and getting repetitive. It is a similar problem the last two books have faced. But, TV audiences aren't as forgiving as book readers. Dany is still fighting slavery a world away, Tyrion is a prisoner traveling abroad, Jon is at the Wall dealing with wildlings and preparing for a winter that is taking forever to arrive, Stannis is rebuilding his army, Arya is training, Cersei is scheming, Sansa has no luck with marriage, Brienne is being boring, Dorne kinda sucks, Bran is a tree, etc... The writing and acting hasn't been all bad this season. Some places, such as the Wall, have improved. But, I want to see major plots, which involve characters I care about, move along.

Hopefully, some big events at the end of this season will lead to some welcome pace changes next season.

[Cas Stark]

I think the problem is that the work is stalling and getting repetitive. It is a similar problem the last two books have faced. But, TV audiences aren't as forgiving as book readers. Dany is still fighting slavery a world away, Tyrion is a prisoner traveling abroad, Jon is at the Wall dealing with wildlings and preparing for a winter that is taking forever to arrive, Stannis is rebuilding his army, Arya is training, Cersei is scheming, Sansa has no luck with marriage, Brienne is being boring, Dorne kinda sucks, Bran is a tree, etc... The writing and acting hasn't been all bad this season. Some places, such as the Wall, have improved. But, I want to see major plots, which involve characters I care about, move along.

Hopefully, some big events at the end of this season will lead to some welcome pace changes next season.

I don't think you can waste a season with a TV audience on set up. You have to find a way to keep the audience engaged, if not with the plot/action moving forward then you have to focus it inward on some of the key characters and develop them and further the bond w/the audience. Book readers will plod through a bad season and still watch, but an entirely plodding slow season will lose a lot of show only watchers.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

From what I've gathered from my Unsullied friends and family, they think that the show is smothering itself in its own fat. According to them, it's become repetitive, gimmicky, and even a bit nonsensical.

(I rein in my book snobbery around them. If they're enjoying it, then I don't want to spoil their fun)

[PatrickStormborn]

I think that the show is finally suffering from prioritising plot twists/big moments over character development and build-up.

Back in season 1, one of the biggest moments was just Ned sitting down with a book and coming to the realisation that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were not Robert's children. It worked because the audience was invested in the characters and knew that this plot development would have a serious impact on the show.

Now, the characters are flat; Tyrion, for example, is barely different from the way he was in season 4 (... and 3 and 2), except a bit more alcohol dependent. Scenes between episodes barely feel connected (5x01 - Dany runs away from her dragons, who literally try and eat her; 5x05 - Dany uses her dragons ???). There's no longer a sense of character-driven narrative that builds up to plot developments. And that means the moments many readers find so meaningful (Aemon learning of Daenerys, "kill the boy", Jon agreeing to work with the wildlings, Dany agreeing to marry Hizdahr) don't have any impact on viewers.

[Mr Fixit]

(Aemon learning of Daenerys, "kill the boy", Jon agreeing to work with the wildlings, Dany agreeing to marry Hizdahr) don't have any impact on viewers.

I don't know what show you're watching, but 'kill the boy' (and pretty much every scene involving Aemon) and Jon's offer to Tormund were phenomenal scenes.

[Frey Pies]

I think that the show is finally suffering from prioritising plot twists/big moments over character development and build-up.

Back in season 1, one of the biggest moments was just Ned sitting down with a book and coming to the realisation that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were not Robert's children. It worked because the audience was invested in the characters and knew that this plot development would have a serious impact on the show.

Now, the characters are flat; Tyrion, for example, is barely different from the way he was in season 4 (... and 3 and 2), except a bit more alcohol dependent. Scenes between episodes barely feel connected (5x01 - Dany runs away from her dragons, who literally try and eat her; 5x05 - Dany uses her dragons ???). There's no longer a sense of character-driven narrative that builds up to plot developments. And that means the moments many readers find so meaningful (Aemon learning of Daenerys, "kill the boy", Jon agreeing to work with the wildlings, Dany agreeing to marry Hizdahr) don't have any impact on viewers.

That scene was important in season 1 because it is an important revelation that had potential to change everything happening in King's Landing. Viewers knew that there would be heavy repercussions if anyone found out, and it was a very unexpected development. None of the scenes you compared that to are anywhere near as important to the things that are going to happen. How does Aemon giving Jon a great speech, and Jon agreeing to let the wildlings in (which is something everyone expected all along) moments that change the dynamic of what the audience knew, like the Robert's children revelation did? Also, Game of Thrones was also much more focused plot-wise than all the other books in the series, so of course a twist like that in the central plot of Season 1 is going to have more of an impact on audiences.

Also, I don't think there is a loss in interest in the show. Mother's day always has low ratings, and this season, every episode bar 1 has performed better than its season 4 counterpart. It is also by far the most torrented season.

[sj4iy]

Oh no! This season's ratings are up over last season's and it is the most watched show in its timeslot regularly, but they aren't reaching the ridiculous ratings episode one had! The show has definitely peaked and is obviously heading down the road to disaster because a small percentage of the viewers who have read the books are unhappy with the changes...which is in no way different from the first 4 seasons at all.

/end sarcasm

The ratings are fine. The show is fine. HBO is not suffering, and they care only about the:

1. Subscription numbers

2. Press

And they are getting plenty of both from GoT.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't know what show you're watching, but 'kill the boy' (and pretty much every scene involving Aemon) and Jon's offer to Tormund were phenomenal scenes.

You're taking my post entirely out of context. I was specifically talking about how character moments that are so meaningful to book readers end up looking like filler in the TV show. Jon getting the wildlings on side should be a huge moment in the show, and yet critics and viewers generally thought the episode was uneventful.

That scene was important in season 1 because it is an important revelation that had potential to change everything happening in King's Landing. Viewers knew that there would be heavy repercussions if anyone found out, and it was a very unexpected development. None of the scenes you compared that to are anywhere near as important to the things that are going to happen. How does Aemon giving Jon a great speech, and Jon agreeing to let the wildlings in (which is something everyone expected all along) moments that change the dynamic of what the audience knew, like the Robert's children revelation did? Also, Game of Thrones was also much more focused plot-wise than all the other books in the series, so of course a twist like that in the central plot of Season 1 is going to have more of an impact on audiences.

Also, I don't think there is a loss in interest in the show. Mother's day always has low ratings, and this season, every episode bar 1 has performed better than its season 4 counterpart. It is also by far the most torrented season.

Jon letting the wildlings through the Wall is, you know, an absolutely huge deal considering they were fighting against each other last season. Or at least it should feel like a huge deal.

I wasn't really comparing the two scenes - I was just pointing out how season 1 had much smaller moments and yet the episodes didn't feel uneventful.

Obviously it's quite subjective. But I'm responding to the general trend I've noticed, where viewers complain about the episodes being "boring" unless something shocking happens.

You're right that it's still a bit too early to make any comments about the ratings. But the decline is noticeable, and I'm sure HBO are talking about it.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't know what show you're watching, but 'kill the boy' (and pretty much every scene involving Aemon) and Jon's offer to Tormund were phenomenal scenes.

Clearly we are not watching the same show. Instead of Aemon's sound advice in the books, we had a version of "Fuck logic, Jon! Kill the boy!" and Tormund's "Even though nobody could reunite all these savages during centuries, I'll just do it if you come with me"

[sj4iy]

Clearly we are not watching the same show. Instead of Aemon's sound advice in the books, we had a version of "Fuck logic, Jon! Kill the boy!" and Tormund's "Even though nobody could reunite all these savages during centuries, I'll just do it if you come with me"

Uh, that's not at all what he said.

Jon said "I know what I need to do, but it's going to make people hate me", and Aemon replied "Then do it".

That's not at all the same as saying "fuck logic", nor do I know how one would arrive at such a conclusion. A better translation is "When you are a leader, your decisions will always upset some people, no matter how sound they are. But you still have to make them."

And Tormund wanted to make sure it wasn't a trap...what better way to convince his people that they aren't going to be led to a slaughter than to have the LC of the NW come with him?

Really, nothing you said is remotely the way it happened in the show. Terrible mischaracterization.

[David Selig]

Quite the pointless discussion. Ratings doesn't prove anything about quality. Plenty of absolute crap has had great rating and vice versa.

[Cas Stark]

I think that the show is finally suffering from prioritising plot twists/big moments over character development and build-up.

Back in season 1, one of the biggest moments was just Ned sitting down with a book and coming to the realisation that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were not Robert's children. It worked because the audience was invested in the characters and knew that this plot development would have a serious impact on the show.

Now, the characters are flat; Tyrion, for example, is barely different from the way he was in season 4 (... and 3 and 2), except a bit more alcohol dependent. Scenes between episodes barely feel connected (5x01 - Dany runs away from her dragons, who literally try and eat her; 5x05 - Dany uses her dragons ???). There's no longer a sense of character-driven narrative that builds up to plot developments. And that means the moments many readers find so meaningful (Aemon learning of Daenerys, "kill the boy", Jon agreeing to work with the wildlings, Dany agreeing to marry Hizdahr) don't have any impact on viewers.

I agree.

Stuff happens. Then other stuff happens. Some of it is cool. A lot of it is random and barely connected to the rest of the stuff.

The long developing stories and writing where we saw attitudes evolve and change episode to episode seem to be gone and instead, stuff happens.

[The hairy bear]

It should be surprising that precisely the season that includes two whole books that together are longer thant ACOK+ASOS combined (and they made three seasons out of that) are perceived by many as uneventful.

I agree that the problem lies in that the characters are not developed enough. Even events such as Mance or Barristan's death may be deemed of little significance for tv viewers that have seen no more than four or five scenes with them across five seasons. This is partly because of the huge cast, that does not allow to devote much time to tertiary characters, but still, they could have made a much better job developing them.

Quite the pointless discussion. Ratings doesn't prove anything about quality. Plenty of absolute crap has had great rating and vice versa.

I agree completely.

[sj4iy]

Quite the pointless discussion. Ratings doesn't prove anything about quality. Plenty of absolute crap has had great rating and vice versa.

One of the rare times you and I agree on something XD

[Les Météores D]

The ratings for episodes 2, 3, 4 and 5 are almost the same, nothing alarming, far from it actually. The lackluster premiere certainly can be blamed for the drop but I guess some viewers forgot that the biggest and most popular plot on the show (KG/Lannisters) exploded. Seems to me the Wall, Stannis&co and reek/Boltons were always very polarizing.

I think the season is good but episode 4 was horrendous, mostly due to poor direction (Barry's fight) and cartoonish Sparrows, hopefully Cogman will turn the table with the SS. Jaime looks bored in Dorne and only 5 sec of Myrcella doesn't help.

[Mr Fixit]

Uh, that's not at all what he said.

Jon said "I know what I need to do, but it's going to make people hate me", and Aemon replied "Then do it".

That's not at all the same as saying "fuck logic", nor do I know how one would arrive at such a conclusion. A better translation is "When you are a leader, your decisions will always upset some people, no matter how sound they are. But you still have to make them."

And Tormund wanted to make sure it wasn't a trap...what better way to convince his people that they aren't going to be led to a slaughter than to have the LC of the NW come with him?

Really, nothing you said is remotely the way it happened in the show. Terrible mischaracterization.

Yeah, the lengths some people go to in order to willfully misinterpret everything so it fits some fetish of theirs... it's astounding when you think about it.