Nitpick With Impunity: Goat Edition

[Florina Laufeyson]

I thought about that as well. Could it be Missandei?

The amount of awesome that would be, is incredible. Im going to file that crackpottery away for later.

I'm not quite sure why, but I did as well.

I'm also not sure whether this warrants me therapy or not.

Something tells me that Alfie's junk was untampered with and thats why we got the "maybe a peek....NOPE!" shot. Ramsay givin' the googly eye to it was just creepy.

[Colonel Green]

Something tells me that Alfie's junk was untampered with and thats why we got the "maybe a peek....NOPE!" shot.

They could CGI his junk out of the shot.

[Florina Laufeyson]

They could CGI his junk out of the shot.

Did you guys really want to see CGI mangled junk? :lmao:

[Stormland's Fury]

Did you guys really want to see CGI mangled junk? :lmao:

One of the dragons would end up on the cutting floor though.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Yeah. That's why I was really surprised that it was not settled by Roose Bolton arriving on the scene with 100 more men, and then Asha Yara would know she could never escape with that and with Theon actively resisting her. That would have been a way to escape the painted corner, where Yara at least gets to keep some dignity. Not just a shirtless loony with a pack of dogs.

He could have taken her hostage? She could have taken him hostage just as easily.

Yup Yup. I mean, I'm left to infer/assume that happened, but they should've shown that, or at least had Ramsay say something along those lines. "Hear those alarm bells? How long do you think you've got until my dad wakes up with the rest of our men and traps you here?" Or have one of her own men point out they're running out of time because the reinforcements are coming [and maybe even have that guy turn out to either be Tristifer or Qarl, or even a pastiche thereof? :)]

It also would've been a good move because The Roose has yet to truly Get Loose this season and that is, of course, highly disappointing :)

Now, MAYBE they can salvage a little bit by having The Roose show up next week and bitch Ramsay out for having such lax security and/or having to bail him out. "Hold your tongue, bastard, as far as I can tell that so-called "Iron Bitch" had you cornered until I showed up to bail you out. You're not my son, you're my liability." Or something like that.

After all, Roose's leverage on Ramsay is that Ramsay still craves paternal approval, and if Roose can throw that at him and take the wind out of Ramsay's sails after Ramsay thinks he's SO CLEVER for using Reek to get Moat Cailin to surrender, then he's still got Ramsay somewhat under control (and he'll take his frustration out on Reek again. Or maybe Myranda)

But without making it clear that Asha had run out of time and had to retreat to save herself, yup, the Ironborn just got tarred with the Jabroni brush and that don't easily come off.

Also now that other people mention it, it is a little annoying that we get the IB ready to back Stannis BEFORE Cersei tells them to gtfo she's not paying you back. Sequence is important here and would more clearly illustrate how the Iron Bank operates. "oh, Cersei, you say fuck us? Nah nah, fuck YOU, we're putting Stannis back on track to whip your ass, have fun!"

HOWEVER, I'm willing to look the other way since this way we got a scene with Salladhor Saan :drool:

[PatrickStormborn]

And, how is Dany “whitewashed” in this episode? She punished slavemasters; the only slavemaster we’ve seen so far is much more sympathetic than in the books; and on top of that, he and his family could possibly be the innocent victims of Dany’s penal system; how does that make her “whitewashed”, please? (On a side note, Hyzdhar is not a very realistic character here: “My queen, you’re very beautiful, and this pyramid is beautiful, and my father built it. My father?! Huh, I thought you’d never ask. Well, he’s dead! And yes, you killed him.” So lame.)

Just wanted to add here that in the first episode Missandei told Dany that 1000 slaves died building the Great Pyramid. Would have been nice to see Dany make that connection to remind Hizdahr (and the audience) that his father was still not innocent, even if he didn't condone murdering the slave children. Again, they make it look like Dany just doesn't think (when, in reality, it's because the writers are the ones failing to make connections in their own writing).

As it stands, it looks like D&D took the wrong message from Dany's crucifixions. The problem, really, is not that some of them may have been innocent (that's obviously a problem, but Dany never truly punishes them FOR the crime itself anyway); the main problem is that it was ineffective. It provoked the Great Masters without significantly weakening them. She should have punished all of them, or punished none of them.

[Lord Damian]

Ramsay does not strike me as a brave character in the books, he is a bully who is blustering when he has all the cards. The Dreadfort scene was rediculouse

[Colonel Green]

Ramsay does not strike me as a brave character in the books, he is a bully who is blustering when he has all the cards. The Dreadfort scene was rediculouse

Whatever else might be said about them, he's quite forward in battle.

[Fat Trell]

Re-watched the episode today. Realized I love the court scene a lot, and that I hate the Iron Bank scene.

First off, we again have Stannis being useless. He already isn't good at military stuff, sucks at politics(canon), is a religious fanatic, and is a shit friend. Lets add weak-willed to list. He gives up on what is a pretty desperate plan to begin with early, and needs Davos to trumpet his ability. He, once again, needs either Davos or Melisandre to plan and enact any action he takes.

But my bigger issue is the Iron Bank itself. The Iron Bank has no reason to think Tywin won't repay them. Even if they are aware of his Gold Mines running dry, he now commands an entire continent. He can tax. He has access to the Tyrell's personal resources as well. On the surface, even under the surface, the 7 Kingdoms are unifying. They aren't slipping into further chaos. Supporting Stannis is absolutely ludicrous.

Even if they find Tywin's successors less than adequate, why assume he's going to die? And why assume anyone would be dumb enough to not repay them? And why not first try to establish this fact before choosing to back a candidate to the throne who not only has long odds, but apparently has no plan to improve these prospects?

And why would an emotional speech that further reinforces the fact that Stannis inspires little love, change these facts? Banks don't run on emotion, businesses don't run on emotion. What makes the Iron Bank interesting is their alieness to the setting. They aren't scorned lords or vengeance minded royalty; they're businessmen. They make money. With no scruples or thoughts to the rightness or honor of their clients.

The Iron Bank certainly isn't behaving like a bank playing realpolitik. They're behaving like spectators looking for a compelling man to back.

Not to mention this utterly removes Cersei's already whitewashed misstep next season. The Iron Bank will now support Stannis not because she made a mistake, but because they didn't trust a women to pay the debts of her bankrupt husband and disappointing father.

[Ankou]

They could CGI his junk out of the shot.

Woah woah woah, do they have that kind of budget hiding all that junk?

[Nami]

I really didn't like how Varys reported about Daenerys at the counsel meeting.

Whatever his true agenda might be, he definitely doesn't want the 7 kingdoms to unite and prepare for an invasion. But this is exactly what he does, when he portrays Daenerys as a danger that has to be taken seriously.

In the books, he's more like "Some sailors talked about seeing a kraken on the shore, in Qarth there's talk of dragons, and beyond the wall they claim to have seen some snarks as well"

But on the show, he gives a detailed report about Daenerys' strength. He talks about her three dragons, and when Cersei waves it off "Three small dragons..." he responds that they're growing every year. Actively making them more cautious, where they would remain oblivious if he just kept his mouth shut.

I can't get over that. It's like everyone knows there's a Targ with three freaking dragons and it's totally ok and they're keeping calm about it, when in season 1 they were quite freaked out that Dany was pregnant. Also, it's been mentioned for some time about the dragons and Cersei is like "it's just three baby dragons" like they just got the news they were born, when they knew already way before that. Is Cersei just showing her stupid or is it fail writing? I can't even tell anymore.

If I remember correctly, in the books, the three dragons are just rumours and no one actually believes it.

God is such a bad writing. They have no idea

[Florina Laufeyson]

HOWEVER, I'm willing to look the other way since this way we got a scene with Salladhor Saan

Yeah, the more Salla, the better to be honest.

Also its Cersei being stupid. Tywin takes note of it but tries to pass it off as not much. (probably to not have the council freak out.) Oberyn's jimmies were rustled by those reports and Varys' findings on Dany's resources.

[Unlady B]

I really enjoyed this episode, but there are certain things that nagged me.

The thing that bothered me most is Asha reaching the Dreadfort by sea... Maybe I missed something, but the Dreadfort is not near the coast (not even in the show maps we see at the beginning), and even if it is, it's on opposite coast of Westeros. Did she go around the whole continent so fast?

And if she truly wanted to rescue Theon, she could have just knocked him out and drag him :thumbsdown:

Of course it's a filler story, with really no point but showing us that Theon is a wreck.

The other is the persistence of linking Oberyn and Ellaria to brothels. Come on! We got the idea already: they enjoy sex! You have one of the most interesting characters reduced to his adventures in a brothel.

And finally, the passiveness of Stannis. Davos saved the day (as usual).

[Duron Qel-Droma]

I have a minor catch: In Braavos, Tycho Nestoris says, that Tommen is "Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm". But at Tyrions trial Tommen himself says that Tywin is indeed the "protector of the Realm". So I think Tycho was wrong here? Or was he just using Tommen's full title in analogy of Stannis, being named "protector of the Realm" by Davos?

[Colonel Green]

The thing that bothered me most is Asha reaching the Dreadfort by sea... Maybe I missed something, but the Dreadfort is not near the coast (not even in the show maps we see at the beginning), and even if it is, it's on opposite coast of Westeros. Did she go around the whole continent so fast?

The Dreadfort is on the Weeping Water, a river that flows into the Shivering Sea.

Yes, Yara sailed around the continent. She said that was what she was going to do in 3.10.

[Unlady B]

The Dreadfort is on the Weeping Water, a river that flows into the Shivering Sea.

Yes, Yara sailed around the continent. She said that was what she was going to do in 3.10.

Well, I did missed that. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Miodrag]

Just wanted to add here that in the first episode Missandei told Dany that 1000 slaves died building the Great Pyramid. Would have been nice to see Dany make that connection to remind Hizdahr (and the audience) that his father was still not innocent, even if he didn't condone murdering the slave children. Again, they make it look like Dany just doesn't think (when, in reality, it's because the writers are the ones failing to make connections in their own writing).

As it stands, it looks like D&D took the wrong message from Dany's crucifixions. The problem, really, is not that some of them may have been innocent (that's obviously a problem, but Dany never truly punishes them FOR the crime itself anyway); the main problem is that it was ineffective. It provoked the Great Masters without significantly weakening them. She should have punished all of them, or punished none of them.

To tell you the truth, I don't blame Dany for crucifying those masters. She's removing the foundation of their lifestyle, their basic worldview, the pillar of their culture - the notion that by their birth they're better than other people. That is the essence of the most oppressive systems in history: one group of people is considered superior (and, simultaneously, some other group is considered inferior) simply because. Fighting a system rooted in such an oppression is never easy, and, practically, it's mutually exclusive with moral absolutism. Whoever thinks it's possible to overthrow such a system with a clean hands, is wrong. In Martin's world, just like in the period of human history Martin modeled his world after, slavery could've been overthrown only by force, e.g. a war. And if you fight a war, some innocent blood will be spilled. Will it outweigh the benefit is another matter, but there's no place for moral absolutism there. In short, each and every one of those masters Dany crucified was guilty of something pretty serious. Of course, not all of them were equally guilty and not everyone of them deserved the same punishment, but, if slavery is the indictment - and it is a serious charge - then not a single one of them was innocent. Under different system, some of those people wouldn't become villains. Under different circumstances, Dany wouldn't kill them all. Against some other opponent, Dany would possibly be the villain for what she did. But, this is not a different system, and these are not different circumstances. With her goal and her enemy, I think Dany's doing quite fine. Actually, in her shoes, I don't think I'd be as tolerant as she is.

But, regardless of what I think, it's obvious how complex an issue Dany's mission is. And Martin's very aware of it. He makes her confused before the complexity - just like any sane and normal and well-intended person would be. It's one thing to sit behind the computer and theorize about Dany's missteps or heroics, but it's quite another to fight actual and grave injustice of epic proportions. Now, to take that issue, and to boil it down to simplistic, irrelevant arguments a la "I just want to bury my father", that is one of the rare instances I can't help but think about how superior books are to the show. I usually don't need such comparisons, because the show is usually illogical or inconsistent or whatever on its own. But this, with Dany's war on slavery, this is something that can't be discussed without referring to the books.

If there is another story that so effectively and thoroughly and analytically depicts a fight against an oppression, I surely don't know of it. Nothing on this scale and of this nature ever happened in actual history, so only a fantasy story could tell such a tale. And, as far as I know, no fantasy story ever so much as attempted at anything similar, let alone pulled it. If I'm right, Dany's war on slavery is a unique story in many ways. And now there's an adaptation of it. Meaning, it's only natural to compare that adaptation to its source material. Littlefinger's and Varys' conspiracies and Cersei's coup and Arya's vengeance and Northern rebellion with RW and all the other story-lines of ASOIAF, while great, aren't as unique as Dany's is, and they can be measured against other stories. But Dany's war on slavery is, for better or worse, in a league of its own. And, judging by the first steps (the last two episodes), this adaptation is going to be a huge failure. She had like two scenes in liberated Meereeen, and both were sub-par, suffering from moral simplification - one thing that can make this story practically unwatchable.

I'm aware many readers dislike Dany's ADWD chapters. Hope nobody would mind, but I happen to think that, in most cases, that is because of some misplaced expectation that Dany should already be in Westeros. Or, possibly, because of Tyrion's and Quentyn's ADWD chapters, people had enough of Essoss. But, for adaptation, her stay in Meereen is a gem. It's one great dialogue after another, one impossible choice after another, one difficult decision after another - all the elements of great drama are there in abundance. While tricky in terms of production, when it comes to writing, Dany's ADWD chapters are as adaptable as anything in ASOIAF. But, if D&D continue down the road they seem to be taking (total neglect of the context), it's really going to be unwatchable.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Yeah, the more Salla, the better to be honest.

Also its Cersei being stupid. Tywin takes note of it but tries to pass it off as not much. (probably to not have the council freak out.) Oberyn's jimmies were rustled by those reports and Varys' findings on Dany's resources.

Varys is probably presenting Dany as a serious threat to the council in order to gauge the new council (first meeting of Tommen's reign!) and the new council members. Tywin, Cersei, and Pycelle are known quantities to him at this point, of course, but he really owes it to himself to get a read on what Oberyn and Mace are going to be like as council members as soon as possible.

Now he knows. Oberyn knows his shit when it comes to Essos (but he's possibly Targ-sympathetic, which is rather new for Varys when it comes to other council members). And Mace is just gonna get the coffee for whoever else is actually in charge :) so he's on Varys' "keeper" list of schmucks who'll keep this nation nice and soft and ripe for invasion.

[Mad Monkey]

Stormland's Fury, on 12 May 2014 - 4:45 PM, said:

I thought in the books it was more like Stannis overtook the Throne's standing debts as well, because Cersei stopped paying them. The show is much weirder about it since the Lannisters still pay and Tywin is still alive.

That works for Stannis but not the other way around. If Stannis wins, OK, he will pay off his own loan plus everything that Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen incurred. If the Lannisters win though, are they going to want to payoff the loans that Stannis incurred trying to overthrow them? That seems like it would an unreasonable request even from the Iron Bank.

"Daenerys has 8032 Unsullied, the Second Sons, 3 dragons, Jorah and Barristan Selmy are with her too. Oh, and she is sitting on a series of 5 different pillows when she receives supplicants, and shifts them around once per hour."

Apart from the pillow thing (which I'll admit was a stretch) none of these events would be hard to discover. Varys already knows that Jorah and Barristan are there. The Unsullied thing has to have been big news because it involved the collapse of Astapor; the fall of a major city, which would have taken place months ago now, would undoubtedly be talked about. The dragons too are renowned throughout the world -- this information even came to attention of Joffrey. The only bit that's a little fuzzy is the Second Sons, but even that's not exactly a secret since they went over to her during the siege of Yunkai.

Varys does have some improbable information but knowing about major political events like the fall of a major city and the presence of two prominent Westerosi noblemen (that he himself dispatched to Dany) aren't exactly leaps of insight.

[Le Cygne]

The other is the persistence of linking Oberyn and Ellaria to brothels. Come on! We got the idea already: they enjoy sex! You have one of the most interesting characters reduced to his adventures in a brothel.

Hedonism. He doesn't even want to get up in the morning. How does he stay so fit. Oh, wait...