Newstar Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Good summary, Annara Snow. Just to comment on a few of your points: - Most obviously, where little White Walkers come from. Some people called it a spoiler, but it was strongly hinted by one of the Craster wives True. Is it really a "spoiler" if it just confirms something that is currently happening in the books, if only "off-screen" (or outside the ambit of the POVs)? - They really are emphasizing Shireen's and Selyse's roles and stressing Mel's belief that Shireen is really important and must be at the Wall. It seems that they are strongly hinting at Melisandre planning for Shireen to be sacrificed. Maybe she wants her to be Stannis' Nissa Nissa?It does seem telling that two non-book scenes specifically emphasized Melisandre's sinister interest in Shireen, although it's hard to tell how much of that is just embroidering on the books (I think Carice van Houten or someone on the show talked about Melisandre viewing Shireen as a threat because she was skeptical when it came to Melisandre), and how much is foreshadowing something to come in the books.It's also likely she has a lot of stuff to do in future books/seasons, or else they wouldn't be speeding up her storyline like this. Are they really speeding up her storyline, though? This Vale tour business sounds like perfect filler material. Sansa could just as easily spend Season 5 tooling around the Vale with Littlefinger, interspersed with "leftover" bits from her AFFC arc (sweetsleep subplot, befriending Mya Stone, meeting Myranda Royce, becoming a mother figure to Sweetrobin, etc.), and ending with the same reveal which capped her AFFC arc: the planned marriage to Harry the Heir. - On that note, "Sansa is not a killer... yet" sounds like foreshadowing/hint. And am I the only one who thinks "Given the chance, what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?" sounds like a perfect callback line for Sansa to use when she finds out about LF's involvement in Ned's death? There does seem to be more of a focus on Sansa's desire for revenge in the show, between the "what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?" and Sansa commenting "I like the sound of that" when Robin promises to throw anyone she doesn't like out the Moon Door.- The Iron Bank is going to be helluva important. They made sure to mention it dozens of times. Not to mention casting Mark Gatiss for what in Season 4 was essentially a cameo. The Iron Bank is going to be very important, I agree. - It looks like Tyrion's anger and resentment of Jaime is not going to be a big plot point - or at least not that big that they can't bypass it or change it for the show. So either they won't meet again in the books, or Tyrion's anger will subside and he'll forgive Jaime, or the whole thing isn't going to play enough of a role that D&D can't employ their "no conflicts between good guys!!!" policy (see also: Tyrion and Sansa, Sansa and the Tyrells, Robb and Cat not finding out about the marriage, etc.). If D&D really did cut the Tysha reveal because they couldn't find a way to work it in, then that suggests that Jaime and Tyrion falling out in the books doesn't have big plot ramifications, since if it did, they would have found another way to ensure that they were estranged.t's clear there isn't going to be any significant conflict between them if they meet again If the books were tending towards Sansa vs. Tyrion (fighting over the Vale or something, who knows?), I do think that their relationship would have been written differently in the show. - I don't think the lack of Tysha reveal necessarily says anything about her role in the book I think that if Tysha's role in the books post-ADWD was very important, D&D would have found some way of shoehorning her backstory in. That isn't to say that she won't appear in the books in some way, shape or form, but I doubt it will be the be-all and end-all of Tyrion's arc.- We can draw conclusions which characters have roles to play and which don't... and those that don't tend to get killed off. Pyp and Grenn are not going to play any particularly important role (no surprise). Agreed, but I would just add that characters who don't have important roles to play in coming books tend to get preemptively written out as well, and we'll be seeing a lot of that for ADWD, as the casting news suggests.- GRRM is showing D&D his unpublished chapters ("Mercy" => "Two Swords") I could have sworn I saw something to the effect that GRRM showed D&D a draft of ADWD before it was published. GRRM feeding D&D unpublished TWOW chapters is consistent with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkash Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 It does seem telling that two non-book scenes specifically emphasized Melisandre's sinister interest in Shireen, although it's hard to tell how much of that is just embroidering on the books (I think Carice van Houten or someone on the show talked about Melisandre viewing Shireen as a threat because she was skeptical when it came to Melisandre), and how much is foreshadowing something to come in the books. My initial take on this is that Shireen will take the role of Mance baby for king's blood at the Wall but now, especially after the 4.08 scene, I think it's more book canon related and that Shireen will be quite important. I just dont think it has anything to do with sacrifice her and I think Mel saw something greater ahead for her. I like to compare (in my head) this situation to Jon's one regarding Mel. Most Unsullieds think Mel's interest in Jon in the finale means she wants to burn her whereas us Book-Walkers know better. I wouldnt be surprised if it turned out the same for Shireen. Us Book-walkers think Mel wants to burn her whereas she has greater plans for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Are they really speeding up her storyline, though? This Vale tour business sounds like perfect filler material. Sansa could just as easily spend Season 5 tooling around the Vale with Littlefinger, interspersed with "leftover" bits from her AFFC arc (sweetsleep subplot, befriending Mya Stone, meeting Myranda Royce, becoming a mother figure to Sweetrobin, etc.), and ending with the same reveal which capped her AFFC arc: the planned marriage to Harry the Heir. They could have easily stalled and ended her arc in season 4 with Lysa going out through the moon door. Instead they had her testify and reveal herself (covering/obliterating the need for the plot part of her first two AFFC chapters in the next season) and have a big moment where she is shown to be a "player", making the viewers really interested to see what she is going to do in season 5. It would be pretty anticlimactic if all she was shown doing next season was touring the Vale and meeting people and being about to be betrothed to someone again. Although there is significant book character development that the show still needs to cover (her relationship with Sweetrobin, her attitude to marriage, etc.), some sort of a big plot moment is needed, too. Even the characters who had a very light season 4 with just 3-4 episodes (Bran & co., Team Dragonstone, Theon & Ramsey) had one big climactic moment (meeting Bloodraven and the Children, saving the NW, taking Moat Cailin and Ramsey getting legitimized). Sansa's betrothal to Harry isn't quite that. I think that if Tysha's role in the books post-ADWD was very important, D&D would have found some way of shoehorning her backstory in. That isn't to say that she won't appear in the books in some way, shape or form, but I doubt it will be the be-all and end-all of Tyrion's arc. I never expected her to be all-important for Tyrion (thought she is important in terms of Tyrion's internal development, but the show has ignored a lot of it anyway), I'm just talking about the prospects of Tyrion finding out more about Tysha, either by meeting her or hearing about her fate from others. GRRM has said we may hear more about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 It would be pretty anticlimactic if all she was shown doing next season was touring the Vale and meeting people and being about to be betrothed to someone again. Hey, I agree it would be anticlimactic, and initially when I saw 4x08 my first thought was "Woohoo, TWOW full steam ahead!" but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to me that Sansa's Season 5 arc could instead just be covering the important leftover material from AFFC, and this Vale tour arc business could just be an elaborate stalling mechanism to keep Sansa busy until the other major POVs are ready to plunge into TWOW material in Season 6. Don't get me wrong, I would love the idea of Sansa'a arc forging ahead, but the show has used filler material to keep characters' arcs from getting out of whack before, so I'm leery of this Vale tour. Even the characters who had a very light season 4 with just 3-4 episodes (Bran & co., Team Dragonstone, Theon & Ramsey) had one big climactic moment (meeting Bloodraven and the Children, saving the NW, taking Moat Cailin and Ramsey getting legitimized). Sansa's betrothal to Harry isn't quite that. It's less the betrothal to Harry, since that's hardly impressive for Sansa--another day, another betrothal--and more Littlefinger's revelation of his grand plan: murdering Sweetrobin and using the Sansa/Harry marriage to control the North. It's a good "setup" moment for the next season, which is typically how finale episodes are written in this show. I suppose the show might edge into TWOW territory by showing how Sansa reacts to learning of this plan, but that would be some pretty paltry TWOW spoilage. GRRM has said we may hear more about her. That's true, but that doesn't mean that Tyrion will meet her again, or even find out more about what happened to her. She could very well pop up in one of the non-Tyrion Essos POVs without ever crossing paths with Tyrion (and, if you buy the Sailor's Wife = Tysha theory, she already has). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 My initial take on this is that Shireen will take the role of Mance baby for king's blood at the Wall but now, especially after the 4.08 scene, I think it's more book canon related and that Shireen will be quite important. I just dont think it has anything to do with sacrifice her and I think Mel saw something greater ahead for her. I like to compare (in my head) this situation to Jon's one regarding Mel. Most Unsullieds think Mel's interest in Jon in the finale means she wants to burn her whereas us Book-Walkers know better. I wouldnt be surprised if it turned out the same for Shireen. Us Book-walkers think Mel wants to burn her whereas she has greater plans for her. EW interview the group at Comic Con and they asked Kit about the stare through the flames. He said that we could look forward to there being more interaction between him and Carice next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 My initial take on this is that Shireen will take the role of Mance baby for king's blood at the Wall but now, especially after the 4.08 scene, I think it's more book canon related and that Shireen will be quite important. I just dont think it has anything to do with sacrifice her and I think Mel saw something greater ahead for her. I like to compare (in my head) this situation to Jon's one regarding Mel. Most Unsullieds think Mel's interest in Jon in the finale means she wants to burn her whereas us Book-Walkers know better. I wouldnt be surprised if it turned out the same for Shireen. Us Book-walkers think Mel wants to burn her whereas she has greater plans for her. I don't think the plans for Shireen have anything to do with king's blood. There are other people with king's blood Mel could sacrifice, and she hasn't even tried to, in spite of Jon's fears (she didn't seem devastated to lose Maester Aemon, for one) - and there's no indication that she even thinks she needs to burn people with king's blood at this point. If she thinks Shireen needs to be sacrificed, I think it would more likely be because she thinks Stannis needs a Nissa Nissa, and who else could play that role? Certainly not Selyse, and not Davos either going by the way Stannis has treated him so far. (The Nissa Nissa story, of course, has not been revealed in the show, but it could be when it becomes relevant.) The show seems to be trying to show that Stannis does love Shireen in his own way, even if he doesn't show it well (unlike show!Selyse, who doesn't seem to care about Shireen much). Of course, if that is the case, Mel would not be burning Shireen, certainly not without Stannis' permission, because the whole point would be that Stannis as Azor Ahai reborn would have to decide to sacrifice her. But Shireen could also be important for some other reason that is not about being sacrificed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I saw this really interesting interpretation of the HOTU scene and though I'd share it: http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/pschmid1/?p=330It's a couple of years old but still relevant, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeParking Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Thought was a good read. Thanks for posting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Thought was a good read. Thanks for posting that. You are very welcome. I especially like this part: "Chained, Dany in the HBO version learns how to unleash some of her dragons’ powers—just as she has repeatedly discovered strength before in the face of others, especially men, doubting or betraying or trying to capture her. But the dragons are not just about Dany having better weaponry. Dany’s dragons are both “real” yet also allegories for Dany’s own inner strengths of character, ones she must gradually discover. In the endings of each of the first two seasons of Game of Thrones, Dany walked through fire to make her new powers born. And we know there are more to come." During the Dany re-read we discussed how in Meereen she first started with chaining her dragons and then she slowly chained herself, finally culminating in her marriage to Hizzy which ends in an almost literal chaining. She finally releases herself from that by Drogon's appears, her dragon saved her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/30/7951291/game-of-thrones-season-5-trailer-leak OMG!!! what a sick trailer.. Apparently HBO likes our girl :) MOIAF what you think of that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Sooo...who else thinks Sansa is going to take over Lady Stoneheart's role? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Sooo...who else thinks Sansa is going to take over Lady Stoneheart's role? That is an interesting idea. I haven't given up on Stoneheart yet. I'm assuming we've heard nothing about Michelle Fairley returning, but what about the guys who play Thoros and Beric? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 That preview is so confusing! Who was that person whipping the barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 That preview is so confusing! Who was that person whipping the barrel? One of the Sands snakes, not sure which. Edit: Probably Obara if they are true to the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 ah that makes sense. And did you see Drogon?!!!! grrrrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/30/7951291/game-of-thrones-season-5-trailer-leak OMG!!! what a sick trailer.. Apparently HBO likes our girl :) MOIAF what you think of that!!! It's good. At first I was a little meh, but I've come around to it the more I watch it. There are some really awesome effect like the harpy coming down and I cannot wait until Daznak's Pit, that is going to be epic. I like how they are building Jon up as a hero, they even show him when the song says hero. It'll make it all the more shocking when they kill him (or injure him) this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 And I guess Varys is going to be flat out travelling with Tyrion all the way to Dany. I really hope Illyrio makes another appearance though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 And I guess Varys is going to be flat out travelling with Tyrion all the way to Dany. I really hope Illyrio makes another appearance though. Actually, I think that Varys will be going to Dorne or King's Landing. Kevin is in this season so there might be some Kevin-killin' I refuse to believe that Varys will be backing Dany, it makes no sense and I don't want to accept it.... :p Drogon is going to be ginormous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Actually, I think that Varys will be going to Dorne or King's Landing. Kevin is in this season so there might be some Kevin-killin' I refuse to believe that Varys will be backing Dany, it makes no sense and I don't want to accept it.... :P Drogon is going to be ginormous. Maybe Varys will just get Tyrion to Illyrio then turn around and head back. Idk about where Varys's loyalties lie. He did make that comment about "who said anything about him" cut to Dany. (which was so sick). And since there is zero Blackfyre backstory so far on the show, I just dont see how they could bring it in at this point...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 That preview is so confusing! Who was that person whipping the barrel?I posted this in another thread. This is the scenes and people that I can make out.http://winteriscomin...ason-5-trailer/Jaime in the Sept. (Cersei walking out as it fades in, left side of screen, walking towards camera's left)Quick shot of the Vale? Cersei in a palanquin, looking at Jaime. (Is Jamie in there with her? His background was different...I think his shot is still him in the sept with Tywin)Boats rowing to a village in the North. Looks like Hardhome, possibly.Bronn drawing a sword (In Dorne)BRAZEN BEASTS! (or Sons of the Harpy)Little Finger schooling Sansa. ("There is no Justice in this World, Unless we make it. Avenge Them!")Nymeria Sand using her whipTyene Sand, Obara Sand and someone else under the canopySunspearWildlings heading into the waterYoung Cersei cutting her thumbTommen and Margaery. Standing in the Great Sept of Baelor. With a Septon behind them…Wildlings marchingVarys and Tyrion together. Varys giving adviceAt the wall...someone is about to be torched for MelisandreVarys & Tyrion walking through a marketHorsemen in the ValeJon Snow...looking melancholy Sansa taking a bath? She looks really, really worried!Young Cersei & Melara Hetherspoon walking in the woodsWildlings at a closed fort gate.Dany “I’m not going to stop the wheel, I’m going to break the wheel”.Ser Jorah fighting in the pits of MeereenCersei looking at Myrcella's necklace sent from Dorne (Viper in a Box)Cersei “That little monster is out there, somewhere drawing breath”.Melisandre and fire, lots of fire.Bearded Tyrion!Jon Snow rallying the troops “With me!”.Jaime is Dorne and a beautiful woman turning (not sure who is trying to seduce Jaime...Jaimie is probably taking over Arys Oakheart's role...and this woman is taking the place of ArianneLady Olenna! “They’ll never even find what’s left of you”.Quick battle scene at the wallQuick battle in Dorne (Jaime falling down?)Another shot of a Brazen Beast....or Quaithe? REEKBronn and Jaime fighting a mounted DornishmanThe Sparrows in KL with the High Sparrow voice overArya in front of the House of Black and White...knocking politely Arya picking up Needle (High Sparrow (Septon) say "And this is what remains")A mounted group of House Arryn menView of a map...possibly of the North, looks like the Flayed Man symbol from House Bolton (Stannis' map?)Varys: “The Seven Kingdoms needs a ruler loved by millions with a powerful army and the right family name”.Tyrion: “Good luck finding him”.Varys: “Who said anything about him”.Dany looking at a big dragon breathing fire!People in boats being dragged down by arms from the water (dead things in the water...or desperate Wildlings?)Missandei kissing Grey Worm!Gladiator fight in Daznak’s Pit with Dany in her white dress, in the background.Melisandre disrobing Unsullied with Daenerys, Daario and Barristan in towAnother shot of DorneTyene Sand at spearpoint?A Wildling with a big axe.Brienne & Pod racing on horseback?More Brazen Beasts (or Sons of the Harpy)Margaery hugging Tommen's waist with a deceiving look in her eyeChaos in Daznak’s Pit with Dany and her entourage being protected by the Unsullied (Just before Drogon is to Land???)Crow feasting on a dead body in a cageThe fall of the Harpy!04.12.15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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