The Ten Thousand Ships Extract

[HexMachina]

So, its up :)

Was a very interesting read, enjoyed it a lot. I was somewhat surprised that Nymeria fought in Garin's army; as I was reading I assumed she would separate from him and lead some of the Rhoynar away. Obviously thats not wjat happened though. I imagine she escaped in the War Galleys, or was on the Western shore of the Rhoyne amd fled overland, since Volantis held the mouth of the Rhoyne.

Also.interesting to hear more of the Old Men (not man) of the River, amd that while rare and special, they are not unique.

Also, the Rhoynar seem.almost as powerful (magically) as the Children - resding this brought to mind the Breaking of the Arm and the Hammer of the Waters.

Anyway, loved it. Can't wait for Ocober...

Discuss :)

[Free Northman Reborn]

A number of observations:

1. Timeline

So the Valyrian-Rhoynish conflicts only started 1250 years ago, ending 1000 years ago. Interesting. One wonders how long the peaceful coexistence between the Valyrians and Rhoynar lasted. Traditional dating would hold that since the Valyrians encountered the Rhoynar immediately after the end of the Ghiscari wars, the period of peaceful coexistence could have been from around 4500 years ago to 1250 years ago. 3000 years? That seems unlikely. Could it be that Valyria is younger than previously thought and that the wars with Ghis only ended much later than originally thought?

2. Rhoynar

It is interesting that the Rhoynish civilization is as old as Old Ghis. Meaning it is probably one of the original civilizations founded after the Long Night, perhaps along with Ghis and Ashai, in the known world.

3. Magic

It is clear that the four elements as depicted in Jojen and Meera's ancient oath represent 4 very real branches of magic. They swore by Earth and Water, and by Ice and Fire.

Up to now we knew that Ice magic exists in the form of the Others.

We knew that Fire magic exists as practiced by the Red Priests and Valyrian sorcerors.

We also found out that the Children are known as Those Who Sing The Song Of The Earth, thus naming them as practitioners of Earth magic.

And now at last we know there were very real practitioners of Water magic, in the form of the Rhoynar wizards.

Very, very interesting.

4. Population size of the Rhoynish civilization

If 250k men truly represented a significant portion of all the men of spear wielding age, then the Rhoynar numbered maybe 3 million at most.

This is a paltry number compared to the 40 million or so people in Westeros. Westeros truly is a super power compared to any other nation so far identified in the Ice and Fire world. Even the Dothraki number only two dozen Khalasars. Drogo's was the largest, at 100k people. So at most the Dothraki number 2.5 million people in total. Again, a mere fraction of the population of Westeros.

That too is very interesting.

Those are my immediate thoughts on the excerpt

[TheCrannogDweller]

For starters, I think Nymeria looks remarkably like Haylee Atwell. Also, I don't know why, but I was under the impression that she was Garin's widow, which the extract completely disproves (apparently).

I wonder if some of those Water magic skills/knowledge survived the Rhoynar exodus and are kept as the Martell's closely-guarded secrets.

And adding those two together may be why Aegon didn't commit his entire might and all of his dragons to finish the Conquest of Dorne. He may have suspected that the Dornishmen possessed some of that Water magic.

Adding a point to Free Northman Reborn's observations: apparently the Rhoynar civilization predates the Andal invasion. Maybe they're even the reason why the Andals eventually moved away.

[HexMachina]

Doesn't is say that many Andal conquerors learned of the fierceness of the Rhoynar? I think your observation is quite likely.

On Meraxes; good question. I thought she died at the Hellholt, but I dont remember where I read that (or where in Dorne it is)

Also, maybe Aegon was unaware of the Rhoynish magic? It would be pretty old in terms of history by his time, and.could be considered exaggerated tales mixed with legends, if it was told at all

[Free Northman Reborn]

For starters, I think Nymeria looks remarkably like Haylee Atwell. Also, I don't know why, but I was under the impression that she was Garin's widow, which the extract completely disproves (apparently).

I wonder if some of those Water magic skills/knowledge survived the Rhoynar exodus and are kept as the Martell's closely-guarded secrets.

I also wonder if a scorpion bolt wasn't the only reason for Meraxes's death.

And adding those two together may be why Aegon didn't commit his entire might and all of his dragons to finish the Conquest of Dorne. He may have suspected that the Dornishmen possessed some of that Water magic.

Adding a point to Free Northman Reborn's observations: apparently the Rhoynar civilization predates the Andal invasion. Maybe they're even the reason why the Andals eventually moved away.

We knew since Dance that the Rhoynar were a much older and much more advanced civilization than the Andals. Illyrio tells Tyrion that the Andals would have learned the art of Ironworking from the Rhoynar.

Another thing that struck me, is that Rhoynish ancestral memories of the aftermath of Garin's defeat may have been behind Dorne's particularly steadfast refusal to accept Targaryen rule. Maybe some hatred of the Dragonlords was passed down the generations after Nymeria's landing.

[Ran]

The Dornish have extremely strong feelings against any would-be invaders. Special feelings over descendants of the people who drove some of their ancestors from Mother Rhoyne... yeah, not impossible. :)

[TheCrannogDweller]

Another thing that struck me, is that Rhoynish ancestral memories of the aftermath of Garin's defeat may have been behind Dorne's particularly steadfast refusal to accept Targaryen rule. Maybe some hatred of the Dragonlords was passed down the generations after Nymeria's landing.

Maybe that was also part of why the Blackfyre rebellion happened. "Dornish influence" in this case may mean "Rhoynish influence" in a traditionally Valyrian royal House and Andal court.

Also, the 300 dragons the Valyrians deployed may give us a relative number for their entire strength. To make it easier to count, I'd say that they deployed 3/4 of their entire dragon "fleet" ("flock", "forge"?) so their total would amount to 400. Which would mean an average of 10 battle-ready dragons per family. That may be an inkling as to why the Targaryens were a midlevel House - they only had 5 at the time of Aenar's exile.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

3. Magic

It is clear that the four elements as depicted in Jojen and Meera's ancient oath represent 4 very real branches of magic. They swore by Earth and Water, and by Ice and Fire.

Up to now we knew that Ice magic exists in the form of the Others.

We knew that Fire magic exists as practiced by the Red Priests and Valyrian sorcerors.

We also found out that the Children are known as Those Who Sing The Song Of The Earth, thus naming them as practitioners of Earth magic.

And now at last we know there were very real practitioners of Water magic, in the form of the Rhoynar wizards.

Very, very interesting.

I would definitely conclude that the Rhoynar sang the Song of Water.

Don't forget the tales of the founding of Storm's End, the old religion from the Three Sisters, and the somewhat inverted religion of the Ironborn, all with sea and storm/wind magic references. Dany even mentions aeromancers in aGoT.

Add in blood magic, and we're back to my old Seven Songs hypothesis from Heresy 1.

ETA - here's the link:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59571-the-wall-the-watch-and-a-heresy/page-17#entry2844942

Some possibly antiquated ideas are included there.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Dornish have extremely strong feelings against any would-be invaders. Special feelings over descendants of the people who drove some of their ancestors from Mother Rhoyne... yeah, not impossible. :)

Ran, thanks for the excerpt.

One question:

I found a curious timegap in the introduction. It starts by dating the first incursions of the Valyrians into the Rhoyne as "immediately after the last Ghiscari war", which would have been 4500 years ago or so according to the timeline. But then he narrative moves swiftly past the establishment of Valyrian outposts along the Rhoyne and suddenly we get to the first of a long series of Valyrian-Rhoynish conflicts. The listing of all the various "Turtle" wars and other battles makes it sound like this went on for a very long time, but then we are told that all of these wars lasted just 250 years, culminating in Garin's big war.

So what happened in the intervening 3000 years or so?

What I find strange is that the suggestion is that it didn't take long for the Roynar to start regretting the generosity their ancestors displayed by welcoming the Valyrians along the Rhoyne. But if the conflicts only lasted 250 years, then there are about 3000 years unaccounted for in that historical account, which would mean that the Rhoynar in fact took VERY long before they regretted their ancestors' welcoming nature.

What gives? Is there something that we don't know?

[AzureOwl]

Another very interesting detail is the fact that the Valyrian colonies were entirely self ruling. I did not expect that. It means that the Freehold of Valyria was even less like a conventional empire than we imagined.

But it fits remarkably well with other information we have...

• It explains why the Free Cities are called Free Cities.
  
• It explains why the Free Cities had no unified government in place when the Doom took Valyria out of the equation
  
• It makes the Volantines even bigger dicks for trying to conquer all the other Valyrian colonies. They weren't trying to fill in for a missing imperial government, they were trying to create one!
  
• It explains how the Kingdom of Sarnor was able to maintain its entire political organization intact until after the Doom.
  
• It explains why the dragonlords were so understanding about Braavos' existence and the Unmasking of Uthero.
  

[Free Northman Reborn]

Another very interesting detail is the fact that the Valyrian colonies were entirely self ruling. I did not expect that. It means that the Freehold of Valyria was even less like a conventional empire than we imagined.

But it fits remarkably well with other information we have...

• It explains why the Free Cities are called Free Cities.

It explains why the Free Cities had no unified government in place when the Doom took Valyria out of the equation

It makes the Volantines even bigger dicks for trying to conquer all the other Valyrian colonies. They weren't trying to fill in for a missing imperial government, they were trying to create one!

It explains how the Kingdom of Sarnor was able to maintain its entire political organization intact until after the Doom.

It explains why the dragonlords were so understanding about Braavos' existence and the Unmasking of Uthero.

And why all the Dragolords perished in the Doom. The ones with Dragons didn't like leaving the Peninsula unless they really had to.

[Mithras]

Rhoynar seem to be a matrilineal and peaceful society. Bugger the Valyrians and their monsters :D

[Free Northman Reborn]

Rhoynar seem to be a matrilineal and peaceful society. Bugger the Valyrians and their monsters :D

Garin's treatment after his defeat reminds me of Caesar's treatment of that Gallic king who united the Gallic clans into armies 100,000 strong, before being defeated by the Roman legions.

Wasn't he stripped naked and kept in a cage or something, while the women and children of his people were marched off to slavery?

I hated the Romans with a passion after reading that bit of history, many years ago.

[AzureOwl]

Rhoynar seem to be a matrilineal and peaceful society. Bugger the Valyrians and their monsters :D

Peaceful? Not expansionist, yes... but I wouldn't go as far as calling them peaceful. ;)

[Free Northman Reborn]

I would also put money on the likelihood that Tyrion's weird timeloop on the Royne was caused by some leftover Water Magic that made the boat go around in a strange Twilight Zone circle, somehow.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I would also put money on the likelihood that Tyrion's weird timeloop on the Royne was caused by some leftover Water Magic that made the boat go around in a strange Twilight Zone circle, somehow.

A Water Magic Temporal Whirlpool, perhaps?

[Ser Lepus]

If their foes had magic too, that helps explain the history of the Valyrian Freehold. How it took them so much time to conquer the Rhoynar and the Ghiscarians, how come Garin could fight them, how come Qarth wasn't conquered...etc.

Also, it seems that all the dragonlords lived in Valyria proper, and only flew out of there in dire occasions. Garin has time to destroy many Valyrian cities and towns before the dragonlords bothered to send a powerful dragon force. I guess the dragonlords, being freeholders (each owned a portion of Valyria as their own property and ruled it as they saw fit) didn't care much what happened outside their own turf, unless the danger was great of there was a chance for profit.

[Mark Antony]

300 Dragons :O:

[The hairy bear]

I wonder if there was any attempt to resettle the ancient Rhoynar cities after the Doom of Valyria. It surprises me that Dorne didn't join the alliance between Aegon, Argilac, Tyrosh and Pentos against Volantis, as destroying the city would allow to return to the Royne. Pehaps they had tried before, and had been sorely defeated.

I wonder if some of those Water magic skills/knowledge survived the Rhoynar exodus and are kept as the Martell's closely-guarded secrets.

I don't think so. They are "lying" to make the rest of the kingdoms believe that they are stronger than they really are. If they could use water as a weapon, they'd be spreading that rumor.

Peaceful? Not expansionist, yes... but I wouldn't go as far as calling them peaceful. ;)

Why not peaceful? They welcomed strangers in their land, and didn't attack until provoked.

[Lord Varys]

It's not entirely clarified, but it really seems as if the dragonlords did indeed not live outside the Lands of the Long Summer/Valyria itself. I'd not go as far as to assume that 300 hundred dragons were nearly all they strength, possibly somewhat over a half of it. There is still Prince Daemon interesting remark from TPatQ that there were several Valyrian civil wars involving dragons, indicating that they may have had at times many, many dragons.

I'm not sure if the Valyrian colonies were self-ruling in a strict sense. It's mentioned that the Volantene leadership was closely related to the dragonlords of the Freehold, so it seems that upper class of every big Valyrian colony consisted of, say, the Valyrian nobility just below the ruling class of the dragonlords.

In a sense it seems as if the lesser Valyrians spread their culture and lifestyle, founding colonies and such, enriching the homeland through by establish cities to trade with (and exploit) other peoples with the knowledge that they had back at home were the guys with the big guns who would eventually fly in and save the day should they face really big problems... The very structure of Valyrian society never suggested that they ruled the colonies with governors or something like that, similar to Roman pro-consuls or British vice-kings. I guess there would have been official representatives of the ruling body of the Freehold collecting taxes and stuff in the major cities, but that should have been it.

It's good that's confirmed now that the Valyrians first turned east and then west, that's really mirroring the expansion of the Roman Empire.