The Ten Thousand Ships Extract

[AzureOwl]

This excerpt is a real eye opener with regards to what we have been calling the “Valyrian Empire”.

Because of its role in its world’s history and its form of government, we have mostly been assuming that its organization resembled that of the Roman Empire, but it appears we were wrong. The territories outside of the Valyrian Peninsula were not organized into provinces or ruled by governors appointed by the Valyrian “Senate”.

Instead it looks like every colony was in fact a sort of private enterprise, carried out by private citizens and adventurers and no actual support from the Peninsular government. (For the purpose of clarity I will mimic my own countries history and call the Valyrians from the Valyrian Peninsula proper “peninsulars” and the Valyrian colonists “creoles”. ;) )

From what we see in this excerpt I would assume that every colony was founded by a private group of Valyrians, probably organized like a miniature East India Company. The fact that entire Valyrian creole towns and cities were completely destroyed over the course of the centuries in different wars without eliciting an overwhelming response from the peninsulars is very telling. The bulk of the wars were fought by the creoles, and they only called upon the Freehold when hard pressed. And given that the peninsulars had access to glass candles and dragons we can safely assume that they were very aware of what was going on and decided not to intervene unless called upon.

This means that the peninsulars did not see an attack on these colonies as attacks on the Freehold’s territory. Otherwise every war would’ve resulted in a response from the Freehold itself.

So the picture we have is that of a wealthy, cohesive nation which had spheres of influence and probably collected some tribute, but did not directly ruled those lands.

This also explains why so much knowledge (like sorcery and advanced metallurgy) and the dragons themselves were lost when Valyria was destroyed. The peninsulars didn’t trust the creoles with their more advanced technology because they were not under their direct control and they were for the most part a bunch of greedy filibusters.

It also explains their relationship with Qarth. The Freehold itself probably had no interest in territorial expansion beyond the conquered lands of the Old Ghiscari Empire, and the Valyrian filibusters knew better than to cross the Warlocks of Qarth.

We should probably stop thinking of the Valyrians as one monolithic culture. The peninsulars seem to have been marginally more tolerant and enlightened than their colonial cousins.

[Ser Lepus]

I wonder if there was any attempt to resettle the ancient Rhoynar cities after the Doom of Valyria. It surprises me that Dorne didn't join the alliance between Aegon, Argilac, Tyrosh and Pentos against Volantis, as destroying the city would allow to return to the Royne. Pehaps they had tried before, and had been sorely defeated.

And fight on the side of a DRAGONLORD? No way, let those Valyrians kill each other, and whatever happen the Dornish/Rhoynar will win.

Also, Lys, Myr, Pentos and Tyrosh probably were a lot more culturally and etnically Valyrian at that time, right after the Doom, that they are today, particularly their ruling class. The Dornish would see their wars as Valyrian vs Valyrian fights.

And I don't think most of the Dornish were eager to return to the Rhoyne. They had been living in Westeros for 700 years, the Rhoynar cities were in ruins, the shores of the Rhoyne were deserted and the playground of the Dothraki, and I don't think the genocide of all the Volantene would be an easy task, even for Aegon and his dragons, even if he were willing to go that far (why would he wish to help the Dornish to kill the Volantene? He didn't have anything against them, he was fighting them only because they were becoming too powerful and reaching too close to Westeros).

This excerpt is a real eye opener with regards to what we have been calling the “Valyrian Empire”.

Because of its role in its world’s history and its form of government, we have mostly been assuming that its organization resembled that of the Roman Empire, but it appears we were wrong. The territories outside of the Valyrian Peninsula were not organized into provinces or ruled by governors appointed by the Valyrian “Senate”.

Instead it looks like every colony was in fact a sort of private enterprise, carried out by private citizens and adventurers and no actual support from the Peninsular government. (For the purpose of clarity I will mimic my own countries history and call the Valyrians from the Valyrian Peninsula proper “peninsulars” and the Valyrian colonists “creoles”. ;) )

From what we see in this excerpt I would assume that every colony was founded by a private group of Valyrians, probably organized like a miniature East India Company. The fact that entire Valyrian creole towns and cities were completely destroyed over the course of the centuries in different wars without eliciting an overwhelming response from the peninsulars is very telling. The bulk of the wars were fought by the creoles, and they only called upon the Freehold when hard pressed. And given that the peninsulars had access to glass candles and dragons we can safely assume that they were very aware of what was going on and decided not to intervene unless called upon.

This means that the peninsulars did not see an attack on these colonies as attacks on the Freehold’s territory. Otherwise every war would’ve resulted in a response from the Freehold itself.

So the picture we have is that of a wealthy, cohesive nation which had spheres of influence and probably collected some tribute, but did not directly ruled those lands.

This also explains why so much knowledge (like sorcery and advanced metallurgy) and the dragons themselves were lost when Valyria was destroyed. The peninsulars didn’t trust the creoles with their more advanced technology because they were not under their direct control and they were for the most part a bunch of greedy filibusters.

It also explains their relationship with Qarth. The Freehold itself probably had no interest in territorial expansion beyond the conquered lands of the Old Ghiscari Empire, and the Valyrian filibusters knew better than to cross the Warlocks of Qarth.

We should probably stop thinking of the Valyrians as one monolithic culture. The peninsulars seem to have been marginally more tolerant and enlightened than their colonial cousins.

We already knew that the Valyrian Freehold was nothing but an alliance of landholders, each of which owned a huge chunk of land that they ruled as they saw fit, and voted to decide matters that affected all of them.

And the Peninsular Valyrians weren't nice. The fact the Colonial Valyrians were so focused on enslaving other people was because the Dragonlords bought them slaves by the tens of thousands and sent them to work in their mines, that were under f*cking active volcanos, and inhabited by carnivorous firewyrms.

[AzureOwl]

I'm embarrassed to admint that its taken me until this excerpt to realize why the Dornish didn't have a more urban culture like the one the Rhoynar had left behind in Essos.

They realized cities are huge targets for dragonfire.

[The hairy bear]

Ser Lepus,

You are right, most Dornish probably didn't want to come back: I've confused the desires of the Orphans of the Greenblood with the general Dornish sentiement. Nymeria burned her ships, after all.

[AzureOwl]

And fight on the side of a DRAGONLORD? No way, let those Valyrians kill each other, and whatever happen the Dornish/Rhoynar will win.

Also, Lys, Myr, Pentos and Tyrosh probably were a lot more culturally and etnically Valyrian at that time, right after the Doom, that they are today, particularly their ruling class. The Dornish would see their wars as Valyrian vs Valyrian fights.

There's also the fact that Argilac and the Stormlands were involved in the fight against Volantis. The animosity against the Valyrians may have been ancient and longstanding but the stormlords were enemies and rivals that they were in constant conflict with, right then.

[Mithras]

Some Greenblood orphans returned to Rhoyne. Yandry and Ysilla are of them.

[Maia]

Well, Valyria does look somewhat like Roman Republic before the Italian Wars, no? I.e. when it was still a Republic proper and not that late pre-Imperial stuff. What, with the colonies being pretty much independent and all.

It makes sense that other cultures had magic too, or Valyrians would have had it pretty easy, even without their dragons. It seems that the Andals were the only culture without notable magic... And that may have been the reason why they were squeezed out of Essos.

Re: 1000 years, I don't believe it. The ruins of Rhoynish cities, some of which were built from wood (!) are still standing and in recognizable shape, as per Tyrion's PoV. Cut it the time-span in half.

Ditto the wars with Old Ghis, only cut it even more. Nothing is as ancient as they boast it is.

Dothraki didn't seem to be a factor during the heyday of Rhoynish civilization either - I wonder were they come from.

It is interesting that judging by the Edelweiss catalog excerpt, Valyrians were responsible for the Andal migration too. I.e. it also happened later than Westerosi believe.

[AzureOwl]

Dothraki didn't seem to be a factor during the heyday of Rhoynish civilization either - I wonder were they come from.

the entry for the Kingdom of Sarnor in the App says the Dothraki came out of the far east after the Doom of Valyria. It seems that their ancient homeland was only the plains around Vaes Dothrak, between the forests of the Kingdom of the Ifeqevron and the Bone Mountains.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Water magic is interesting, tbh. Tides, waterspouts and Yandry or Ysilla said that Mother Rhoyne runs wherever she wants so I think the Bridge of Dreams was a case of water magic, rather than a time loop.

It's said Mother Rhoyne whispered them any danger before it occured, so I think it's same with Alys Rivers' water reading?

We have all four elemental magic now. Fire magic by Valyrians/red priests/pyromancers, earth magic by the CotF, water magic by Rhoynar and air magic by the eastern stormsingers and aeromancers. Then there is ice magic by the Others and shadow/light magic by the Shadowbinders of Asshai, blood magic by maegies.

[The hairy bear]

Is it too early for crackpot theories? I hope not. :)

The straight Valyrian roads between Ar Noy and Qohor, and between Norvos/Pentos and Ghoban Drobe, are bugging me. Should we assume that the roads were constructed before the war, or that those cities were first conquered and destroyed much later?

I think the later makes more sense. After Garin had been killed and Nymeria had fleed, there was no reason to raze all the cities. But if those two Northern Rhoynar cities were spared, could Norvos and/or Qohor have been Rhoynish cities too? There may be some circumstantial evidence in that direction:

• They are both in the banks of the Rhoyne.
  
• Doran Martell married Mellario of Norvos.
  
• The Rhoynar were reputedly great smiths. Qohorik blacksmiths are also renowned.
  
• The Rhoynar people believed Mother Rhoyne had failed them and adopted the Seven once they reached Westeros. Norvos and Qohor have unique, weird religions: the bearded priests and the black goat.
  

Not much, really. But the straight roads are really hard to explain.

[Salt 'n' Gravy]

For starters, I think Nymeria looks remarkably like Haylee Atwell. Also, I don't know why, but I was under the impression that she was Garin's widow, which the extract completely disproves (apparently).

I thought she was Garin's sister, but it seems as if I was wrong, too.

I was drooling through the whole read, and the mental image of three hundred dragons made me squeal.

Garin's treatment after his defeat reminds me of Caesar's treatment of that Gallic king who united the Gallic clans into armies 100,000 strong, before being defeated by the Roman legions.

Wasn't he stripped naked and kept in a cage or something, while the women and children of his people were marched off to slavery?

I hated the Romans with a passion after reading that bit of history, many years ago.

Well, at least this guy got his revenge. Gray Plague FTW!

[Caerl Targaryen]

This is awesome. Thanks for posting this, Ran. :D

[Veltigar]

Very good read :)

[AzureOwl]

We already knew that the Valyrian Freehold was nothing but an alliance of landholders, each of which owned a huge chunk of land that they ruled as they saw fit, and voted to decide matters that affected all of them.

And the Peninsular Valyrians weren't nice. The fact the Colonial Valyrians were so focused on enslaving other people was because the Dragonlords bought them slaves by the tens of thousands and sent them to work in their mines, that were under f*cking active volcanos, and inhabited by carnivorous firewyrms.

I said they were marginally more tolerant, not that they were saints. ;)

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

300 dragons? :eek: Damn...

[The Wolves]

300 dragons? :eek: Damn...

Right!!! They was like "feck it we're going all out"

[Faint]

Strange how Tolkien and Martin always make the past more grand than the present within their self-created worlds.

[-Ghost-]

Water magic? That's awesome. I'm hoping some of those secrets passed down through the Martells.

Is the hammer of the waters that the CotF did water magic?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Water magic? That's awesome. I'm hoping some of those secrets passed down through the Martells.

Is the hammer of the waters that the CotF did water magic?

It seems like it

The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door.- Maester Luwin

“The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck.

The description of the doom also seems interesting, as water drowned it.

On the day the Doom came to Valyria, it was said, a wall of water three hundred feet high had

descended on the island, drowning hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children, leaving none

to tell the tale but some fisherfolk who had been at sea and a handful of Velosi spearmen posted in a

stout stone tower on the island’s highest hill, who had seen the hills and valleys beneath them turn into

a raging sea. Fair Velos with its palaces of cedar and pink marble had vanished in a heartbeat. On the

north end of the island, the ancient brick walls and stepped pyramids of the slaver port Ghozai had

suffered the same fate.

[RumHam]

Water magic? That's awesome. I'm hoping some of those secrets passed down through the Martells.

Is the hammer of the waters that the CotF did water magic?

It could be, it's also possible they created the same effect with "earth magic" by sinking the ground into the earth.