R+L=J v.83

[UnmaskedLurker]

Although IF we get to the end of Season 5 and George is not done with TWoW yet, my vote is for a season heavy in flashbacks. This would slow down the TV show a bit so that the books could catch up.

I believe this sort of suggestion has been brought up and completely rejected. My understanding is that D&D have stated that there cannot be any break in the filming to the end, and the series cannot last more than about 7 seasons. The main reason is actor schedules and actor ages. These actors are rapidly aging out of their characters (poor Bran--he had such a growth spurt way too early). They also cannot tie up the actors forever. So they have pretty definitively said that there will be probably 7 seasons and there will be no breaks in the action. Of course, they can always change their minds, but these reasons seem pretty solid. Sorry to disappoint, but better to get used to the idea now so that when it happens you will have had years to get used to it.

[BearQueen87]

Kit will be doing that scene long before GRRM writes it. The show will pass up the books in the 6th or 7th season of the series.

And this is what I'm really scared of. I was a book lover first and foremost. I don't want to be spoiled by the TV show. If they get dangerously close to giving it all away, I might have to stop watching. And the wait for WOW feels longer/worse than the one we endured for ADWD

*crosses fingers* Come on, GRRM.

[UnmaskedLurker]

If they get dangerously close to giving it all away, I might have to stop watching.

Good luck avoiding all the spoilers in the years between the last season of the series and the release of the last book. You might as well just watch the show and enjoy it as much as you can, rather than avoid the show and have the main plot points spoiled for you anyway.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I believe this sort of suggestion has been brought up and completely rejected. My understanding is that D&D have stated that there cannot be any break in the filming to the end, and the series cannot last more than about 7 seasons. The main reason is actor schedules and actor ages. These actors are rapidly aging out of their characters (poor Bran--he had such a growth spurt way too early). They also cannot tie up the actors forever. So they have pretty definitively said that there will be probably 7 seasons and there will be no breaks in the action. Of course, they can always change their minds, but these reasons seem pretty solid. Sorry to disappoint, but better to get used to the idea now so that when it happens you will have had years to get used to it.

Sigh. Yes, I thought it was too good to be true. Agree with you about the youngest actors, especially the actors for Bran and Arya.

Unfortunately, that means we're going to have two endings: the ending of the HBO series, and perhaps a very different ending in the books. I wonder if D&D will have leave to end things the way they see it, and GRRM may ultimately end the series another way?

(I do hate that we won't get to see any prequels or flashbacks, though. Because Tatiana would have been perfect. She even resembles Maisie a tiny bit in my opinion.)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Unfortunately, that means we're going to have two endings: the ending of the HBO series, and perhaps a very different ending in the books. I wonder if D&D will have leave to end things the way they see it, and GRRM may ultimately end the series another way?

From what I have read, we have basically gotten the answer to this question as well. Before they started the show, GRRM revealed the outline of the entire series to D&D in case GRRM died (at that point, no one was thinking that the show might have to overtake the books if GRRM lived). D&D have said that the ending is very satisfying. So the basic plot points will be the same most likely. Of course they might change certain details, and without the books as guidance there will be many more deviations in the plot. But the basic outline of what happens to each of the characters apparently will be the same. So we will know the ultimate significance of R+L=J. We will know who becomes a dragon rider and how the Others are defeated (if they are defeated) and who lives and who dies and who, if anyone, becomes king or queen. Perhaps some of these details will be different--D&D are free to tell any version they want--but I suspect it will be fairly close the outline GRRM gave them.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Wow. That's amazing! Glad I don't have to wait 10-15+ years to know if R+L=J is true! Sounds as if we'll know within the next three years, tops.

So as far as the books go, we'll likely learn Jon's parentage in TWoW. Can't imagine GRRM will leave it for ADoS now. Bet we'll learn it during the aftermath of the stabbing. I like the spec that Jon ends up at Winterfell at the start of (or early in) TWoW. The crypts are there, and perhaps a certain crannogman can finally venture north from the Neck...

[MtnLion]

I fully expect that we will be buying The Winds of Winter before next summer. GRRM must really be feeling the hot breath at the back of his neck, by now. GRRM does go over the scripts before filming, but there have been a few oopses along the way.

[BearQueen87]

I fully expect that we will be buying The Winds of Winter before next summer. GRRM must really be feeling the hot breath at the back of his neck, by now. GRRM does go over the scripts before filming, but there have been a few oopses along the way.

The Seven/Red God/Drowned God/ and whatever else willing.

We had (what?) 6 years in between AFFC and ADWD? It has been 3 years since ADWD. I don't think GRRM wants to make it a longer wait than we had for ADWD. If World of Ice and Fire is coming out this fall, then I'd hope we get WOW not longer after.

[Sundfeld]

It's really sad to think that some random guys D&D will get to tell Martin's masterpiece before he does, and that's why I've been nursing some hate towards D&D... I feel like us that read the books and love them should get to enjoy those moments first but what can we do? Watch the damn thing and enjoy it as best as possible.

But getting back into the main thread here, I believe Martin is not setting all this clues just to go another way, every story arc has been laid down with a purpose and that's what will make this series one of the best ever. And yet again after writing this I feel the sadness that the damn show will get to end it before the books...

[UnmaskedLurker]

It's really sad to think that some random guys D&D will get to tell Martin's masterpiece before he does, and that's why I've been nursing some hate towards D&D... I feel like us that read the books and love them should get to enjoy those moments first but what can we do? Watch the damn thing and enjoy it as best as possible.

But getting back into the main thread here, I believe Martin is not setting all this clues just to go another way, every story arc has been laid down with a purpose and that's what will make this series one of the best ever. And yet again after writing this I feel the sadness that the damn show will get to end it before the books...

Don't blame D&D--blame GRRM. But I agree that he is not going to change the story based on what D&D do. He may see something he likes and incorporate it, but he will not make any significant changes to the plot points. He knows where he is going, even if he does not know every detail regarding how he will get there.

[Eira Seren]

:D

Not yet, but we've wrapped episode one and have a teaser! Looking to the future now and planning some very special episodes to come ;)

It's all bookmarked and ready. Looking forward to it!

Tormund and Jon are right next to each other and there are a line of wildlings paying with items to get past the wall. It's a subversion of gift giving. Tormund hands Jon two Gold bands then invoke the word ring. That imagery should be self explanatory. Val appears with Ghost standing next to her and Ghost is refered to as being borrowed in a way. Val is dressed all in a beautiful white outfit, and Ghost escorts her to Jon. Martin also invokes the 4 traditions. Something Old, Val's weirwood pin with a face on it, the Old gods. Something new, her new outfit. Something borrowed, Ghost (who Jon asks for back), Something blue, he describes the wall as a beautiful blue. There are two things at play here, the imagery of Jon and Val getting married, it's not a real marriage, but it's done for the symbolism and the idea. The Other is the union between Wildling and Watch. There is a ton of symbolism involved in those two chapters. He invokes the imagery of Dragons and the Others, the wedding, he subverts Azor Ahai. The to chapters are a must read and I think people should take a really close look at Martins history of subverting not only classical tropes but his own history in the books. The Light King and the Night King, the Princess in the tower, Serwyn and the rescuing of a fair maid. Which ties into another theory I wrote. The subversion of the Rat Cook, the subversion of the Prince that was promised. He does not repeat the history of Westeros he has created but rather subverts it and the mythology within.

This is a great catch, I never connected Val in white with a bride and the whole exchange as a wedding ceremony! But really, the wedding as political alliance really fits here.

Does anyone think it's ironic that the Snow Queen from "Frozen" looks like this?

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/200H/i/2013/356/e/a/elsa___frozen__the_snow_queen_by_daviddimitridolce-d6yvvio.jpg

Yes. I thought it meant I see ASOIAF everywhere. Clearly, however, it means she is the Great Other. It is known. People, you heard it from Alia first.

And this is what I'm really scared of. I was a book lover first and foremost. I don't want to be spoiled by the TV show. If they get dangerously close to giving it all away, I might have to stop watching. And the wait for WOW feels longer/worse than the one we endured for ADWD

*crosses fingers* Come on, GRRM.

Sigh. Me, too. The WW thing was nearly too much for me.

I fully expect that we will be buying The Winds of Winter before next summer. GRRM must really be feeling the hot breath at the back of his neck, by now. GRRM does go over the scripts before filming, but there have been a few oopses along the way.

I really, really really hope you're right!

[Sundfeld]

Yeah, I know that the one to blame is Martin for selling the work before having everything, and we will have to enjoy the finale on the show, to give credit to D&D if someone can pull it off is them.

[SerArthurHeath]

IceFire, that's a good one! Thanks for the link. Kit is such an unapologetic ASoIaF fanboy! I know some pre-GoT Book Walkers don't like his take on Jon Snow, but millions of us read the series after being Unsullied TV viewers. For me, Kit is the Jon in my head.

I've only been on the forums a week and I'm totally convinced that Jon is a Targ. Starting my first re-read of the series this summer and clues are leaping out every time I read Ned's POV in AGoT. If GRRM doesn't confirm R+L=J, and Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara/Wylla/fishergirl, or just two random people, I think I'll feel totally trolled.

And I'm definitely not the only one. Bet Kit can't wait to act out the ultimate "Jon Snow, I am your father" Star Wars-esque reveal scene. (George, please write faster!)

I think people who slate Kit's acting or say he isn't Jon are just plain wrong. Especially this season

[WexPyke]

Whish is another reason GRRM should rue the day he met D and D.

[Alia of the knife]

It's all bookmarked and ready. Looking forward to it!

This is a great catch, I never connected Val in white with a bride and the whole exchange as a wedding ceremony! But really, the wedding as political alliance really fits here.

Yes. I thought it meant I see ASOIAF everywhere. Clearly, however, it means she is the Great Other. It is known. People, you heard it from Alia first.

Sigh. Me, too. The WW thing was nearly too much for me.

I really, really really hope you're right!

:)

[FrozenFire3]

OMG....LOL!! Kit STOP! you're ruining GRRM's epic mysteries. :drunk: :drunk:

“I’d want Viserion. No, wait — I’d have Rhaegal. He’s the green one. I’d have the green one. He just kind of takes my fancy. Certainly, Jon Snow should have a black one. That would suit him best, because he’s from the Night’s Watch, but I guess I’ll let Dany keep him. That’s her baby.”

He assumes Jon Snow would be very practical with any dragon he might acquire — “take it to the Wall, use it as a tool to fight the White Walkers, help make a bunch of dragonglass.” (it is known, Jon will have his dragon, spoilers TWOW)

But Harington wouldn’t use a dragon as a tool or a weapon. “I have no desire to go and conquer other people,” he said. (it is known, Jon will refuse the Iron Throne, spoilers ADOS)

“I’m quite happy to just try and sort out who I am first.” (it is known, R+L=J, spoilers ADOS)

His idea of how to have fun with a dragon would be to have a big enough place where you could just keep your dragon pal in the garden. And then you could tell your human pals, “Hey, do you want to come see my dragon?” “That’s what I’d do,” he laughed. “Frisk around with it in the garden for a while.”

For his own sake, Harington would prefer not to have a baby dragon — no raising dragons for him. “I’d have a dragon exactly my own age, 27,” he said. “Just like in How to Train Your Dragon, when Hiccup finds out Toothless is exactly his own age. That’s why they bonded so well! So we’d have that.” Bonus when it’s already an adult — no messy dragon diaper stage. (it is known, ice/stone/Sheepstealer/Cannibal is Jon's dragon, spoilers TWOW)

http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/kit-harington-wants-a-dragon.html?mid=twitter_vulture

**my added annotations are of my own for kicks, giggles and fun

Kit's dedication to his character is touching LOL

His performance has been based on a deep understanding of the text and its clues/foreshadowings. The stress on the 'emo' element is not there by chance imho, it is heavily influenced by educated guess and deductions, not to mention in-universe genetics ;)

[Black Crow]

From what I have read, we have basically gotten the answer to this question as well. Before they started the show, GRRM revealed the outline of the entire series to D&D in case GRRM died (at that point, no one was thinking that the show might have to overtake the books if GRRM lived). D&D have said that the ending is very satisfying. So the basic plot points will be the same most likely. Of course they might change certain details, and without the books as guidance there will be many more deviations in the plot. But the basic outline of what happens to each of the characters apparently will be the same. So we will know the ultimate significance of R+L=J. We will know who becomes a dragon rider and how the Others are defeated (if they are defeated) and who lives and who dies and who, if anyone, becomes king or queen. Perhaps some of these details will be different--D&D are free to tell any version they want--but I suspect it will be fairly close the outline GRRM gave them.

Its worth noting that after critiscism that the show was deviating from the books and that certain characters were being killed off prematurely, there was a conference in Santa Fe last year in which Benioff & Weiss got GRRM to reveal the ultimate story arcs of a surprising number of characters [Arya was specifically mentioned by name] in order to avoid problems. The results can be seen in the current series. There are still a lot of differences partly arising out of the production process [merging of characters and events, bridging the gaps which result and so on] there is a very definite feel that the core story is being very consciously dragged back on track.

While its obviously going to be disappointing to see the ending on the screen before the last book is published, there are going to be so many gaps, plot holes, explanations and so on still to be revealed that the books will still be worth waiting for, if only to find out why some really happened...

[LadyLiz]

Its worth noting that after critiscism that the show was deviating from the books and that certain characters were being killed off prematurely, there was a conference in Santa Fe last year in which Benioff & Weiss got GRRM to reveal the ultimate story arcs of a surprising number of characters [Arya was specifically mentioned by name] in order to avoid problems. The results can be seen in the current series. There are still a lot of differences partly arising out of the production process [merging of characters and events, bridging the gaps which result and so on] there is a very definite feel that the core story is being very consciously dragged back on track.

Agreed. While ideally there would be a perfect translation from book to show it is often just not possible. There is a huge universe in ASOIAF and unfortunately actors need to be paid. D&D love the books too and while I would prefer to read everything before it is on the show, I know that they will try and keep things as close to the books as they logistically are able to. I know that even if the books come out after I will be eager to read it to figure out all the little nuances and details which are left out of the show.

[BearQueen87]

Its worth noting that after critiscism that the show was deviating from the books and that certain characters were being killed off prematurely, there was a conference in Santa Fe last year in which Benioff & Weiss got GRRM to reveal the ultimate story arcs of a surprising number of characters [Arya was specifically mentioned by name] in order to avoid problems. The results can be seen in the current series. There are still a lot of differences partly arising out of the production process [merging of characters and events, bridging the gaps which result and so on] there is a very definite feel that the core story is being very consciously dragged back on track.

While its obviously going to be disappointing to see the ending on the screen before the last book is published, there are going to be so many gaps, plot holes, explanations and so on still to be revealed that the books will still be worth waiting for, if only to find out why some really happened...

One thing that conerns me, though, is that a lot of stuff we theorize about at length--AAR, The Last Hero, TPTWP, the Fight for the Dawn--hasn't been any treatment in the show. The changed (almost completely) the House of the Undying scene. They mentioned AAR in our introduction to Mel but other than, he's not spoken of.

I guess we've got one more season as a saftey net, if S5 is really AFFC and ADWD distilled down to 10 episodes, and probably bits of WOW. But I hope we get WOW before S6.

[Black Crow]

One thing that conerns me, though, is that a lot of stuff we theorize about at length--AAR, The Last Hero, TPTWP, the Fight for the Dawn--hasn't been any treatment in the show. The changed (almost completely) the House of the Undying scene. They mentioned AAR in our introduction to Mel but other than, he's not spoken of.

I guess we've got one more season as a saftey net, if S5 is really AFFC and ADWD distilled down to 10 episodes, and probably bits of WOW. But I hope we get WOW before S6.

We're rather straying off the R+L=J topic here, but I would say on the one hand that the white walkers have been more prominent in the show than in the books at this stage, and on the other that if the white walkers are Craster's sons they are not an invading army. That's not to say that they aint a threat but that the nature of the threat and perhaps who's behind it is not going to be quite as advertised. The way that this series is shaping up to close on Bran coming face to face with Bloodraven does suggest that events north of the Wall are going to be an important feature of series 5, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Coming back on to topic, in contrast there's no denying that there's been no hint of the R+L=J business, which rather suggests that although there is still scope for a reveal, its significance, like that of the white walkers may not be as expected.