R+L=J v.83

[BMB]

Didn't the master at armes of the red keep 'fireball' something set aside his wife to the silent sisters so he could join the kings guard

Yeah that was Ser Quentyn Ball...mentioned in "The Mystery Knight".

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

Yeah that was Ser Quentyn Ball...mentioned in "The Mystery Knight".

Thanks I am very bad with names

[Pengwin7]

Just curious... are there any threads where people theorize a full list of characters whose assumed parents (esp. father) might not be the actual parents (esp. father).

GRRM starts up this line of thinking as his main plotline in GoT (Baratheon children who are not from Robert) - but it seems it could be extended (& theorized) to many characters in this story.

Seems like the book has a few subtle hints at people chasing "true love" outside of their spouse.

(Specifically, I've got my own trail of bastards, due to "seeking true love", from the Princess of Dorne-Joanna-Rhaella Targaryen line of sons/daughters... wanting to know if anybody else has made a list ?!).

Any good threads?

[Consigliere]

Just curious... are there any threads where people theorize a full list of characters whose assumed parents (esp. father) might not be the actual parents (esp. father).

GRRM starts up this line of thinking as his main plotline in GoT (Baratheon children who are not from Robert) - but it seems it could be extended (& theorized) to many characters in this story.

Seems like the book has a few subtle hints at people chasing "true love" outside of their spouse.

(Specifically, I've got my own trail of bastards, due to "seeking true love", from the Princess of Dorne-Joanna-Rhaella Targaryen line of sons/daughters... wanting to know if anybody else has made a list ?!).

Any good threads?

I don't recall any. Maybe you should start one. :) I'd like to hear your reasoning behind Princess of Dorne, Joanna, Rhaella claims.

[Pengwin7]

I don't recall any. Maybe you should start one. :) I'd like to hear your reasoning behind Princess of Dorne, Joanna, Rhaella claims.

LOL, thanks for (feigning?) interest.

People on these forums seem well-knowledged... I'm sure they'd just pick holes in my theories.

You can read it here, if you like.

(It's a forum for hockey fans... our ASOIAF is just a sub-forum with... moderate fans... not die-hards like here... but I'm trying to learn from you guys :) )

[Consigliere]

LOL, thanks for (feigning?) interest.

People on these forums seem well-knowledged... I'm sure they'd just pick holes in my theories.

You can read it here, if you like.

(It's a forum for hockey fans... our ASOIAF is just a sub-forum with... moderate fans... not die-hards like here... but I'm trying to learn from you guys :) )

I wasn't feigning. I was genuinely interested. :)

After reading your link, here are my thoughts:

Tbh, the only thing I agree on is Jon's parents and thats it. The rest of the claims actually serve no purpose in the story. So why include it if it serves no purpose? Furthermore there is no textual evidence to support those claims. Sorry but the claims made are nothing more than fanfiction as far as I'm concerned. If you started a thread on here with these claims, I suspect am certain you would be asked many questions that you wouldn't be able to answer.

I cant believe I'm saying this but Tyrion being Aerys bastard has more evidence than him being Rhaegars. Of course this ssm needs to be addressed:

"Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned."

Note the ssm says Tyrion was named by his father. GRRM, to my knowledge, has never outright lied so saying Tyrion was named by his father suggest that Tywin is, in fact, Tyrions actual father. Also note that GRRM avoids saying Jon was named by his father but says he was named by Ned, suggesting Ned is not his father.

[Pengwin7]

Well, thanks for reading anyways.

:)

[Consigliere]

Well, thanks for reading anyways.

:)

No probs.

Don't be offended by my comment. I just think you are reading too much into things. Even on this forum, I think some theories read way too much into things. Alot of what you say actually has no textual evidence to back it up and in some cases is actually contradicted by the text, At the end of the day you need to ask yourself: How does my theory serve the future plot? None of the claims in the post actually serve the plot, so there is really no reason for them to be included. Sometimes a duck is just a duck -- shocking, I know. ;)

[Ser Creighton]

LOL, thanks for (feigning?) interest.

People on these forums seem well-knowledged... I'm sure they'd just pick holes in my theories.

You can read it here, if you like.

(It's a forum for hockey fans... our ASOIAF is just a sub-forum with... moderate fans... not die-hards like here... but I'm trying to learn from you guys :) )

Don't do that, the whole feigning interest thing, don't be self depreciating unless it's a ruse to suck people and then crush them. On this forum you must announce your presences with authority.

Seriously though, I read your theory and this really isn't the place to discuss it. I'll just say it is interesting, but flawed, and yes many things you bring up have been discussed, and yes some here will rip it to shreds. Do yourself a favor, read up on some of the existing theories, apply what you know, expand your knowledge of the books and enjoy yourself. You can learn a lot about the books, meet some decent people, and have some fun. Don't worry to much about writing theories when you are new, once you get a better understanding of the books and what is out there dive in and it will probably benefit you more in the long run after we got awhile before book 6 comes out, plenty of time to write theories. Small questions is also a better place for questions like that, plenty of people willing to help. Or even questions relating to part of the theory.

[corbon]

I haven't watched this season yet. My wife is a big show fan and I usually record the entire season first before we watch it. Could you elaborate on this show hint? I don't mind spoilers. :)

But others do!

There is a whole other sub-forum for that. Please keep it there.

[Ser Creighton]

:D

Not yet, but we've wrapped episode one and have a teaser! Looking to the future now and planning some very special episodes to come ;)

So I just need to get this right, among other thingsyou will be doing readings from the book right? So if I play this at night I can have you and Yolkboy reading me a bedtime story?

So something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9VkIJ-6odw

Oh I am so down for this. Though Gwen your voice disappoints me, I was totally hoping for a heavy southie accent, you didn't drop one R. I call bullshit on that, drop some R's damn it. Jahn is a wicked awesome member of the night's wahtch, he said his vows in front of the Old Gawd's.

Hey where's Jahn headed Sam? He's headed down wall bra.

Just remember when you're reading, you're reading to Ser Creighton. That should make you feel totally comfortable annd not uncomfortable in anyway.

Seriously good luck Gwen, have fun with it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Edric Storm is older than Joffery, isn't he? And Robert claimed Edric because the mother was a virigin and so there was no question of paternity.

Dropping in a little late. As was said before, Joffrey is older than Edric.

But there is also a difference between acknowledging and legitimizing. Jon is acknowledged, for example, but not legitimized. As is Edric. So neither are in line of inheritance.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

So I just need to get this right, among other thingsyou will be doing readings from the book right? So if I play this at night I can have you and Yolkboy reading me a bedtime story?

So something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9VkIJ-6odw

Oh I am so down for this. Though Gwen your voice disappoints me, I was totally hoping for a heavy southie accent, you didn't drop one R. I call bullshit on that, drop some R's damn it. Jahn is a wicked awesome member of the night's wahtch, he said his vows in front of the Old Gawd's.

Hey where's Jahn headed Sam? He's headed down wall bra.

Just remember when you're reading, you're reading to Ser Creighton. That should make you feel totally comfortable annd not uncomfortable in anyway.

Seriously good luck Gwen, have fun with it.

:lmao:

... yes, it will be a lot like that. And trust me, I look just like Dwight :rolleyes:

Sorry, no Southie accent. More Back Bay-ish, smoothed out by the hills of Worcester county. Maybe one day I'll do a bit of Southie in the show as a nod, but only if yolkboy will do cockney ;)

Thanks for the luck!

[Pengwin7]

Do yourself a favor, read up on some of the existing theories, apply what you know, expand your knowledge of the books and enjoy yourself. You can learn a lot about the books, meet some decent people, and have some fun. Don't worry to much about writing theories when you are new, once you get a better understanding of the books and what is out there dive in and it will probably benefit you more in the long run after we got awhile before book 6 comes out, plenty of time to write theories.

Thanks for the advice.

Though I'll say this... if one spends too much time reading up on existing theories - they end up marching to the same beat of the kids in the courtyard of Dead Poets Society.

Too much time spent in the box... and one isn't thinking outside the box anymore.

GRRM is one man.

Just because the masses come to one conclusion, doesn't mean they've matched what is in his mind.

(Beyond that - please do know that I've been reading as much as I can from the forums/Citadel/Tower of Hand. I do NOT take GRRM's SSM as "truths" though, which I find others seem to lean on. Safety in the masses to accept his comments' as truths. If he has to lie to his readers for the good of preserving the mysteries of his story... he should. The story is steeped in the depth of true love & its bastard children... so, back to my first post in this thread - I'm really interesting in finding "other" people's opinions on other bastard children possibilities that aren't "obvious"... even to the masses. There's got to be at least a couple revered people on this site that have some unpopular "bastard" theories. No?)

[SerArthurHeath]

Subtle and subjective one:

It seems to me that Rhaegar's biggest failing was that he had this plan worked out and a few people involved, and a plan to depose his father etc, but lack of communication arguably may have led to Brandon's actions and war, and possibly harming his chances of ending this war early, treating with teh rebels or getting people like Tywin involved to help (assuming he was going to hold a council to dethrown Aerys as he suggests to Jaime). His plan was sound and made sense to him but without communicating it, others intervened and resulted in chaos and his death.

Jon's plan and thinking in Dance is solid. He gets what needs to happen and is working on it. But he is so sure of it and also utterly fails to communicate this to his underlings at all, leading to his "death" and chaos.

[Prince of the North]

Subtle and subjective one:

It seems to me that Rhaegar's biggest failing was that he had this plan worked out and a few people involved, and a plan to depose his father etc, but lack of communication arguably may have led to Brandon's actions and war, and possibly harming his chances of ending this war early, treating with teh rebels or getting people like Tywin involved to help (assuming he was going to hold a council to dethrown Aerys as he suggests to Jaime). His plan was sound and made sense to him but without communicating it, others intervened and resulted in chaos and his death.

Jon's plan and thinking in Dance is solid. He gets what needs to happen and is working on it. But he is so sure of it and also utterly fails to communicate this to his underlings at all, leading to his "death" and chaos.

Interesting parallel. I think Rhaegar was obsessed with something else at the time, fulfilling the prophecy and saving the world, so he only tried to do something about his father and then the rebellion after it was too late. I do agree with you that both Rhaegar and Jon should have better communicated their plans to a few key others. Another instance of this sort of thing, I think, is when Rob failed to communicate to Edmure his strategy to draw Tywin's forces into a trap. Thus, assuring that very important, potentially war ending, plan would fail.

[The other prince]

Subtle and subjective one:

It seems to me that Rhaegar's biggest failing was that he had this plan worked out and a few people involved, and a plan to depose his father etc, but lack of communication arguably may have led to Brandon's actions and war, and possibly harming his chances of ending this war early, treating with teh rebels or getting people like Tywin involved to help (assuming he was going to hold a council to dethrown Aerys as he suggests to Jaime). His plan was sound and made sense to him but without communicating it, others intervened and resulted in chaos and his death.

Jon's plan and thinking in Dance is solid. He gets what needs to happen and is working on it. But he is so sure of it and also utterly fails to communicate this to his underlings at all, leading to his "death" and chaos.

Well to be fair Rhaegar had to be very careful concerning any plans to depose Aery's. Varys after all is always watching.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Interesting parallel. I think Rhaegar was obsessed with something else at the time, fulfilling the prophecy and saving the world, so he only tried to do something about his father and then the rebellion after it was too late. I do agree with you that both Rhaegar and Jon should have better communicated their plans to a few key others. Another instance of this sort of thing, I think, is when Rob failed to communicate to Edmure his strategy to draw Tywin's forces into a trap. Thus, assuring that very important, potentially war ending, plan would fail.

I agree, but I dont think it was Rhaegars fault. I think Varys was bringing down Aerys slowly with increased paranoia towards everyone. Then Varys got wind that Rhaegar was planning a meeting of the nobles and told Aerys to go to the Tourney to make sure nothing happened. Varys and Illyrio didnt want someone competent and un-'mad' like Rhaegar sitting on the throne, they were happy with Aerys staying on it and fucking everything up, making the kingdom weak. Easier to be taken over eventually. I still also think that Varys is responsible for whatever/whoever told Brandon about the 'abduction' to make him so incredibly angry.

[Prince of the North]

I agree, but I dont think it was Rhaegars fault. I think Varys was bringing down Aerys slowly with increased paranoia towards everyone. Then Varys got wind that Rhaegar was planning a meeting of the nobles and told Aerys to go to the Tourney to make sure nothing happened. Varys and Illyrio didnt want someone competent and un-'mad' like Rhaegar sitting on the throne, they were happy with Aerys staying on it and fucking everything up, making the kingdom weak. Easier to be taken over eventually. I still also think that Varys is responsible for whatever/whoever told Brandon about the 'abduction' to make him so incredibly angry.

No, I don't think it's Rhaegar's fault either. I just think he was incredibly preoccupied with his plans to fulfill the prophecy and that made him perhaps slower to act when it came to his father and then the rebellion than he otherwise would or could have.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No, I don't think it's Rhaegar's fault either. I just think he was incredibly preoccupied with his plans to fulfill the prophecy and that made him perhaps slower to act when it came to his father and then the rebellion than he otherwise would or could have.

Yeah I would be very interested to know how the last conversation went between Rhaegar and Aerys. LIke what kind of relationship did they have towards the end. Did Aerys really want his son and grandchildren to die? Was he just so far past Go that he completely had lost all sense of continuing his bloodline or caring at all about his family? Could anyone have talked sense into him at that point?