Inconsistent Dornish reactions

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think we can blame Rhaegar for leaving 3 KG (including the Lord Commander) to protect his mistress while leaving only Jaime (who's barely more than a boy still) to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.

You mean the rest of the Kingsguard (there are seven in total you know) and all the knights, sellswords, and Targ-loyal lords in King's Landing. Elia and the kids had far more people standing between them and danger than Lyanna did. Granted that didn't prevent their deaths (except maybe Aegon's). But anyway the topic isn't about who we blame, it's about who the Martells blame.

OP, I don't recall anything in the text that says the Martells were ok with Rhaegar's actions but they wouldn't make a point of brooding over the actions of a dead man. Tywin Lannister and his dog are alive and well, and ripe for punishment at the beginning of the series. The Martells have a history of marrying into the Targaryen family and the throne is the best place to be sitting if you want to get vengeance for something, so it really makes perfect sense for Doran to betroth Arianne to Viserys.

OP, where on earth did you get the idea that Ned caused Ashara's death? There's nothing in the text that even remotely suggests that. The Daynes aren't related to the Martells either so what does this have to do with the topic anyway?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't think they hate the Targs per se, but supporting Aegon and realizing he's a Blackfyre could give them some slight sense of satisfaction...

[Winterfell is Burning]

Rhaegar and Aerys are dead and the Targaryens left had nothing to do with what they did. Why is that so hard to understand?

[jon rhaegar stark]

as i have previously mentioned in other post i think doran has a hand in varys plans and fake aegon ...he would view rheagar's decision to take lyanna as an insult to elia ...when doran mentions vengence i think he is referin more about it that does not meet the eye.and may explain why he waited this much time for that marrage pact to be shown and everyone recognizes him as dumb for waiting for too long but what if he is with varys playing a long game

[Minstral]

Why do the Dornish use the Targs as the outlet of their revenge? Why is it that whenever people were dissatisfied with medieval government that they would simply turn to a pretender rather than just creating a new government? They buy into the power structure and history of the realm even though it is a construct of a society of people that don't actually know that they constructed their own political system as the generations go. To the Martells and many other rebellious house in Westeros they turn to another claimant when they cannot abide by the "tyranny" of the reigning monarch and his government because it literally seems like it is the only other option. People say that all that matters is who controls an army, and they become king. The truth is that the system of kingship and title claimants are what define the conflicts and how opposition is fermented to the powers that be.

[Lummel]

The Targaryens are also kin. The Martells had been marrying into the Targaryen line for generations, an arrangement that raises the status of Dorne relative to the other great lordly houses. Dorne on the whole is more open and accepting of extra-marital affairs, so Rhaegar's actions are not going to outweigh the longstanding connection to the Targaryens and the murder of a nephew, niece and sister of the Martells.

Really whoever Rhaegar enjoyed himself with in bed the political fact remained that his successor would be one of his trueborn children whose mother was a Martell, it was the rebellion and the murder that changed that and was the blow to the Martell's power position.

[LordStoneheart]

"spent a year shacking up with his girlfriend."

Might be the wrong description. "Spent an unknown but large amount of time away from Elia doing something mysterious with the Stark girl that no one really knows about except for Robert who wasn't actually there."

I feel like the title of this thread should be "Why does Dorne hate the Lannisters but not Rhaegar like I do?"

[voodooqueen126]

Think of actual European royalty: princesses married princes and kings for much of history. Many of those kings had mistresses and cheated quite openly. Before Christianity many of those kings had multiple wives. Nevertheless the alliances were still preserved.

Yet when the French and Russian revolutions murdered their kings (and foreign brides Marie Antoinette and Empress Alexandra respectively) you betcha the other powers were pissed off.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"spent a year shacking up with his girlfriend."

Might be the wrong description. "Spent an unknown but large amount of time away from Elia doing something mysterious with the Stark girl that no one really knows about except for Robert who wasn't actually there."

:lol:

Really, people think Rhaegar did nothing but sex Lyanna all day there, isn't? I mean, he just happened to find an empty tower to take her there and... well, take her.

[Melisandre's hair]

I don't really see why would guys in the most free-minded of all 7K care about Rhaegar doing anything with Lyanna. Elia already had two children (and one of them was future king of Westeros). She would also be in danger if she got pregnant again and had decent chances of dying. If Rhaegar wanted another child (from Dornish POV), how could Doran or/and Oberyn possibly forbid it? Oberyn already had 4 children with different women and Targs are known for having bastards now and then...
If Martells find Rhaegar (in some way) guilty for not being in KL and protecting Elia, well...tough luck, he died trying to defend his fathers throne and stopping Bob...

[Rysler]

Well, Elia's marriage was pretty political from the start and the Dornish relationships are known to differ from other regions'. Maybe they considered Lyanna to be Rhaegar's paramour?

And I get from Doran's "Justice. Revenge. Fire and Blood" speech that he isn't so much pro-Targaryen as he is anti-Lannister.

[Lord Varys]

Doran only reluctantly supported the Targaryens after the Rhaegar-Elia-incident. He may consider this a mistake now, since you can make a case that 20,000 Dornish spears at the Trident would have helped Rhaegar to win the battle (Doran sent only 10,000).

Doran's nephew and niece are dead now, because of this. That may actually vex him a lot.

The plan is to restore a Targaryen-Martell union to the Iron Throne again. First with Arianne-Viserys, later with Dany-Quentyn. Dorne could also have declared for another pretender, but Renly married into House Tyrell (which not make the Martells a powerful house at the court of King Renly), and Stannis was already married. They could have tried to arrange a marriage between Shireen and Trystane, but if Stannis would eventually give birth to a son (say, with a second wife, or something like that), Shireen would no longer be his heir.

I guess Doran had not yet heard about Dany and her dragons when he accepted Tyrion's offer for an alliance. With Viserys dead - and thus all hopes for a Targaryen restoration shattered - he may have considered putting Myrcella on the Iron Throne eventually.

But when the news about the dragons arrive, it's clear that this is the best chance for success. There are still Targaryen loyalists in Westeros, and Daenerys has three dragons.

[Barty]

Dorne was angry at Rhaegar and Aerys for the whole Lyanna fiasco. Why do you think Aerys had to take Elia and her children hostage?? Why was there not a single Dornish soldier fighting for the Targs right until the Trident(when Aerys took Elia hostage) even though the rebellion had been going on for the better part of a year??

Why did Doran only send 10k men when we know Dorne is capable of much more than that(at least 25-30k at full strength)?

Seems like Doran was secretly hoping for a rebel victory - but the brutal murder of Elia and her children pushed him firmly back into the Targ camp. As for not trying to stay independent - maybe they could have succeeded, but Dorne had already lost more than a third of it's strength on the Trident and the rebels had become much stronger with the Tyrells and the Lannisters joining their cause(both with fresh troops). Also Remember Doran is not an especially brave or warlike man - he is more suited to plotting than fighting and so he decides to play to his strengths.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

:lol:

Really, people think Rhaegar did nothing but sex Lyanna all day there, isn't? I mean, he just happened to find an empty tower to take her there and... well, take her.

He wasnt at Summerhall making new emo songs,so that he can move maidens to tears. Had he been there Robert would have hammered his chest and ended the Rebellion there, In the process fucking all of Wrsteros (r+l=j, & j=AAR/PTWP) ;) ;)

We dont heard a peep about what the f*** he was doing,untill Hightower came to twist his ears ;) ;) and sent Rhegar to clear up the shitstorm Rhaegar had started.

So its safe to assume he was shacking up with Lyanna (if consent was there) or are you suggesting Arthur or Oswell had something to do with Jon. ;) ;) ;)

[tomkat364]

We know that Rhaegar at least visited King's Landing prior to the Trident, so the WHOLE year wasn't spent sexing Lyanna in the ToJ, but it certainly seems he wasn't playing the family man with Elia. I also happen to like Rhaegar's character quite a bit and so the title of the post isn't about MY hating him. All I'm saying is that the Targaryen's do not seem like they should be Dorne's first choice for BFF's. If power is what the were after, a marriage to Stannis or Renly would have sufficed (and yes, the new king was not responsible but implicated by association with Elia's murder, so that could be why they didn't pursue this.) Yes, Dorne is pretty open with relationships, but when your sister is the PRINCESS, and she's spurned in such a public and continual way, that should cause some dissatisfaction for HER, if not for you.

Now Aerys and everyone is dead and a new king sits on the throne, Viserys is not a real strong contender for the throne having run off to a foreign land and being pretty young, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to throw your own daughter into the same situation in which your sister suffered.

Barty - I hadn't thought about any of your points, which are good. But they certainly aren't played up much in the books IMO, and then Doran goes right back to the Targs despite all of those issues.

Lady Blizzardborn - I don't mean that Ned KILLED Ashara, but his visit seems to have been what CAUSED her to kill herself (if that's what really happened). Whether it was his bringing back Morning, his having killed Arthur, or something to do with potential Ashara baby, her suicide was "triggered" by Ned's visit.

But a lot of what happens surrounding the ToJ has strong ties to Dorne, geographically and in terms of major houses involved. Ned stayed at Starfall (IN DORNE) for some time afterwards, so my major question is "was there more Dornish involvement in events at ToJ before Ned arrives, or in the aftermath that explains Doran's choosing to run right back to the Targaryens?"

[Skythe1]

snip

But a lot of what happens surrounding the ToJ has strong ties to Dorne, geographically and in terms of major houses involved. Ned stayed at Starfall (IN DORNE) for some time afterwards, so my major question is "was there more Dornish involvement in events at ToJ before Ned arrives, or in the aftermath that explains Doran's choosing to run right back to the Targaryens?"

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It seems to me the reason they weren't so bothered by it is because they know a lot more about what was going on there than we do.

Arthur Dayne is likely to have some idea what was going on, maybe he told Ashara and she told a few people she trusted and it went from there. Hell, maybe Elia herself even knew what was going on

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Lady Blizzardborn - I don't mean that Ned KILLED Ashara, but his visit seems to have been what CAUSED her to kill herself (if that's what really happened). Whether it was his bringing back Morning, his having killed Arthur, or something to do with potential Ashara baby, her suicide was "triggered" by Ned's visit.

But a lot of what happens surrounding the ToJ has strong ties to Dorne, geographically and in terms of major houses involved. Ned stayed at Starfall (IN DORNE) for some time afterwards, so my major question is "was there more Dornish involvement in events at ToJ before Ned arrives, or in the aftermath that explains Doran's choosing to run right back to the Targaryens?"

Thank you for addressing that. But it's still utter speculation regarding why Ashara killed herself (if in fact she did). The timing could be entirely coincidental. We don't know how long after Ned's visit she jumped from that tower. It could have been months later. Barristan seems to think her child being born dead was the motivation. Could have been post-partum depression. Could be she's alive and the family created a plausible story to explain her absence since they weren't sure she would ever return. Her body was never found, and while in real life that doesn't mean anything, in fiction it usually does.

Well you've got the Dornish, and you've got the Martells. It could be argued that the Martells ARE Dorne, they certainly speak for the region, but there are other Dornish houses and it's possible that some of the other families were involved at the ToJ. There's a high possibility that the Daynes were, given that Arthur was there, and Wylla ends up at Starfall as a wetnurse to their heir. The Yronwoods are another possibility, depending on where they're keep is in relation to ToJ. I also think the Daynes of High Hermitage might have been involved.

I really don't find it odd that Doran is willing to realign with the Targaryens. Without the anti-Targ rebellion, Elia and her children would still be alive, and a half-Martell would in time be king of Westeros (again). And actually even the rebellion didn't have to mean their deaths. That's on Tywin, not the Targs. Doran certainly couldn't blame Viserys, who was eight years old at the time, and Daenerys who wasn't even born yet.

[Failed to De-anon]

Well, the Lannister hatred is self-explanatory, but, the supposed lack of Targaryen hatred on the part of the Martells is imo rather simple I think. As others have said it's one thing to hate the pyromaniac hostage taker that Aerys was and also the cheating husband that Rhaegar was, but, it's another to hate the boy Viserys was or the baby who never knew much of her family that Daenerys was. That aligning one's self with either means that you might be the grandfather to a king in the future and with those who have equal reason to hate your enemies is nothing to sneeze at.

[tomkat364]

My only point about Ashara was that it was yet another thing that happens in Dorne surrounding the ToJ. Everything that takes place surrounding Rhaegar's love affair with Lyanna takes place around Dorne, which in itself is strange considering it was all in violation of his marriage to Elia. Again, if I cheat on my wife I'm not going to do it in her parents' back yard. Just strange.

And do we honestly feel that Viserys is the most likely way for Doran Martell to put a grandchild on the iron throne? It seems to be more loyalty than power-grabbing to me.

[nara]

He didn't leave them on the middle of the street. They were not only in a fortress but in THE fortress where the King lived too, the safer place in Westeros until you open the gates.

You mean the rest of the Kingsguard (there are seven in total you know) and all the knights, sellswords, and Targ-loyal lords in King's Landing. Elia and the kids had far more people standing between them and danger than Lyanna did. Granted that didn't prevent their deaths (except maybe Aegon's). But anyway the topic isn't about who we blame, it's about who the Martells blame.

Yes, KL is a relatively safe place, but it nearly fell to Stannis, so it's not impregnable.

Yes, I know that there are 7 people in the KG. When Rhaegar went to fight Robert, he took Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy, and Jonathor Darry with him. With 3 KG at the TOJ, that left only Jaime Lannister with Aerys, Elia, and the kids. Yes, there were Gold Cloaks protecting the city, but if I were Doran and Oberyn, I would have expected Rhaegar to protect Elia and the kids with the best knights in the kingdom--the KG.

I'm not saying that Doran and Oberyn do blame Rhaegar, I'm saying that it would be reasonable for them to blame him for not putting the best protection around Elia and the kids, but instead putting his best knights around Lyanna.