Book and show spoilers: how could they do the finale w/o

[andrew_]

Would've loved to see her introduction, but alas she'll show up next season for sure, so I'm not too fussed.

[Duckface]

They probably think that the money is worth it or otherwise they would unsubscribe. What makes you think that your opinion is somehow the only true one?

Well, I'm just dissapointed with the season. I don't mind if people like the show. I guess there are many people who think it's worth paying, but i also think there are people who paid and were dissapointed with this season. Even if some think it's worth paying, you can still wish for a better product. It's sad that HBO earns tons of money with this show and doesn't deliver as expected.

No offense. My opinion isn't the true one, just an opinion.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I am massively disappointed about this one. It's bad enough that so much of Catelyn's story and character were butchered on the TV show, but I was holding out hope to at least see her again even if it had to be as Lady Stoneheart and to see Michelle Fairley again. I don't know, with this choice and some of the little small choices they make to exclude little book fan favorite moments from the show that can easily be included, it just feels like D&D are making it very clear that they are not making this show for the book readers. All I can really look forward to with great anticipation is TWOW.

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't know why so many people think she wont turn up next season.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Well, I'm just dissapointed with the season. I don't mind if people like the show. I guess there are many people who think it's worth paying, but i also think there are people who paid and were dissapointed with this season. Even if some think it's worth paying, you can still wish for a better product. It's sad that HBO earns tons of money with this show and doesn't deliver as expected.

No offense. My opinion isn't the true one, just an opinion.

OK. Fair point. Thanks. I thought it was a great season (better than 2 or 3) though I certainly didn't love everything. The final was a slight letdown.

[Chebyshov]

Because I was such a loudmouth about LS being included, I decided to write my rather detailed thoughts on the subject.

To begin: I was quite wrong. This is the last time I extrapolate wildly from an evasive interview answer, a celebrity Instagram, and 3 notes on a soundtrack. Moreover, I think with us getting closer and closer towards unpublished material, book foreknowledge is too incomplete for us to make accurate predictions. Could any of us have foreseen Leaf blowing up Jojen’s corpse? (Okay, maybe a bad example). So I think this was my wake-up call that we are truly in unchartered waters.

As for why LS was cut, there are two options:

1. She is cut from the show entirely

2. They will introduce her next season, probably through Brienne’s eyes, so that we have more buy-in

If the former is the case, then we have to remind ourselves that D&D know the end-game and we don’t. It could be that her character doesn’t amount to anything; maybe Brienne & Jaime will get away from her next book, or even find a way to end her. That would be a bit disappointing, but it’s certainly possible. I also assumed LS was safe to make the cut given that her resurrection would serve as a precedent for another resurrection in TWOW, but the show may just be streamlining. We’ve already seen them simplify elements of storylines before, so this could be no different. So yes, it is possible that she is cut completely.

If, however, it is option #2, I think that was a mistake. Separating her introduction 1 year after the RW was already a long wait, especially because book readers had the luxury of meeting LS a mere 300 pages later. But next year will be 2 years removed from that event, and I feel like it may have lost a bit of its punch for that reason.

Secondly, without LS soon, I’m really not sure what Brienne is going to do next season. She saw Ayra skip off, so is she going to try and follow her trail? Is she going to say “meh” and look for Sansa instead (and where would she even do that?). I guess it’s possible that the BWB captures Brienne early next season, and takes a few episodes to set up LS (she could be a pretty awesome ending to Episode 5x02 or 5x04), but why they wouldn’t create intrigue now is beyond me. Some have argued that including a character merely to generate interest is stupid, but then what would you call ASOS’s epilogue?

Also, I think this may be the first time where a major plot point doesn’t happen when it’s supposed to. If LS is still in the show, this was the moment for her introduction. The show has certainly departed from the books and made some interesting choices, but they usually hit the bigger moments. Then again, Oberyn was introduced to us later, so anything is possible.

In sum, if LS is cut, that is disappointing, but it tells us she doesn’t influence the end-game. She’d be just like another Coldhands…cool in the books, but not necessary for this very streamlined adaptation. If LS is in, it was a poor choice not to include her this year, just from a narrative-perspective. However, the only good news in this is that they could actually give her a proper set-up (hanged Freys, whispers of LS) next season, if they so choose.

I don’t know which option is likelier; I feel like I really need TWOW to make any vaguely-informed guesses. But I was genuinely surprised she didn’t close the episode (though not shocked), and quite disappointed. I don’t think D&D are complete morons, I’m not going to quit the show, and I’m not even going to blast this too much; they made the choice that they made, and I’m sure there’s a reason behind it, even if I don’t understand it now. But from here on out, there will be a high level of uncertainty in any of our book-reader speculation.

[sati]

I am massively disappointed about this one. It's bad enough that so much of Catelyn's story and character were butchered on the TV show, but I was holding out hope to at least see her again even if it had to be as Lady Stoneheart and to see Michelle Fairley again. I don't know, with this choice and some of the little small choices they make to exclude little book fan favorite moments from the show that can easily be included, it just feels like D&D are making it very clear that they are not making this show for the book readers. All I can really look forward to with great anticipation is TWOW.

This season it was very clear to me they only care about themselves and what they want to see, not about what anyone else thinks no matter how wrong/stupid their decisions

[Cas Stark]

Because I was such a loudmouth about LS being included, I decided to write my rather detailed thoughts on the subject.

To begin: I was quite wrong. This is the last time I extrapolate wildly from an evasive interview answer, a celebrity Instagram, and 3 notes on a soundtrack. Moreover, I think with us getting closer and closer towards unpublished material, book foreknowledge is too incomplete for us to make accurate predictions. Could any of us have foreseen Leaf blowing up Jojen’s corpse? (Okay, maybe a bad example). So I think this was my wake-up call that we are truly in unchartered waters.

As for why LS was cut, there are two options:

1. She is cut from the show entirely

2. They will introduce her next season, probably through Brienne’s eyes, so that we have more buy-in

If the former is the case, then we have to remind ourselves that D&D know the end-game and we don’t. It could be that her character doesn’t amount to anything; maybe Brienne & Jaime will get away from her next book, or even find a way to end her. That would be a bit disappointing, but it’s certainly possible. I also assumed LS was safe to make the cut given that her resurrection would serve as a precedent for another resurrection in TWOW, but the show may just be streamlining. We’ve already seen them simplify elements of storylines before, so this could be no different. So yes, it is possible that she is cut completely.

If, however, it is option #2, I think that was a mistake. Separating her introduction 1 year after the RW was already a long wait, especially because book readers had the luxury of meeting LS a mere 300 pages later. But next year will be 2 years removed from that event, and I feel like it may have lost a bit of its punch for that reason.

Secondly, without LS soon, I’m really not sure what Brienne is going to do next season. She saw Ayra skip off, so is she going to try and follow her trail? Is she going to say “meh” and look for Sansa instead (and where would she even do that?). I guess it’s possible that the BWB captures Brienne early next season, and takes a few episodes to set up LS (she could be a pretty awesome ending to Episode 5x02 or 5x04), but why they wouldn’t create intrigue now is beyond me. Some have argued that including a character merely to generate interest is stupid, but then what would you call ASOS’s epilogue?

Also, I think this may be the first time where a major plot point doesn’t happen when it’s supposed to. If LS is still in the show, this was the moment for her introduction. The show has certainly departed from the books and made some interesting choices, but they usually hit the bigger moments. Then again, Oberyn was introduced to us later, so anything is possible.

In sum, if LS is cut, that is disappointing, but it tells us she doesn’t influence the end-game. She’d be just like another Coldhands…cool in the books, but not necessary for this very streamlined adaptation. If LS is in, it was a poor choice not to include her this year, just from a narrative-perspective. However, the only good news in this is that they could actually give her a proper set-up (hanged Freys, whispers of LS) next season, if they so choose.

I don’t know which option is likelier; I feel like I really need TWOW to make any vaguely-informed guesses. But I was genuinely surprised she didn’t close the episode (though not shocked), and quite disappointed. I don’t think D&D are complete morons, I’m not going to quit the show, and I’m not even going to blast this too much; they made the choice that they made, and I’m sure there’s a reason behind it, even if I don’t understand it now. But from here on out, there will be a high level of uncertainty in any of our book-reader speculation.

To that I say: So What?

So what if Lady Stoneheart doesn't have any lasting impact on the plot in the novels?

The show gave us "Ros" and "Talisa" and innumerable brothel scenes that have no meaning. They could have given us Lady Stoneheart as well.

[sati]

For me this is odd for two reasons:

1. Pushing her reveal in time brings her closer to Jon's for the Watch scene which will result in two major characters being resurrected closer to each other than in books

2. I don't think Martin would introduce her, bring her back, cheat death if she is not important

[HairGrowsBack]

For me this is odd for two reasons:

1. Pushing her reveal in time brings her closer to Jon's for the Watch scene which will result in two major characters being resurrected closer to each other than in books

2. I don't think Martin would introduce her, bring her back, cheat death if she is not important

Exactly.

On n°2 : whatever Martin is setting up with her, it had to have a lasting impact on Jaime and Brienne, or even other characters. Even if we assume J&B manage to walk out unscathed/defeat her, something big needs to happen with them, or else Martin has really been wasting his time, and I don't think he's senile yet.

[TheWolvesRemember]

I'm more surprised that they completely excised Tysha's story. That really ruined Tyrion's and Jamie's character developments and has significant implications on the plot for the rest of the series.

-If Tyrion never finds out that Jaime knew about Tysha's true history, why would be turn on his family and join Aegon/Dany, knowing that a Targaryen conquest of Westeros would mean the execution of his brother?

-- If Varys is the one to tell him, it cheapens Jamie's development because he never confesses to knowing about Tysha, and Tyrion never finds out that Jaime betrayed him. Surely even show-Tyrion knows better than to just take Varys at his word?

-- And if Varys is the one going with Tyrion to Essos, how is he going to be back in KL in time to kill Kevan?

To me, they really butchered Tyrion, which is really sad, as he's arguably one of the most interesting characters ever conceived on book or screen.

[Chebyshov]

To that I say: So What?

So what if Lady Stoneheart doesn't have any lasting impact on the plot in the novels?

The show gave us "Ros" and "Talisa" and innumerable brothel scenes that have no meaning. They could have given us Lady Stoneheart as well.

Oh I don't disagree at all. But given the number of new characters we're getting next season, I could see them trimming anything viewed as extraneous. I think that is a poor decision if that's what motivated them, but we really won't know their intentions until next year.

For me this is odd for two reasons:

1. Pushing her reveal in time brings her closer to Jon's for the Watch scene which will result in two major characters being resurrected closer to each other than in books

2. I don't think Martin would introduce her, bring her back, cheat death if she is not important

Sums up my thoughts rather well. Though Jon is still stuck in his ASOS plotline, so it's possible he won't be stabbed next season.

[HairGrowsBack]

I'm more surprised that they completely excised Tysha's story. That really ruined Tyrion's and Jamie's character developments and has significant implications on the plot for the rest of the series.

-If Tyrion never finds out that Jaime knew about Tysha's true history, why would be turn on his family and join Aegon/Dany, knowing that a Targaryen conquest of Westeros would mean the execution of his brother?

-- If Varys is the one to tell him, it cheapens Jamie's development because he never confesses to knowing about Tysha, and Tyrion never finds out that Jaime betrayed him. Surely even show-Tyrion knows better than to just take Varys at his word?

-- And if Varys is the one going with Tyrion to Essos, how is he going to be back in KL in time to kill Kevan?

To me, they really butchered Tyrion, which is really sad, as he's arguably one of the most interesting characters ever conceived on book or screen.

Mej, Jaime's character development has been all over the place this season anyway, and Tyrion's been whitewashed from day one. It was but a foolish hope to think it might change.

[Dany4eva]

Is it possible for D&D to get fired from the show? They are horrible

[kacunnin]

I'm more surprised that they completely excised Tysha's story. That really ruined Tyrion's and Jamie's character developments and has significant implications on the plot for the rest of the series.

-If Tyrion never finds out that Jaime knew about Tysha's true history, why would be turn on his family and join Aegon/Dany, knowing that a Targaryen conquest of Westeros would mean the execution of his brother?

-- If Varys is the one to tell him, it cheapens Jamie's development because he never confesses to knowing about Tysha, and Tyrion never finds out that Jaime betrayed him. Surely even show-Tyrion knows better than to just take Varys at his word?

-- And if Varys is the one going with Tyrion to Essos, how is he going to be back in KL in time to kill Kevan?

To me, they really butchered Tyrion, which is really sad, as he's arguably one of the most interesting characters ever conceived on book or screen.

It's pretty clear right now that the show is dropping the entire Tysha reveal. But I have to admit that I'm surprised -- why bring her up on the show at all if you're not going to use her as the catalyst for Tyrion's big move? There was no real reason (in last night's episode) for Tyrion to go up to his father's rooms in the first place! Jaime had set him free, Varys was waiting to sneak him away, and no bad news had been delivered. So why go up to the Tower?

And I totally agree that Tyrion now has no motivation for joining forces with Aegon/Dany against the Lannisters, since he and Jaime are still buddy-buddy. Why would he betray Jaime now? He wouldn't!

So yeah, it's mind-boggling.

[Angmar]

It just doesn't work as well introducing her next season.

It could have been a neat parallel- as Tywin dies Cat is resurrected, and would've made a nice contrast to the season opening- Tywin forging Ice, the victory of the Lannisters over the massacrated Starks, and the season ends with the Lannisters falling apart, while the Starks are gaining power.

But no, for the Lannisters to fall apart we would've had Tysha, and god knows the show wants to keep Jaime and Tyrion as bros...

[Knight of Thorns]

They missed a huge opportunity. Let's just hope she'll be in at some future point.

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

Now I assume her revelation will be a prologue scene for season 5. A perfect excitement before the opening credits :)

[Chebyshov]

Now I assume her revelation will be a prologue scene for season 5. A perfect excitement before the opening credits :)

If I were to script it, I'd have her close episode 1. (Season 5 casting spoilers)

I'd have the Maggy the Frog flashback be the cold-open, because we know we're getting that at some point anyway.

In the past the show hasn't been big on season cliffhangers, but as I said before, I think we're beyond the point of being able to make reasonable, educated guesses.

[Bael's Bastard]

Lady stoneheart?

They have been known to move things around from their place in the books, so it isn't inconceivable that they are waiting until next season. I think it would have been cool to hear reports from time to time of Freys being hanged even if holding off on revealing her. But I would be disappointed if she doesn't show up really early next season (let alone at all).