Joffrey was NOT worse than Aerys

[honeyed chicken]

Joffrey isn't that bad seriously, I don't understand the hate on this stupid kid.

I pity him but I do not hate him he was just pathetic but he never did anything as bad as Aerys's burning people for the fun.

Gregor,Ramsay,Roose,half of the NW, Aerys,Aegon the unworthy are all worse than him.

Daenerys will join this list soon enough.

He is a character in a book, so all of this is hypothetical.

But if we take that hypothetical into the real world what would your judgement be of somebody who has his guardsmen beat his 12 (13?) y.o. betrothed because her brother won a victory? That does not strike you as being worthy of hate?

Aerys burning Sansa's grandfather in his armor was certainly worse, but Joff was restrained by his mother. Every indication points to him meeting or surpassing his grandfather ( ;) ) in time.

Aerys was burning people alive and raping his WIFE not a whore or a baseborn woman HIS WIFE.

And Aerys tried to have his whole city burned.

Someone like Little Walder is worse than Joffrey in my eyes.

No question: Aerys wanting to burn the entire KL was the most heinous act - or planned act.

Little Walder is a garden variety mean SOB. Met lots of his like itrw. I have never (so far as I know - they tend to camouflage themselves to stay out of jail or mental hospitals) met anyone like either Joff or Aerys.

Little Walder Frey is basically becoming another Ramsay someone who's WAY worse than Joffrey.

When did Joffrey actually enjoy hurting people? Only when he has a grudge against them.

He's terrible and cruel i'm not defending him but I feel like the reason he is hated so much is because he actually did wrong things to very popular characters (Ned,Sansa,Arya).

I don't see it. I admit I did not pay much attention to Walder.

Ramsay tends to draw ones focus, but to me, Ramsay and Joff are birds of a feather. Ramsay may be bolder and fear less for his own skin than Joff. Or to put it another way, Joff is a cruel coward. Ramsay is cruel.

When did Joff enjoy hurting people?

At every opportunity it seems to me.

What grudge did he have against the cat when he sliced her open to take the kittens out of her belly?

What grudge did he have against Mycah when he laid Lion's Tooth against the boy's cheek??

None.

Joff toyed with Mycah because he could do so with impunity.

What grudge did he have against Bran when he gave the assassin his knife and sent him to kill Bran?

What we see in Joff is someone who picks his spots, because he is a coward and is afraid of being punished for his cruelty. That's why he has the KG hitting Sansa instead of doing it himself. He is a weasel who finds ways to express his cruelty that won't get him in trouble.

Ultimately, do you think Lady O would have killed him if she didn't truly believe he was a monster who would sooner or later hurt Margaery?

That's the best way to judge a character in a book.

Look at how the other characters react to him. Tyrion saw what he was and rebuked him and hit him. King Robert (who thought Joff was his son) saw what he was and smacked him. LF saw what he was and used it to get whispers to Lady O. When the Tyrells came to KL they were already looking at Joff askance. What they saw and what Sansa told them horrified Lady O enough to commit murder.

Lady O is certainly a ruthless and dangerous old woman, but she didn't take that risk (of getting caught and getting herself executed) for no reason. To me, that act alone tells you everything you need to know about the character of Joffrey Lannister.

[Aemond's Eye]

Who do you think died at Summerhall who would otherwise have been able to control Aerys? Duncan the Tall and Aegon V would almost certainly have been dead anyway by the end of Aerys's reign (and of course Aerys wouldn't have been king at all if Aegon V had still been alive). It seems unlikely that his uncle Duncan the Small would have been able to do anything -- more likely, he'd have been exiled or killed as a possible threat to Aerys (and before him Jahaerys).

I doubt Duncan would have been exiled when he'd removed himself from the line of succession. Besides, if Aerys hadn't gotten so caught up in his ego, he wouldn't have marched to Duskendale with only one knight of the Kingsguard, and such a small force. Had that not happened, he may not have descended into madness.

Would Mad King Aerys have killed his uncle? Possibly. But he wasn't always the Mad King. Hell, Duncan may even have been an advisor to him, and seeing as how he'd forsaken any claim to the throne, Aerys may have turned to him when he began to become annoyed with the "Tywin really rules" stuff.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Cersei and Aerys are the 2 worst rules Westeros has ever had. I'm not sure who was worse. Joffrey was terrible but he is just an extension of Cersei's terrible parenting and spoiling her already rotten son. She personally has done more damage than anyone I can think of. Aerys was planning on burning the Red Keep but in the end he did not, so it hard to lay something that did not happen at his feet, of course he is terrible and probably would have done it. But we can really only sentence people for crimes they did commit, not crimes they would have committed. Cersei on the other hand went through with burning part of the castle, with hopes a few people were inside, of course she was wrong and paranoid thinking TYrion had been hiding in the walls with no food or water for months........She's crazy.

[honeyed chicken]

Cersei and Aerys are the 2 worst rules Westeros has ever had. I'm not sure who was worse. Joffrey was terrible but he is just an extension of Cersei's terrible parenting and spoiling her already rotten son. She personally has done more damage than anyone I can think of. Aerys was planning on burning the Red Keep but in the end he did not, so it hard to lay something that did not happen at his feet, of course he is terrible and probably would have done it. But we can really only sentence people for crimes they did commit, not crimes they would have committed. Cersei on the other hand went through with burning part of the castle, with hopes a few people were inside, of course she was wrong and paranoid thinking TYrion had been hiding in the walls with no food or water for months........She's crazy.

I don't disagree about Cersei's parenting, but that doesn't explain the difference between Tommen (who every one agrees is a sweet and rational child) and Joffrey. Joffrey clearly brings his own nuttiness to the table independent of Cersei.

[HexMachina]

I don't disagree about Cersei's parenting, but that doesn't explain the difference between Tommen (who every one agrees is a sweet and rational child) and Joffrey. Joffrey clearly brings his own nuttiness to the table independent of Cersei.

Agree to an extent, but there is also the fact that Tommen was never expected to rule. As such, he would have been had less of this "a King must be strong!" from.his mother. But Joff certainly brought his own to the table - e.g. I can't imagine what kind of parenting would have taught him to cut open a cat or butcher his brother's fawn...Some of his cruelty as a person.seems to be entirely his own

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't disagree about Cersei's parenting, but that doesn't explain the difference between Tommen (who every one agrees is a sweet and rational child) and Joffrey. Joffrey clearly brings his own nuttiness to the table independent of Cersei.

Agree to an extent, but there is also the fact that Tommen was never expected to rule. As such, he would have been had less of this "a King must be strong!" from.his mother. But Joff certainly brought his own to the table - e.g. I can't imagine what kind of parenting would have taught him to cut open a cat or butcher his brother's fawn...Some of his cruelty as a person.seems to be entirely his own

Yes for sure he was a nasty little shit on his own, but she did not help him at all. If she (or Robert) had raised him properly I bet many of his 'short-comings' could have been avoided.

[FireIsMyChampion]

Aerys ruled for many years peacefully and without incident then lost the plot and went crazy and did some terrible things.

Joffery ruled abysmally for next to no time and did some terrible things, out of the two I'd say he was worse.

If Aerys had actually managed to blow up KL that's a different story.

[Aemond's Eye]

Yes for sure he was a nasty little shit on his own, but she did not help him at all. If she (or Robert) had raised him properly I bet many of his 'short-comings' could have been avoided.

I don't really see how. He comes across as a sociopath - there's very little that his parents (including Robert here) could have done that would have prevented him being a cruel sadist. Sociopaths with the level of power a monarch had in a feudal society? Bad combination all round.

[JonSnow4President]

So, the initial comparison is Joffrey did this (*cough, in a few months, cough*), but Aerys did this which is worse (*cough, over years, cough*)

Yeah Alex, I"ll take the not comparing like objects for 100 please.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aerys was burning people alive and raping his WIFE not a whore or a baseborn woman HIS WIFE.

So, it's less bad to rape a whore than a wife?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't really see how. He comes across as a sociopath - there's very little that his parents (including Robert here) could have done that would have prevented him being a cruel sadist. Sociopaths with the level of power a monarch had in a feudal society? Bad combination all round.

C'mon now, anyone in the world can benefit from a little proper parenting. Telling your kid 'no' sometimes or scolding him for ripping the guts out of pregnant animals. Or telling him not to torment his little brother. Just basic parenting here is all I am talking about. Jaime summed it up best when he told the KG "If Tommen asks you to saddle his horse that's fine, but if he asks you to kill the horse, come to me." (paraphrasing) A little bit of observation and discipline would have gone a long way in Joffrey's case IMO.

[White Ravens]

I'll give it to Aerys for the magnitude of his monstrous acts with the caveat that Joffrey was just getting warmed up and would have won the championship easily had he lived long enough.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't see how Joff was worse than Aerys.

Aerys tried to kill thousands of people in order to prevent Robert's reign over living people you can't get worse than that.

[JonSnow4President]

I don't see how Joff was worse than Aerys.

Aerys tried to kill thousands of people in order to prevent Robert's reign over living people you can't get worse than that.

Joffrey ordered the death of hundreds or thousands of people because someone through a cow pie at him.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Joffrey ordered the death of hundreds or thousands of people because someone through a cow pie at him.

But he didn't planned to kill those who participated at the riot, Aerys was planning to kill all the people living in KL.

[the trees have eyes]

I don't see how Joff was worse than Aerys.

Aerys tried to kill thousands of people in order to prevent Robert's reign over living people you can't get worse than that.

Aerys was mad. We would commit him to a psychiatric prison today rather than hold him fit to stand trial and answer for his crimes.

Joff is not mad, he is just a viciously cruel and spiteful megalomaniac.

I think Aerys could have been a good king but his madness made his reign very different. Joffrey is not mad and though we are conditioned to find it hard to believe a child is truly evil by both nature and nurture he seems to be a terrible person and king in the making.

It's academic as they were both responsible for a lot of misery, capricious punishments and cruel executions (did Aerys kill or maim more people than Joffrey?).

[Aemond's Eye]

C'mon now, anyone in the world can benefit from a little proper parenting. Telling your kid 'no' sometimes or scolding him for ripping the guts out of pregnant animals. Or telling him not to torment his little brother. Just basic parenting here is all I am talking about. Jaime summed it up best when he told the KG "If Tommen asks you to saddle his horse that's fine, but if he asks you to kill the horse, come to me." (paraphrasing) A little bit of observation and discipline would have gone a long way in Joffrey's case IMO.

And yet there are real world examples of sociopathic killers who had such upbringings and still ended up sociopathic killers. It's a bit simplistic to suggest some discipline or affection at the right time overcomes this.

[JonSnow4President]

But he didn't planned to kill those who participated at the riot, Aerys was planning to kill all the people living in KL.

So it's worse to plan killing thousands, instead of being so rotten you jump immediately to killing thousands?

IMO, it's a stupid question. They're both at absolute 0 on the goodness scale. Just think it's funny how some people are saying one is better than the other.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Aerys was mad. We would commit him to a psychiatric prison today rather than hold him fit to stand trial and answer for his crimes.

Joff is not mad, he is just a viciously cruel and spiteful megalomaniac.

I think Aerys could have been a good king but his madness made his reign very different. Joffrey is not mad and though we are conditioned to find it hard to believe a child is truly evil by both nature and nurture he seems to be a terrible person and king in the making.

It's academic as they were both responsible for a lot of misery, capricious punishments and cruel executions (did Aerys kill or maim more people than Joffrey?).

Aerys could had been a good king sure as Joff could be. The point is that it doesn't matter what you could be or what you was it's what you have done and what both Aerys and Joff had done is that they were monsters.

So it's worse to plan killing thousands, instead of being so rotten you jump immediately to killing thousands?

IMO, it's a stupid question. They're both at absolute 0 on the goodness scale. Just think it's funny how some people are saying one is better than the other.

Yes. It's like first degree murder (Aerys) second degree murder (Joff). However I never said that any of them was at any "goodness scale".

[JonSnow4President]

Aerys could had been a good king sure as Joff could be. The point is that it doesn't matter what you could be or what you was it's what you have done and what both Aerys and Joff had done is that they were monsters.

Yes. It's like first degree murder (Aerys) second degree murder (Joff). However I never said that any of them was at any "goodness scale".

Oh, wasn't referring to you in specific. And the absolute 0 on the goodness scale was just my way of saying they are very, very bad people.