Arya Surprise?

[JonisHenryTudor]

No one ever said that Brienne is a man. it wouldn't be gay. Asha though...

Gay = happy,or it used to. I think Brienne would be happy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

We've established this. She isn't a man, but she has penis envy. Its so obvious, I don't know how you can't see this

Weasel...

makes sense.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Gay = happy,or it used to. I think Brienne would be happy.

No, she wouldn't. She's shallow. She's all for extra-good looking men.

[JonSnow4President]

The comic sans = sarcasm is catching on!!!

[JonisHenryTudor]

The comic sans = sarcasm is catching on!!!

Yes perfect, except I am too lazy right now to change it. But hey ambiguity is good, and in light of this discussion well.....

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Dah Dah Dah...DUKE, DUKE,DUKE, DUKE OF TROLLS,,,TROLLS, TROLLS,TROLLS...DUKE OF TROLLS...

[John Suburbs]

That might be true, but medieval doctors would have no idea either way. If there were a deformity, the child would be killed or sent off so it wouldn't matter anyway. I doubt Martin wrote this into the story though. I doubt Maester Luwin has the ability to use advanced genetic testing to check Ayra, plus he had no reason. My objection is from a historical pov. In a Westerosi context, she may not have been slain, but sent to the wall or perhaps to work for the High Septon? Or sent to Essos or a whore house. Then again Tywin kept Tyrion, which would be against the grain in terms of medieval history.

As far as being bad for the story goes... well I can't imagine an Ayra pov somewhere in WoW of DoS where in the middle of an assassination attempt, or a reunion with her family, her thoughts are redirected to her genitalia and why something is dreadfully wrong.

But they wouldn't know she was deformed. As a baby, she looks like a girl, she pees like a girl. As far as anyone can tell, she is a normal girl, and she is raised as Lady Arya.

And implying that her actions reflect on her gender isn't sexist how?

Nothing sexist about it, other than what is already set up in the story. Arya is clearly drawn toward the fighting, warring activities that characterize boys. Could be she is just a tomboy, maybe but maybe not.

:agree: Basically this says it all

I totally see the sarcasm, but that gives me nightmarish flashbacks to my college classes on post-moderism and deconstruction. :fencing:

Good, we're agreed then. It would be stupid and annoying, but not impossible.

She could have shown his? her? penis to Gendry and pass as a boy. She's not.

She doesn't have a penis she can show. All her boy parts look like girl parts.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Sure I'll play along.

So she thinks she and everyone else think she's girl because it appears she has a vagina. But in reality she actually has a penis that looks like a vagina. Am I right so far?

If so, for this to even matter, Bran must die, or at least continue to be assumed dead. Then she comes back from Bravos and reveals herself. Somewhere along the way she realized her penis is inside out and fixes it? Then boom Lord of Winterfell!

Is that where you were going OP?

"Hey Stannis, Rickon has no birthright, take a look at my shlong. I'm the Lord of WInterfell now bitches!"

[Faceless Man Friday]

There is textural evidence to refute this "theory". In A Clash of Kings, Arya 6, Martin writes that while on the road to Harrenhall as a captive of the Mountain's men, "They had even taken her stupid secret...She held it as long as she could, but finally she had to squat by a bush and skin down her breeches in front of all of them. It was that or wet herself. Hot Pie gaped at her with big moon eyes, but no one else even troubled to look."

It would not make sense for GRRM to keep her sexuality a secret after writing the scene where the secret of her sex has been revealed. It would defy reason to think that if her secret were more than just that she was a girl it would not be mentioned here where it is clear that Hot Pie saw her naked. I might also add that she was not "normal" others may have taken the trouble to look. The meaning of this passage is clear. Arya is a girl and the only one that was surprised by that was Hot Pie.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Get ready for this: Lyanna was a man. Boom! How do I know? Arya = Boy --> Arya looks like Lyanna --> Lyanna looks like a boy --> Lyanna is a man. Also, get this: R + L stands for both Rhaeggar + Lyanna AND Renly + Loras. Do you think Renly and Loras had secret babies? No! And neither did Rhaeggar and his lovely man toy, Lyanna.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Then there's the whole issue that genitals do not determine gender identification, which makes this whole discussion outdated.

[HexMachina]

Then there's the whole issue that genitals do not determine gender identification, which makes this whole discussion outdated.

Hmmm. So Dr. John Money thought. But look where that led to. Poor Bruce/Brenda/David.

ETA: His theory was pretty much debunked by his own research

[JonisHenryTudor]

But they wouldn't know she was deformed. As a baby, she looks like a girl, she pees like a girl. As far as anyone can tell, she is a normal girl, and she is raised as Lady Arya.

Nothing sexist about it, other than what is already set up in the story. Arya is clearly drawn toward the fighting, warring activities that characterize boys. Could be she is just a tomboy, maybe but maybe not.

Good, we're agreed then. It would be stupid and annoying, but not impossible.

She doesn't have a penis she can show. All her boy parts look like girl parts.

Which is precisely why Martin would not do this.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Hmmm. So Dr. John Money thought. But look where that led to. Poor Bruce/Brenda/David.

ETA: His theory was pretty much debunked by his own research

Yep.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Hmmm. So Dr. John Money thought. But look where that led to. Poor Bruce/Brenda/David.

ETA: His theory was pretty much debunked by his own research

Indeed. I don't want to derail the topic, and I suppose I could have been more clear in what I was saying, but that case is consistent with what I was getting at. I was not trying to imply that gender identification is totally learned, which seems to have been the assumption that led to David's reassignment. I was just trying to point out the experiences of transgender individuals. David was not transgendered, and as a result he never felt at home as the girl he was raised as. There are plenty of people, though, who are transgender, and do not feel at home in the gender they were assigned at birth based on their genitals. This is not to say that I at all condone what happened to David Reimer and support the forced assignment of gender, but we should not use that case as a tool to erase the experiences of transgender folk when it actually provides support for their experiences in the first place. Remember, transgender people have been forcefully assigned a gender they did not identify with, just like David was.

(I should say that I am somewhat versed in topics of gender identification, but by no means an expert and, as always, have much to learn and improve on. That being said, if anyone with more fluency than me in this topic has anything to add, please do, and if I offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. Please call me out)

[Stannis'_Barber]

Yea might be true. Maybe Dany is also Rhaegar.

[Bran17]

No, just no. :ack:
That would make the character even more lame than she already is.

[John Suburbs]

Sure I'll play along.

So she thinks she and everyone else think she's girl because it appears she has a vagina. But in reality she actually has a penis that looks like a vagina. Am I right so far?

If so, for this to even matter, Bran must die, or at least continue to be assumed dead. Then she comes back from Bravos and reveals herself. Somewhere along the way she realized her penis is inside out and fixes it? Then boom Lord of Winterfell!

Is that where you were going OP?

"Hey Stannis, Rickon has no birthright, take a look at my shlong. I'm the Lord of WInterfell now bitches!"

I'm not going anywhere with this. A merely raised it as a slightly crazy, but not totally crazy, possibility.

There is textural evidence to refute this "theory". In A Clash of Kings, Arya 6, Martin writes that while on the road to Harrenhall as a captive of the Mountain's men, "They had even taken her stupid secret...She held it as long as she could, but finally she had to squat by a bush and skin down her breeches in front of all of them. It was that or wet herself. Hot Pie gaped at her with big moon eyes, but no one else even troubled to look."

It would not make sense for GRRM to keep her sexuality a secret after writing the scene where the secret of her sex has been revealed. It would defy reason to think that if her secret were more than just that she was a girl it would not be mentioned here where it is clear that Hot Pie saw her naked. I might also add that she was not "normal" others may have taken the trouble to look. The meaning of this passage is clear. Arya is a girl and the only one that was surprised by that was Hot Pie.

The chapter is from Ayra's POV. Arya thinks she's a girl too, obviously. She was pretending to be a boy, but now she can't keep up the ruse any longer, so that's what is meant by "they had even taken her stupid secret." She has not secretly keep the fact that she really is a boy to herself. She doesn't know. And of course Hot Pie was the only one that was surprised because he is the only one left who thought Arya was a boy to begin with, except for Gendry who already knows she has no junk.

It's not that her sexuality is being kept secret, then, it's that her true sexuality is simply not known, by anyone, least of all Arya. To all outward appearances she looks and functions like a girl. She doesn't look deformed, or a mutant or a he/she. She looks like a perfectly normal girl from birth to her present age, and that's why no one bothers to look at her peeing. If you were in that situation and one of your female co-captives had to stop to pee, would you march over and demand a full vaginal examination just to make sure she was really a girl?

Which is precisely why Martin would not do this.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that all of GM's characters are exactly who and what they seem to be?

I'm surprised that no one has come up with the most glaring inconsistency with the theory: that if Arya was a boy, they would have found five male and one female direwolves in the woods, rather than four and two. My only guess here would be that if the direwolves were sent by Bloodraven and he knew about the Starks from watching them through the heart tree in Winterfell, he though Arya was a girl too. But I'm speculating wildly here.

[MandrakeWench]

Arya is clearly a boy, because - OBVIOUSLY - she is Rhaeger.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

wait... i always thought sansa was the boy. that's why littlefinger wants him. not to marry, but because he actually knows that bran and rickon are alive. sansa is actually ahead of them in the line of succession though.