NFL 2014: Preseason Edition

[awesome possum]

Bears 3rd receiving option Marquess Wilson broke his clavicle yesterday while diving for a pass... in practice. Dude spent the off-season working out with Marshall and Jeffery, he should know better than that. Hopefully he'll be back by Week 2 or 3, as reports say he was looking damned good in camp. With all the attention Marshall and Jeffery will be getting this season, Wilson has the chance to have a huge year for a #3.

[sperry]

Bradford has largely been horrible as well. That's sort of the point. I could just as easily say kellen Clemens would be great if only they gave him some weapons.

That's really not accurate, and you could say that, it would just be wrong.

[Mexal]

SkynJay: That's smart on the Bengals part. I guess I should say that I don't see him earning that full contract. Dalton is pretty good in the regular season, but I'm curious how well he would do without a solid team around him. If the defense wasn't above average I don't see Dalton keeping them in a game that requires a shootout. I also don't see Dalton making his teammates around him better, which is what a top paid QB should do. He'll be under a microscope these next couple years.

I'm curious if Flacco's extension after the SB opened up this mild frenzy of middle of the road QB's getting contracts? Romo and Cutler both got nice ones, and now you can add Kaepernick and Dalton. The cap going up is a reason too.

Here's the great thing about the contract; he can or he cannot earn it. If he doesn't earn the full contract, it's like 13-15 mil a year (it's an extension so this year's salary gets added in dropping per year number to lower), which is where mid range QBs should be paid in today's market if top QBs are being paid 22m. If he does earn the full contract, takes us to the SB and wins, it jumps up to 17-19m a year. That's fair in my eyes for a SB winner and it's still not being paid like the top QB in the league. Added in the team options to move on at any point and it's an excellent contract.

As for whether Dalton is a guy who can win the big one or make his teammates better, the answer is he's not capable of doing that as of last year but maybe he makes a jump this year going into his 4th. That tends to happen with QBs. It used to be 3-5 years before QBs fully reach their potential yet we judge Dalton on 2-3 years because he's failed in the playoffs already. You see on every show, in every article, Dalton's numbers during the regular season (48 games) which are pretty decent for a new QB, especially a 2nd round pick (look at Brees first 3 years when you get a chance...its' not easy) but what you also see with them is his playoff stats which are horrible over the course of 3 games, two of which happened in his first and 2nd year. On one side, you compare 48 games. On the other, you compare 3. And you make your entire judgement on the deal based on 3 games. Can we say small sample size? Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning all lost their first 3 playoff games. Others have won one but lost the next 3. Playoffs are a team game. Yes, Dalton was poor at times, but he didn't get help as I pointed out in an earlier post.

I guess my point is, who knows how Dalton will do this year and who knows how he'll do when he enters the playoffs again. Players get it at some point and while he was making some poor decisions, he also makes some really good ones. Can he cut out those bad ones? Can he get more help from his players in big situations? I don't know. But I hope so and the Bengals hope so and if he does, we have a great contract for a franchise QB. If he doesn't, they can cut bait at any time without much impact on the team. It's a great contract for Dalton and the team and I stand behind it despite all the talking heads panning him and even though I'm not entirely sure Dalton is the future.

[Nictarion]

You're making me feel a lot better about the contract Mexal. I had pretty mixed feelings about it, but you make a great case for it being a mutually beneficial deal.

[Mexal]

You're making me feel a lot better about the contract Mexal. I had pretty mixed feelings about it, but you make a great case for it being a mutually beneficial deal.

It is the absolute best we could hope for knowing that Dalton was going to get a new contract. Absolute best.

[l2 0 5 5]

Mexal: I think Dalton has a pretty good team around him. That's where I imagine a lot of the frustration comes from, and questioning from my perspective. I like the defense a lot. Can get to the QB and cause turnovers. AJ Green is one of the best in the league. Gresham/Eifert combo is nice, and Bernard with the rookie they got should be a good tandem as well. We've seen young QB's in their first couple seasons win Super Bowls with a good team around them. Roethlisberger, Brady, Russell Wilson (Okay, Bengals defense is not as good as the Seahawks...). I'm not even saying win a SB. Just a decent game and a couple playoff wins are warranted. But as you stated, he's progressed in his first three seasons, and I think this year will be a very fair assessment of where his ceiling is at. This postseason, I should say. BTW: To validate the contract, and to see more improvement, how many playoff wins are people in Cincy expecting from him this year? 1? 2? Just curious.

[Mexal]

Mexal: I think Dalton has a pretty good team around him. That's where I imagine a lot of the frustration comes from, and questioning from my perspective. I like the defense a lot. Can get to the QB and cause turnovers. AJ Green is one of the best in the league. Gresham/Eifert combo is nice, and Bernard with the rookie they got should be a good tandem as well. We've seen young QB's in their first couple seasons win Super Bowls with a good team around them. Roethlisberger, Brady, Russell Wilson (Okay, Bengals defense is not as good as the Seahawks...). I'm not even saying win a SB. Just a decent game and a couple playoff wins are warranted. But as you stated, he's progressed in his first three seasons, and I think this year will be a very fair assessment of where his ceiling is at. This postseason, I should say. BTW: To validate the contract, and to see more improvement, how many playoff wins are people in Cincy expecting from him this year? 1? 2? Just curious.

Just remember, those teams were mostly veteran teams that won despite their QB, not because of their QB. Cincinnati is not a veteran team like NE and Pitt though Seattle wasn't a veteran team at all so they're more the exception than the rule in my eyes.

Looking at Cincinnati, this is where we are after last year.

Offense

Dalton - 3 years

Green - 3 years

Bernard - 1 year

Hill - rookie

M. Jones - 2 years

M. Sanu - 2 years

Gresham - 4 years

Eifert - 1 year

Whitworth - Vet

Boling - 3 years (ACL)

Bodine - rookie

Zeitler - 2 years

Smith - Vet

That's the offense. Notice the pattern? Young which is part of the reason for the inconsistency. If Dalton came into the team now as a rookie, might be a different story than coming into the team when these players were being built around him. The talent that is there now is infinitely better and more mature than what was there in 2011. The defense isn't much older except in the secondary where Hall, Jones, Newman, Nelson are vets but the front 7 is a similar mix (Burfict, Atkins, Dunlap, Hunt, Still, Thompson, Rey, Lamur, DiManche) of guys that were drafted in 2010 or later and haven't completely realized their true ability.

I guess my point is that to expect Dalton to come in and take us to the SB over the last few years is expecting a miracle. To expect him to take us there over the next 2-3 is realistic. Our window was opened last year and I expect it to close in the next 3 years. Is Dalton the guy? I don't know, but hopefully the team can elevate him if he can't elevate them.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I guess my point is that to expect Dalton to come in and take us to the SB over the last few years is expecting a miracle. To expect him to take us there over the next 2-3 is realistic. Our window was opened last year and I expect it to close in the next 3 years. Is Dalton the guy? I don't know, but hopefully the team can elevate him if he can't elevate them.

I don't think anyone is saying he should've took you guys to the SB anytime over the last 3 seasons, but they sure as hell had no business losing to a "backed into the playoffs" Charger squad in their own house in the first round. You mentioned other teams winning playoff games despite their young QBs, but it's another thing alltogether when you're losing those games mostly due to your young QB. I like the kid, but he hasn't shown any improvement in pressure situations.

[Trebla]

So Bears TE Martellus Bennett is suspended INDEFINITELY for bodyslamming rookie first round pick Kyle Fuller. http://espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/story/_/id/11311835/martellus-bennett-chicago-bears-suspended-practice-fight-kyle-fuller

And in NSFW news, Deadspin presents us with the one and only Jerry Jones who appears to have his pants down with two ladies. :lmao: http://deadspin.com/heres-a-lady-rubbing-her-face-on-jerry-joness-crotch-1616340521

[Mexal]

I don't think anyone is saying he should've took you guys to the SB anytime over the last 3 seasons, but they sure as hell had no business losing to a "backed into the playoffs" Charger squad in their own house in the first round. You mentioned other teams winning playoff games despite their young QBs, but it's another thing alltogether when you're losing those games mostly due to your young QB. I like the kid, but he hasn't shown any improvement in pressure situations.

Trust me, I know. But as I said in another post, Gio Bernard fumbled the ball at the 5 yard line of the Chargers in the 2nd Q which would have given us a 17-7 lead. That changes the game and changes what Gruden does in the 2nd half. Green dropped a perfectly thrown pass that likely goes for a TD since he was wide open. Bengals were excellent running on the Chargers the first time they played them yet we threw the ball 25 straight times when down by one score. That's on Gruden. The offensive line was excellent picking up pressure in the first half but got manhandled in the 2nd which is when Dalton fell a part. The defense gave up 200 yards rushing when they were the third ranked defense in the league and were unable to stop them on 3rd down. That's on Zimmer and the defensive players.

My point is, Dalton sucked. I get that. I know that. I lived through the disappointment. But there has to be a realization that if the other players also played up to their level, Dalton might not have sucked as much if the game went a different way, if the score was different, if the defense played better and not like the hurt defense they were (9 guys on IR including our two best) and so on. They had no business losing but they lost. Shit happens. We're dealing with small sample sizes here and as we all know, on any given Sunday, anything can happen. I don't think that means they cannot win this year, nor do I think that Dalton is incapable of winning in the playoffs which is the only narrative I see right now.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Trust me, I know. But as I said in another post, Gio Bernard fumbled the ball at the 5 yard line of the Chargers in the 2nd Q which would have given us a 17-7 lead. That changes the game and changes what Gruden does in the 2nd half. Green dropped a perfectly thrown pass that likely goes for a TD since he was wide open. Bengals were excellent running on the Chargers the first time they played them yet we threw the ball 25 straight times when down by one score. That's on Gruden. The offensive line was excellent picking up pressure in the first half but got manhandled in the 2nd which is when Dalton fell a part. The defense gave up 200 yards rushing when they were the third ranked defense in the league and were unable to stop them on 3rd down. That's on Zimmer and the defensive players.

My point is, Dalton sucked. I get that. I know that. I lived through the disappointment. But there has to be a realization that if the other players also played up to their level, Dalton might not have sucked as much if the game went a different way, if the score was different, if the defense played better and not like the hurt defense they were (9 guys on IR including our two best) and so on. They had no business losing but they lost. Shit happens. We're dealing with small sample sizes here and as we all know, on any given Sunday, anything can happen. I don't think that means they cannot win this year, nor do I think that Dalton is incapable of winning in the playoffs which is the only narrative I see right now.

I hear ya. I don't believe he's incapable of winning in the playoffs either, but up to this point that's the only narrative he has provided.

[Commodore]

Hard Knocks starts tonight

[Rockroi]

The Flacco contract is probably the reason we're seeing these team-friendly contracts like the ones for Dalton and Kaepernick: high-dollar but with an easy escape for the team. Because the Niners and Bengals rightly did not want to emulate that contract. Rising cap or not, Flacco's contract is going to weigh down the Ravens for years to come.

Yeah, this is the way I read it as well. Kaep and Dalton have similar contracts- even with signing bonuses, they both only have like 2 years guaranteed and any guaranteed money after that is only that way in case of injury; if the team just cuts them because they suck, there is no cap hit (other than dead money via signing bonus).

Look at Kaep's contract: 6 years, $126 Million. Wow, huge , right? Meh.... Kaep's signing bonus is kinda small- what like $12 Million? Spread over its 6 years that's 2 mil a year (basically nothing). Now, yeah, if they cut Kaep tomorrow, that bonus gets accelerated to dead money for a season, but who cares? Kaep's contract is guaranteed for inujury only, not getting cut because he sucks or is too expensive. Also, Kaep's salary goes up as he gets older, but because its "pay-as-you-go" the 49'ers can just cut him if he's getting too expensive for his production. The first two seasons are kinda cheap- 2 years-$28 mill... its flat pay-as-you-go after that.

According to Jason La Canfora of the NFL Network, Kaep's salary for 5 years is ~$82 Million, or about $16.4 Million... which was the franchise tag for Qb's in 2014.

That sounds like a great deal for the 49'ers. And, in fairness, its not a bad deal for Kaep at all, but its certainly not this Flacco-and-chain deal that the Ravens have with Unibrow.

Dalton's numbers are almost the same (I know- people - you are bored by this but I promise to say something bat-shit crazy about the Pats at the end of this; its just that Contract formation in the Salary Cap age ... FASCINATES me... JUst hang in there and I'll give you a pay off in the end... phrasing). According to Mike Florio, here is Dalton's contact's practical realities:

Dalton receives a signing bonus of $12 million and a roster bonus in three days of $5 million. That's a total of $17 million out of the gates. Coupled with his $986,000 base salary (which isn't guaranteed as a legal matter but it is as a practical matter), Dalton will make $18 million in the first year of the deal.

Then, on the third day of the 2015 league year in March, Dalton earns a $4 million roster bonus. He also has a $3 million non-guaranteed base salary in 2015. That's $25 million over two years.

The rest of the base deal is simple. In addition to annual workout bonuses of $200,000, Dalton has base salaries of $10.5 million in 2016, $13.1 million in 2017, $13.7 million in 2018, $16 million in 2019, and $17.5 million in 2020.

And its pay-as-you go; guaranteed only for injuries. If the Benglas cut Dalton after the second year, the cap-hit is only the accelerated signing bonus. THus, Dalton is 2 years/$25 Mil, 3/$35.7 Mil, 4/$49 Mil, 5/$62M, 6/$79M, 8/$97M. And each year at the Bengals' sole discretion.

After that, all salaries are tied to playoff performance bonuses- (Dalton is 0-3 in the playoffs). Reaching the divisional round of the postseason earns him an additional $1 million for each remaining year; reaching the conference championship, another $500,000; for a Super Bowl win, another $1.5 million.

To me, that sounds like a very basic contract for an average to above-average QB. Nothing more.

ETA: IN Patriots news, apparently Brandon Browner has looked great, but Revis has looked insane. So much so that apparently Bob Kraft has started informal talks with Revis to sign him to a longer term contract.

So... yeah... I got nothing; I'm just a very boring person.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

That's no payoff at all, but the read as a whole was good. :P

[James Arryn]

Rockroi-

I read a couple articles before the Dalton deal was done that speculated that Baalke & Co. had potentially rewritten the rule book with the Kaepernick contract, and that Bengals officials had openly acknowledged that the Kaep deal was an eye-opener for them and that it would serve as a model for them and others moving forward. If the Niners weren't suffering serious injuries every time they look at film...someone else probably tore something while I'm typing this...I might be enjoying this smidgen of Bill Walshesque trend-setting.

[SkynJay]

In a way I am glad to see the contracts written like this. It is little secret that most the numbers in NFL contracts were bogus and teams could drop players at almost any time. At least new they are being honest about it.

[Rockroi]

In a way I am glad to see the contracts written like this. It is little secret that most the numbers in NFL contracts were bogus and teams could drop players at almost any time. At least new they are being honest about it.

I don't know if that's a NFL thing of a "media" thing. Frankly, I think teams and player-agents are duplicitous about contracts on purpose; for player-agents its easy - they can make the big, splashy headline that declares the $$$$$ they supposedly "got" for their clients; the player can walk around saying "Yup; I got $$$$$." But the team likes it too because it provides them with covering fire when another player is available and they won't sign him. Teams don't want to say "Because that guy is a fucking asshole" or "He's actually a terrible player" (in the case of Albert Haynesworth, it was both); they can say "Golly, gee-wiz; we have all this money "tied up" in other contracts; we can't sign that guy." It also pacifies fans by showing them (erroneously) that they are "investing" in the team.

I think the salary cap is a miraculously misunderstood monster; its the excuse for every team's failures and the defeated enemy for every team's successes. But is that really the truth? I'm not sure.

[Mexal]

In a way I am glad to see the contracts written like this. It is little secret that most the numbers in NFL contracts were bogus and teams could drop players at almost any time. At least new they are being honest about it.

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I mean, in theory, they can, but like we saw with Mark Sanchez, if you create a contract that gives a shitload of guaranteed money then they can't drop players at any time. QB contracts were the worst and for average QBs like Dalton, Kaepernick and especially Flacco, these contracts are necessary protection for the franchises since before Kaep's contract, these QBs were forced to be locked in for 3-4 years at high salaries.

So this is new. Contracts for mid tiered players? Sure, that's true. Contracts for upper echelon players or QBs? Not true at all.

[Sivin]

I shudder to think of what Luck could ask for, and get.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I shudder to think of what Luck could ask for, and get.

I'm sure he could command a "back up the trucks" sort of a number, but I get the feeling that guy is a team player who will take a team friendly contract just to benefit the cap. Think you guys have a jewel there.