The Legality of Marriages

[Mithras]

Here, we are considering only the marriages in which at least one of the sides is highborn.

Cregan Karstark’s lips skinned back from his teeth. “Alys was promised to me.” Though past fifty, he had been a strong man when he went into the cell. The cold had robbed him of that strength and left him stiff and weak. “My lord father—”

“Your father is a castellan, not a lord. And a castellan has no right to make marriage pacts.”

“My father, Arnolf, is Lord of Karhold.”

“A son comes before an uncle by all the laws I know.”

Cregan pushed himself to his feet and kicked aside the furs clinging to his ankles. “Harrion is dead.”

Or will be soon. “A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys. And she has given her hand in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn.”

We learn that only the lord has the right to make marriage pacts.

The queen pulled free of the eunuch’s touch. “You would not speak so if you were women. Say what you will, my lords, but Joffrey is too proud to settle for Renly’s leavings. He will never consent.”

Tyrion shrugged. “When the king comes of age in three years, he may give or withhold his consent as he pleases. Until then, you are his regent and I am his Hand, and he will marry whomever we tell him to marry. Leavings or no.”

In this case, Joffrey is the Lord of House Baratheon and it is his decision to marry whoever he wants. However, he is also not a man grown yet. That means his regent has the authority to make a marriage agreement until he comes of age. Tyrion (the acting Hand in place of Tywin) speaks with the king’s voice. Though not as strong as the regent’s, his voice carries some weight too.

“No,” Sansa blurted. “No.”

“Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion.”

“They married her to Tyrion Lannister.”

Catelyn’s fingers clutched at his. “The Imp.”

“Yes.”

“He swore to trade her for his brother,” she said numbly. “Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?”

“He’s the Kingslayer’s brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood.” Robb’s fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. “If I could I’d take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.”

Here the thing gets tricky. It is up to the Lord Stark to give Sansa’s hand but since Lord Stark is an enemy of the crown and an attainted traitor, Sansa is the king’s ward and he king can give her hand to whoever he likes. Legally speaking, does it matter had Sansa been a woman grown? I think yes. In that case, just like Alys, she would have the right to marry whoever she likes. In short, Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion is completely legal from Lannister POV.

However, the Stark POV does not recognize Joffrey as the rightful king. For them, this marriage is invalid. But it can only be declared invalid if they overthrow the Lannisters. This is the same problem we see in conflicting claims in times of crisis. The winner is always declared to be the rightful side and the losers are called traitors.

Speaking of Tyrion, was his marriage to Tysha lawful? I don’t think so because Lord Tywin never gave his consent and Tyrion was not a man grown at that time.

This also brings up another question. I too believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married in front of a heart tree and/or by a wandering septon.

If Aerys gave his consent to Rhaegar in marrying Lyanna, there is no problem for him. But if Rhaegar married Lyanna without his leave/knowledge, then the question is, did Rhaegar have the right to marry whoever he liked as a man grown? Same goes for Lyanna. I am 99.9% sure that Rickard never gave his consent to Lyanna in regards to marrying Rhaegar but she was a woman grown by that time.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Don't confuse the legally binding religious ceremony (the bride or groom decides) with a political treaty between the heads of the family (you do what I say or I will disinherit you).

[aryagonnakill#2]

Its all about power, if Joff was Robb Tyrion and Cersei could not have forced him to marry anyone, just as Catlyn didn't force Robb to accept the marriage proposal from Frey. Joff was weak and so he did as told.

[Mithras]

Don't confuse the legally binding religious ceremony (the bride or groom decides) with a political treaty between the heads of the family (you do what I say or I will disinherit you).

I think the religious ceremony depends on the consent of both parties and if any of the parties are not adults, then their parents/regents should give their leave. This makes the things a little problematic in Sansa's case and fully problematic in Tyrion/Tysha case.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think the religious ceremony depends on the consent of both parties and if any of the parties are not adults, then their parents/regents should give their leave. This makes the things a little problematic in Sansa's case and fully problematic in Tyrion/Tysha case.

... which may cause a septon to refuse to marry them. Maybe. But a tree won't object. And as soon as it's done, it's done anyway.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Here the thing gets tricky. It is up to the Lord Stark to give Sansa’s hand but since Lord Stark is an enemy of the crown and an attainted traitor, Sansa is the king’s ward and he king can give her hand to whoever he likes. Legally speaking, does it matter had Sansa been a woman grown? I think yes. In that case, just like Alys, she would have the right to marry whoever she likes. In short, Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion is completely legal from Lannister POV.

When you are a ward of the crown, I don´t think that you can go marry whoever you like. The crown has the final say in matters, I think.

Speaking of Tyrion, was his marriage to Tysha lawful? I don’t think so because Lord Tywin never gave his consent and Tyrion was not a man grown at that time.

Interesting point. People often state that a marriage cannot be undone in the way that Tywin did with Tyrion and Tysha. But what if Tyrion never had the right to make the marriage in the first place? Could it be enough that Tywin hadn't given his consent?

A very interesting notion..

This also brings up another question. I too believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married in front of a heart tree and/or by a wandering septon.

If Aerys gave his consent to Rhaegar in marrying Lyanna, there is no problem for him. But if Rhaegar married Lyanna without his leave/knowledge, then the question is, did Rhaegar have the right to marry whoever he liked as a man grown? Same goes for Lyanna. I am 99.9% sure that Rickard never gave his consent to Lyanna in regards to marrying Rhaegar but she was a woman grown by that time.

Well, Rhaegar was plotting to overthrow Aerys, so in this case, it might have been what you say earlier in your OP, the winner is always declared to be on the rightful side. Rhaegar, as the new king, could have declared his marriage lawful for whoever still harbored doubts.

One issue:

Alys Karstark is not yet a woman grown by the time she gets married, yet, as the Lady of Karstark, she is allowed to make a match for herself. So there does seem to be some wiggle room somewhere.

How does this influence the fact that Joffrey, as 13 year old, and thus not legally a man grown, has to listen to his regent as to who to marry?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

“He swore to trade her for his brother,” she said numbly. “Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?”

“He’s the Kingslayer’s brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood.” Robb’s fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. “If I could I’d take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.”

(...)

However, the Stark POV does not recognize Joffrey as the rightful king. For them, this marriage is invalid. But it can only be declared invalid if they overthrow the Lannisters.

Wait what? From the very quote you provided, Robb considers Sansa's marriage binding and irreversible, the only way out is to kill Tyrion. He hates it, but acknowledges it nevertheless. And not because he acknowledged Joffrey's rights to make arrangements in her name, but, simply, because she did don the crimson cloak and say the words.

Marriage seems to be treated similarly to an execution: you might argue who has and who hasn't the right to order it, whether the convicted deserves it, authority, legality, precedents and yadda yadda yadda (that's what Sansa does with Joffrey and Jon with that karsehole), but once the dude's head falls off, it's universally considered a done deal. A marriage pact is just that: a deal, an agreement, and the normal way of doing things is first, to make such a deal beforehand, and second, to follow through. Disregarding this procedure usually makes a lot of people very unhappy, but doesn't in itself make a marriage void.

[joluoto2]

Legality is where people think it is. If enough people consider a marriage legal it's legal. If none considers it legal, then it's not.

[Mithras]

When you are a ward of the crown, I don´t think that you can go marry whoever you like. The crown has the final say in matters, I think.

Do you have a legal definition of wardship? I don’t have a clue how a ward is supposed or not supposed to act but I think that is important. Theon was declared a ward of Ned in fArya marriage. Not that it matters much practically but Roose is subtle in such details. And there is this famous ward of Rosby.

Interesting point. People often state that a marriage cannot be undone in the way that Tywin did with Tyrion and Tysha. But what if Tyrion never had the right to make the marriage in the first place? Could it be enough that Tywin hadn't given his consent?

A very interesting notion..

I think it is a closed case. Whatever Tyrion feels, his father had the authority over him and he never consented to his marriage to Tysha.

Well, Rhaegar was plotting to overthrow Aerys, so in this case, it might have been what you say earlier in your OP, the winner is always declared to be on the rightful side. Rhaegar, as the new king, could have declared his marriage lawful for whoever still harbored doubts.

That is a good explanation.

One issue:

Alys Karstark is not yet a woman grown by the time she gets married, yet, as the Lady of Karstark, she is allowed to make a match for herself. So there does seem to be some wiggle room somewhere.

How does this influence the fact that Joffrey, as 13 year old, and thus not legally a man grown, has to listen to his regent as to who to marry?

“Who brings this woman to be wed?” asked Melisandre.

“I do,” said Jon. “Now comes Alys of House Karstark, a woman grown and flowered, of noble blood and birth.”

Alys was a woman grown at her marriage. But I do agree that Jon apparently acted like the Stark of Winterfell, although he never intended it that way.

Wait what? From the very quote you provided, Robb considers Sansa's marriage binding and irreversible, the only way out is to kill Tyrion. He hates it, but acknowledges it nevertheless. And not because he acknowledged Joffrey's rights to make arrangements in her name, but, simply, because she did don the crimson cloak and say the words.

Marriage seems to be treated similarly to an execution: you might argue who has and who hasn't the right to order it, whether the convicted deserves it, authority, legality, precedents and yadda yadda yadda (that's what Sansa does with Joffrey and Jon with that karsehole), but once the dude's head falls off, it's universally considered a done deal. A marriage pact is just that: a deal, an agreement, and the normal way of doing things is first, to make such a deal beforehand, and second, to follow through. Disregarding this procedure usually makes a lot of people very unhappy, but doesn't in itself make a marriage void.

IMO Robb is 16 and does not speak with the absolute certainty of a king in this case; rather he talks like an enraged brother. I don’t think he considers the marriage irreversible, especially because of the proper ceremony.

[Mithras]

By the way, I am no expert of British history, but are there some monarchs who were declared illegitimate because the relationship between their parents was declared illegitimate? There was a little confusing story about John of Gaunt and his long-time mistress who gave birth to Beaufort surnamed children of John. Their children were born long before they were married but they were legitimized by both the pope and the king. However, some people claimed that they were illegitimate.

[RumHam]

And as soon as it's done, it's done anyway.

Generally yes, but there are situations where other factors can call the validity of the marriage into question. We already know that vows made at swordpoint are considered invalid.

[Ser Lepus]

The legal guardian of a minor has the right to forbide him or her to marry someone.

A father can probably disinherit a son or daughter who marries without his consent (not totally sure about this, since Westerosi inheritance laws are messy).

Technically speaking, nobody can force somebody else to marry against his or her will, not even a son or daughter.

In practice, a father or legal guardian usually arrange a marriage for their children or wards and can force them to marry with the threat of punishment. Older men like the Blackfish or Jamie can put more resistance, since they can tell their father or lord to shove off and go away.

[Mithras]

Generally yes, but there are situations where other factors can call the validity of the marriage into question. We already know that vows made at swordpoint are considered invalid.

Yeah. In Sansa's case, it can also be argued this way.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Who brings this woman to be wed? asked Melisandre.

I do, said Jon. Now comes Alys of House Karstark, a woman grown and flowered, of noble blood and birth.

Alys was a woman grown at her marriage. But I do agree that Jon apparently acted like the Stark of Winterfell, although he never intended it that way.

During her marriage, Alys was a woman grown in the sense that she had already flowered, but she was still 15 years old, and Jon states (after the ceremony, IIRC).

[Mithras]

During her marriage, Alys was a woman grown in the sense that she had already flowered, but she was still 15 years old, and Jon states (after the ceremony, IIRC).

“It is my own fault. My lord father told me I must charm your brother Robb, but I was only six and didn’t know how.”

Aye, but now you’re almost six-and-ten, and we must pray you will know how to charm your new husband. “My lady, how do things stand at Karhold with your food stores?”

It looks like she was very close to 16. With Harrion is missing, the situation is a little complicated in this case.

[Annara Snow]

During her marriage, Alys was a woman grown in the sense that she had already flowered, but she was still 15 years old, and Jon states (after the ceremony, IIRC).

Girls who have flowered are not considered women grown. I think that 16 is when boys and girls are considered grown in Westeros, but we don't know if the exact date is that important and fixated on as it is in today's legal systems where the date you turn 18 or 21 is of utmost importance to your right to vote or buy alcohol and cigarettes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Girls who have flowered are not considered women grown. I think that 16 is when boys and girls are considered grown in Westeros, but we don't know if the exact date is that important and fixated on as it is in today's legal systems where the date you turn 18 or 21 is of utmost importance to your right to vote or buy alcohol and cigarettes.

By law you are a man or woman grown when you reach the age of 16 in Westeros.

For girls, you are called a woman grown when you've flowered as well. That's speaking about womanhood, not about the law. There's a difference in there (I've done my research for this topic quite some time ago ;) )

Theon answered. “Arya of House Stark comes here to be wed. A woman grown and flowered,

trueborn and noble, she comes to beg the blessings of the gods. Who comes to claim her?”

fArya, during the marriage, would be pretending to be a 12 year old girl.

Clydas moved closer. “Poor child. How old are you?”

“Sixteen on my next nameday. And no child, but a woman grown and flowered.” She yawned,

covered her mouth with the cloak. One bare knee peeked through its folds. “You do not wear a chain.

Are you a maester?”

Alys Karstark here, showing us that girls can be considered a woman grown before their 16th nameday

It was time, though. A girl might spend her life at play, but she was a woman grown, a queen, a

wife, a mother to thousands. Her children had need of her. Drogon had bent before the whip, and so

must she. She had to don her crown again and return to her ebon bench and the arms of her noble

husband.

Dany here, at the end of Dance, would have passed her 16th nameday. She calls herself a woman grown

She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown

Bran speaking about Meera

Winterfell was the home of your childhood, Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You’re a woman grown, and you need to make your own home.”

LF speaking to Sansa, who is 13

Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother.

And here Meera has turned 16 and is still considered a woman grown

This is all about whether or not a girl has flowered or not. But Feast gives us the hint about whether a girl is a woman grown by law and not solely by the rights of womenhood

“The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough... when you came of age, I thought, but...”

“I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown.”

“I know."

23-7=16. Doran admits here that since the age of 16, Arianne had come of age. This is speaking about by law.

The other examples are about womanhood

Closest to Sansa’s own age were the cousins Elinor, Alla, and Megga, Tyrells from junior branches of the House. “Roses from lower on the bush,” quipped Elinor, who was witty and willowy. Megga was round and loud, Alla shy and pretty, but Elinor ruled the three by right of womanhood; she was a maiden flowered, whereas Megga and Alla were mere girls.

Elinor, Alla and Megga are all of Sansa's age (12, at that moment). Megga and Alla, however, are seens as girls, whereas Elinor no longer is, since she has flowered, and the other two haven't yet.

[Annara Snow]

^ And Bran thinks he's "almost a man grown" at 7.

I doubt that there's anyone in Westeros who would really think that a 12-year old is a "woman grown". But they will say she is to justify her getting married.

I also wouldn't put much stock in LF telling Sansa she's a woman grown while he's bullshitting (well, when isn't he, but this an obvious one).

Elinor, Alla and Megga are all of Sansa's age (12, at that moment). Megga and Alla, however, are seens as girls, whereas Elinor no longer is, since she has flowered, and the other two haven't yet.

... by 12-year old flowered Sansa. Another very reliable source on the matter.

But if we're speaking how people see adolescents:

- Viserys wonders if Drogo really likes his women "that young" (13)

- Ned thinks that 14-year old, pregnant Dany is a "child"

- Ned thinks that Barra's mother, who he judges to be about 15, is incredibly young and almost a child

- Tyrion thinks that 12-year old (about to turn 13), flowered Sansa is a "child"

- Theon thinks that 13-year old Jeyne Poole is a "child"

[Colonel Green]

IMO Robb is 16 and does not speak with the absolute certainty of a king in this case; rather he talks like an enraged brother. I don’t think he considers the marriage irreversible, especially because of the proper ceremony.

He specifically says the marriage is irreversible, and the only thing he can do is to kill Tyrion. Catelyn agrees with this, and nobody else in Robb's court says otherwise. If there was some violation of legal formalism there, somebody would have said as much. The author, likewise, has said that she can get it annulled for reason of non-consummation, but there's never been any indication that it wasn't "legal".

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm more interested in Asha's marriage. Euron had a seal marry in her place. Is that legal? Plus, if it is I wonder about Arya. Can someone else or something else marry in your place and it still be legal? Also, if it's not I wonder why Euron would bother. This was clearly to punish and neutralize her although he might want to kill her anyways.