Michael Brown's death and civil unrest in north St. Louis

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Well shit. I didn't catch the individual's name, but the county prosecutor is apparently outraged that the Ferguson police were removed from command and finds the actions of the Governor "unlawful." This show ain't over yet folks...

[CyanidePie]

State Police Officer Johnson deserves a fucking standing ovation, or an all-expenses paid vacation after all of this is done, something.

Look what happens when you come in wearing a standard police uniform and are actually willing to listen to and engage the citizens, instead of rolling in on tanks with mounted machine guns, sniper nests, and throwing fucking tear gas all over the place. It's almost like people just want to be heard, who would have thunk it?

[MeKeepsDragons]

Well shit. I didn't catch the individual's name, but the county prosecutor is apparently outraged that the Ferguson police were removed from command and finds the actions of the Governor "unlawful." This show ain't over yet folks...

It is likely the state can easily take over based on keeping the peace. The local cops showing up with armor and tanks was kinda stupid.

[MeKeepsDragons]

State Police Officer Johnson deserves a fucking standing ovation, or an all-expenses paid vacation after all of this is done, something.

Look what happens when you come in wearing a standard police uniform and are actually willing to listen to and engage the citizens, instead of rolling in on tanks with mounted machine guns, sniper nests, and throwing fucking tear gas all over the place. It's almost like people just want to be heard, who would have thunk it?

Look what happens when cops shoot am unarmed person for the thousandth time...just sayin

[Shryke]

The Onion is amazing as always:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tips-for-being-an-unarmed-black-teen,36697/

With riots raging in Ferguson, Missouri following the shooting death by police of an unarmed African-American youth, the nation has turned its eyes toward police brutality, social injustice, and the continuing crisis of race relations throughout the U.S. Here are The Onion’s tips for being an unarmed black teen in America:

• Shy away from dangerous, heavily policed areas.
  
• Avoid swaggering or any other confident behavior that suggests you are not completely subjugated.
  
• Be sure not to pick up any object that could be perceived by a police officer as a firearm, such as a cell phone, a food item, or nothing.
  
• Explain in clear and logical terms that you do not enjoy being shot, and would prefer that it not happen.
  
• Don’t let society stereotype you as a petty criminal. Remember that you can be seen as so much more, from an armed robbery suspect, to a rape suspect, to a murder suspect.
  
• Try to see it from a police officer’s point of view: You may be unarmed, but you’re also black.
  
• Avoid wearing clothing associated with the gang lifestyle, such as shirts and pants.
  
• Revel in the fact that by simply existing, you exert a threatening presence over the nation’s police force.
  
• Be as polite and straightforward as possible when police officers are kicking the shit out of you.
  

[polishgenius]

Look what happens when cops shoot am unarmed person for the thousandth time...just sayin

I'm not sure what your point is here.

It's great that someone with actual knowledge of both the people in the area and crowd control was put in charge of this.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

The Onion is amazing as always:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tips-for-being-an-unarmed-black-teen,36697/

Cognitive dissonance= :lmao: :crying:

[James Arryn]

We need someone in DC who will

See, this might be why people wonder why you aren't voting Republican. Expressing approval of the leading Republican candidate ATM would confuse that issue. No?

[MeKeepsDragons]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

It's great that someone with actual knowledge of both the people in the area and crowd control was put in charge of this.

I agree but not sure what took so long. I lived in St Louis and know it is one of the most racist places you can find so far north. Huge income disparities and lots of innocent folk charged ( I am a lawyer).

I guess I am unwilling to reward anyone in those departments after one nights work after decades of the opposite.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Triskele,

And on that note, and to totally get political, Rand Paul has come out and said this whole thing is BS.

Yes, people will question his motives.

Yes, his family has ties to neo-confederates.

Legit questions for sure, but will any other Republicans say this is wrong? We shall see.

Say that calling this event is BS is wrong, say that questioning his motives is wrong, or say that noting his family has ties to Neo-Confederates is wrong?

Which of the the three do you mean, or do you mean all three?

[Sturn]

Sorry for the Wall of Text. Catching up.

These comments about looters are pretty gross. There is very, very little of it going on and of the approximately seven people known to be involved, five are not from the area.

Seven people?! Here is one video of one store. That's lots more then seven right there. Simply Google "Ferguson Looting Videos" and start counting. Are you counting only those arrested? If so googling also gives a number far above 7. Here's a different store. Are they all just the same looters from the first video? 7 total looters?

The actual funding amounts are not publicly disclosed, however, St. Louis County law enforcement has received the following "tactical" items for free from the Pentagon's 1033 program:

That's for one small city.

St. Louis COUNTY, not Ferguson. As pointed out that includes they large city of St. Louis several cities for a total of around 1 million pop. So that's actually kind of low. Note that the large cities with big budgets aren't typically the ones using LESO for military surplus. It's probably departments that number only in hundreds or less that don't have the funds for such that go to the military source.

Just take a look at the fucking pictures coming out of Ferguson. Their entire 2014 budget was $5.2 million, you really think they afforded all those toys themselves? The St. Louis County PD budget was $99 million, but they have to cover the whole county.

Again, most of those pictures are NOT of the Ferguson PD, but surrounding agencies from the greater St. Louis County (perhaps even the city of St. Louis?) that responded to assist.

The problem is that having the equipment encourages it's use.

You give the police hammers and everything starts looking alot nailier.

Shryke I can agree with this. This is why command and control of tactical units is so important. From the team leader to swat commander to chief of police, they need to understand which hammer is justified.

However, they had machine guns and rifles trained on unarmed protesters.

We just discussed an article that screwed this up, perhaps purposely, to incite. I haven't seen a single machinegun in any of those pictures from Ferguson. I have seen submachineguns. Quite different weapon.

No one can say for sure what the correct police response should have been. I just feel like traditional riot police, armed with baton and shield, pepper spray and a few tear gas canisters with amply handcuffs would have been better. They could have SWAT on notice and close by, but not actively deployed.

I agree this would have been much more sensible. Do we know that this wasn't the original plan that somehow went haywire? I'm guessing Ferguson, a small department, asked for help. A large force from several agencies in the area responded with their special units (riot and swat). An overall commander needed to organize this. Perhaps this didn't happen leading to what we saw.

Missouri, you screwed the pooch pretty bad.

And all police are racists shooting unarmed black men right? Ferguson can be accused of "screwing the pooch", and depending on what you believe perhaps other agencies from St. Louis county. You just threw the entire state in with that just like many are throwing every cop across the nation under the bus for what one or at most a small number of agencies did.

In this country:

You can form militias and aim fully automatic weapons at federal agents who show up to throw you off of land you don't own, and as long as you're white, they'll just turn around and go home.

If you're black, standing on your own property, and peacefully telling the cops dressed like futuristic cyborg soldiers to go fuck themselves, you get hit with tear gas, rubber bullets, thrown to the ground, and put in handcuffs.

Look at the progress we've made since the Civil Rights Movement.

Agree on the imbalance. But I also believe those predominantly white idiots in the Nevada Bundy standoff should have gone to jail also.

State Police Officer Johnson deserves a fucking standing ovation, or an all-expenses paid vacation after all of this is done, something.

Race I assume was a factor in his selection as a figure head, not just oratory ability. To be fair to the police chief of Ferguson, if he had been black it could have helped even if his words weren't helping. When I saw this trooper speak, I thought is he thinking, "I'm just a fucking Captain, what did I deserve to do this?!"

I just saw the following video make national news. WARNING to Liberals with high blood pressure, you might not want to click on this link. This Gentry guy is going to be loved by some as having the courage to say such, hated by others who are going to call him an uncle tom like happened to Bill Cosby.

[Inigima]

Maybe my numbers on looters are out of date. They were the numbers I saw earlier.

Here's the thing, though: it doesn't matter. Looting is a distraction from the original issue, which is that a cop shot an unarmed black kid because he thought he could.

First, looting is not a justification for putting a civilian down like a dog. People trot out looting like it somehow makes homicide okay. "Sure, we shot a kid, but these unrelated people stole some stuff after. Totally cool!" Nor is it justification for horrifyingly disproportionate response to protests, or for arresting journalists.

Second, note that the looting was after Michael Brown was shot. Even if it were adequate justification, which no one sane could possibly conclude, a later crime cannot possibly retroactively justify an earlier one.

Looting is a distraction, and it's being exploited to suggest that the civilians suffering serious battery by police somehow "had it coming," by people who want to render black people subhuman in the popular imagination, so that anything the police do can be justified ex post facto. It's disgusting and the people doing it should be deeply ashamed. But they won't be.

[Sturn]

Second, note that the looting was after Michael Brown was shot. Even if it were adequate justification, which no one sane could possibly conclude, a later crime cannot possibly retroactively justify an earlier one.

I don't think anyone (at least here) is arguing that. It's another thing that shouldn't have occurred. It shouldn't be spinned to say it was somehow justification for the first thing that was wrong.

I completely agree the looting is a distraction. If you want change to come from this horrible incident, the looters grabbing some candy and shoes just did you a huge disservice. The looters shouldn't be a reverse justification, but what they are doing is also wrong and thus shouldn't be ignored or downplayed either. There are even people comparing the looters to the Boston Tea Party Sorry but I don't think the gal I saw in a video smiling and yelling, "Thank you Harry! (Brown)" while carrying her looted booty away should be compared to the Boston revolutionaries.

[Fez]

Well shit. I didn't catch the individual's name, but the county prosecutor is apparently outraged that the Ferguson police were removed from command and finds the actions of the Governor "unlawful." This show ain't over yet folks...

I saw that too. I don't think he has much of a leg to stand on though. His main complaint was about the county PD being pulled out, but as I noted yesterday, the county PD is headed up by appointees ultimately responsible to the Governor. Meanwhile, the St. Louis city PD don't even have jurisdiction in Ferguson, and it was their own police chief who pulled them out. Maybe he was pressured into doing it, but local authorities are pressured by state ones all the time through legal methods.

Possibly he would have a case about the Ferguson PD being replaced/overseen (I'm still not sure which it is) by the highway patrol (although the argument about public safety is compelling), but he didn't even mention them and just talked about the county PD. I think he just has a close relationship with them and wanted to be seen in continued solidarity.

More concerning to me is that unless DOJ compiles enough evidence to determine that Michael Brown's shooting was a hate crime, it will up to this guy to decide whether to bring charges against the offending officer; and he's showing an awful lot of bias right now.

[Inigima]

I don't think anyone (at least here) is arguing that. It's another thing that shouldn't have occurred. It shouldn't be spinned to say it was somehow justification for the first thing that was wrong.

I completely agree the looting is a distraction. If you want change to come from this horrible incident, the looters grabbing some candy and shoes just did you a huge disservice. The looters shouldn't be a reverse justification, but what they are doing is also wrong and thus shouldn't be ignored or downplayed either. There are even people comparing the looters to the Boston Tea Party Sorry but I don't think the gal I saw in a video smiling and yelling, "Thank you Harry! (Brown)" while carrying her looted booty away should be compared to the Boston revolutionaries.

Two points:

1. Mostly I am not thinking of people here. It's all over people like Sean Hannity, though, and it's all over the discourse generally.

2. When "But looters!" is the response to something like this, it's hard not to read it as justification... and I think most of them mean it that way.

Is looting bad? Sure. But it's not even remotely close to proportionally bad relative to the shooting, and it makes me uncomfortable to see them brought up in the same conversation because of the implication.

[The Notorious]

Nobody is justifying the murder. However, what some have pointed out is that the heavy presence of law enforcement is due to the occurring of looting and vandalism spinning from the protest ..... Most likely at the urgent behest of local business owners and people living in the area.

[Kelli Fury]

Look, no matter what, it would take a lot more looting than a small percentage of these demonstrators to justify tear gas and rubber bullets and beatings. The majority are people out there not breaking any laws at all, and they're being harmed and threatened and prevented from exercising their right to protest.

[The Notorious]

Nobody right to protest was prevented. The heavy presence of law enforcement only arrived after the protest turned violence and looting began. Protest is still allowed and ongoing as we speak, but it seems that the "militization" in the police response has actually worked to prevent further vandalism and looting.

[Rhom]

With the information coming out today that the officer was reportedly in a struggle with the kid (who is 6'5"} over his handgun, or that the kid was a suspect in a robbery with assault earlier that day, does that change anyone's perception of what happened?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Nobody right to protest was prevented. The heavy presence of law enforcement only arrived after the protest turned violence and looting began. Protest is still allowed and ongoing as we speak, but it seems that the "militization" in the police response has actually worked to prevent further vandalism and looting.

Especially arresting the reporters. That was key.