Dagger and Coin II: Spoilers through The Spider's War

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The whole ending just seemed a little too neat and tidy, that's what bothered me if we're getting into spoilers now. There didn't seem any weight to most of it; no real price. I mean, yes, Clara has to deal with losing Victarian but that's barely touched on all things considered- she allowed her son to walk to his death ffs, you'd expect her to be shattered but she's more concerned with Coe. Cithrin suffers no consequences in the end of coming back to Geder, Kit's not dead (that was the most annoying to me), but all of the other spider-priests seem to be, they make the decision about Inys but that's kind of skimmed over too... it's  all just kinda tidy.

I guess some of that will be dealt with in a potential sequel series but basically for everything that happened, I didn't feel the cost enough in the text. In a broad sense yeah it's there but we don't feel it enough.

On Clara I felt it was pretty clear that she'd already mourned Vicarian and to her it wasn't him that she let die... He's already dead.

Overall I loved it. The plot didn't necessarily twist the way I was expecting, but the way everything played out felt incredibly real and true to the characters for me. I didn't think it was all too neat, if anything it was less neat than I was expecting. We had the resolution of this war, of this crisis, but everything keeps going on and there will be new conflicts, new crises. The characters that have learnt to lean on each other are fragmented and Cithrin in particular has to start over as far as personal relationships are concerned. Yes she'll be OK, and she will live, but there's no finality - the world goes on as it did before, radically changed but fundamentally the same.

And I did not expect the ending with Inys at large. Yes Dan could come back to that, but it also wouldn't surprise me if that's simply playing into the same thematic note of there not being a 'The End', just an end.

It's not the end of Long Price, but it's still great.

[matt b]

Thinking on it, I think Dan has been preparing us for this ending the entire series. What does whoever is barking for the acting troupe say before every performance as they gather the crowd? "...and I warn you, not all that are good end well. Not all that are evil are punished. Come close, my friends, and know that in our tale as in the world anything maybe happen..."

But as Marcus says in Chapter 1 of The Dragon's Path, "In the end, and despite the actor’s warnings, the good triumphed, the evil were vanquished, and the players took their bows." And isn't that pretty much how things play out?

[Xray the Enforcer]

12 hours ago, karaddin said:

On Clara I felt it was pretty clear that she'd already mourned Vicarian and to her it wasn't him that she let die... He's already dead.

Overall I loved it. The plot didn't necessarily twist the way I was expecting, but the way everything played out felt incredibly real and true to the characters for me. I didn't think it was all too neat, if anything it was less neat than I was expecting. We had the resolution of this war, of this crisis, but everything keeps going on and there will be new conflicts, new crises. The characters that have learnt to lean on each other are fragmented and Cithrin in particular has to start over as far as personal relationships are concerned. Yes she'll be OK, and she will live, but there's no finality - the world goes on as it did before, radically changed but fundamentally the same.

And I did not expect the ending with Inys at large. Yes Dan could come back to that, but it also wouldn't surprise me if that's simply playing into the same thematic note of there not being a 'The End', just an end.

It's not the end of Long Price, but it's still great.

Was just about to post that about Clara. She mourned the loss of Vicarian two books ago. Further, she was still quite upset by it, but not devastated. Which is honestly what I'd expect from her. 

I liked the final book. I think it had some great moments, and I actually like that Daniel didn't pull out what is now a total cliche -- that a bunch of people have to die or sacrifice! everything! in order for the end to feel important. That said, I was very surprised that Marcus survived until the end -- I thought for sure he'd be toast. I'm super glad that Clara survived -- I loved her character so much.

One question on the text: In the chapter where Vicarian and Kurrik are just about to head off to Camnipol, Kurrik sneaks away and has a discussion with Shandor. During that exchange, Shandor asks "So we'll still kill the other one?" and "but...the other one...he's in error, yeah?" I'm not quite sure who the other one is supposed to be. Anyone care to enlighten this poor soul who has yet to see the Goddess's truth?

[Rorshach]

I ended up on the "slightly disappointed"-scale. 

For me, a lot of it hinged on the classic protagonists live, antagonists die thing. Towards the end, our heroes - even minor ones like Jorey - are in trouble, and they come out of it with a cut on Marcus' arm (plus psychological scars), while all our antagonists - Geder and the priests - are gone.

Inys is the only one to break that dynamic, but still ... no, for me, the ending could have been better. 

[Caligula_K4]

I agree with what seems to be the general consensus. I enjoyed the book. It was a quick read, there were a few powerful moments, and a couple of clever twists. I liked the revival of the farmer's council as a call back to book one, and there were two moments that succeeded because of Abraham's skill with characterization over the course of the series: the plan to turn Geder against the spider priests and the reason Marcus could prevail against Basahrip. Very clever. And Clara and Geder are two fantastic characters; it's always a pleasure just to read anything from their POVs.

That said, I agree with all those who say that it was too neat, too easy. The format of the book was: 1. Main characters make plan. 2. Characters discuss war, implications of plan, peace, spiders in great detail. 3. Plan succeeds without any real problems. 4. Repeat. There was a bit of tension towards the end when Basahrip (I know I'm mispelling that) finds out about the plan, but even that was dealt with fairly quickly. There was never really any tension; once Geder was on their side, there wasn't really much conflict either. And for all that the spider priests have been built up, for all that their powers are terrifying, and for all that Abraham seemed to be establishing that schisms were growing, none of it really came to much. As I said above, I liked how the main characters manipulated Geder, but I couldn't quite suspend my disbelief that that Cithrin and co. could erase the spider priests' influence over Aster and others so quickly. The heroes won easily and without any real price; in fact, Geder dying "heroically" is kind of the easy way out for dealing with that character. A lot more could have been done with the climax, I think, to make it feel less perfunctory.

I was also pretty disappointed that the Inys plotline was left entirely unresolved. I didn't need for him to die or for everything to be wrapped up with a bow, but some closure there would have been nice. Is anyone but Marcus and Yardem at all concerned that there's a now hostile dragon on the loose? How are they going to co-exist with Inys? What exactly is he planning? I can't say that I enjoy coming to the end of a fairly long fantasy series, only to have the author pull the rug and say "actually, I want to write more books about this! Wait for the sequel series."

Again, I enjoyed the book and the series overall. I do wonder if Abraham lost steam halfway through (perhaps not unexpected, given how many projects he has going on at once) because the series really hit its peak in Books 2 and 3 for me. Which feels strange, because the Long Price Quartet only got better as it went on, with its final book being the best by far (IMO). Even so, The Dagger and the Coin is a good fantasy series that plays around with some very cool ideas, interesting themes and well developed characters. I'd be happy to recommend it to any epic fantasy fan.

[beniowa]

Like a few others, I thought it was good, though not great.  Ending felt a little too tidy, and the way things were unresolved with Inys felt like it was deliberately left open for a sequel.  Still pretty good and I'm already anticipating Daniel's next project. 

 

4 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

One question on the text: In the chapter where Vicarian and Kurrik are just about to head off to Camnipol, Kurrik sneaks away and has a discussion with Shandor. During that exchange, Shandor asks "So we'll still kill the other one?" and "but...the other one...he's in error, yeah?" I'm not quite sure who the other one is supposed to be. Anyone care to enlighten this poor soul who has yet to see the Goddess's truth?

I assumed it was Vicarian because of the way he and Kurrik seemed to disagreeing on things.  I'm probably wrong though. 

[Xray the Enforcer]

That was also my first guess -- basically to show how irrational the priests could get. But then I wondered if I was being duped.

[karaddin]

X - Pretty sure it was Vic there. Regardless of what Basra says, if he doesn't kill Vic they will.

Those that feel it was too neat and were disappointed, can I ask how you felt about the attempt on Inys? Because I think that might be the key difference in how I read the book, I was REALLY conflicted on it. From an outcome point of view it was absolutely the right call to take him out if they could, but backstabbing an ally while they are in the middle of helping you is super dubious to me and it really greyed them all up as far as I was concerned. And then they failed anyway.

In hindsight that scene in Carse where Inys snacked on priest was indeed the pivot of the series, without that intervention everything spins out of control into chaos. The book itself kinda acknowledged this though so it feels less insightful now lol.

[Caligula_K4]

39 minutes ago, karaddin said:

X - Pretty sure it was Vic there. Regardless of what Basra says, if he doesn't kill Vic they will.

Those that feel it was too neat and were disappointed, can I ask how you felt about the attempt on Inys? Because I think that might be the key difference in how I read the book, I was REALLY conflicted on it. From an outcome point of view it was absolutely the right call to take him out if they could, but backstabbing an ally while they are in the middle of helping you is super dubious to me and it really greyed them all up as far as I was concerned. And then they failed anyway.

In hindsight that scene in Carse where Inys snacked on priest was indeed the pivot of the series, without that intervention everything spins out of control into chaos. The book itself kinda acknowledged this though so it feels less insightful now lol.

This is part of the reason I was disappointed that Inys' plotline was left hanging. It was a very grey decision, particularly after two books of getting to know Inys. And it was the only plan of the protagonists in the book that failed. There was a lot of potential here for a very interesting denouement or extended climax involving Inys... But then the book ends. And nobody but Yardem and Marcus seem to care that they may have just created a huge problem for the entire world: an angry dragon that now trusts nobody.

In other words, the one part of the story that wasn't too neat is left for a sequel series.

[karaddin]

52 minutes ago, Caligula_K4 said:

This is part of the reason I was disappointed that Inys' plotline was left hanging. It was a very grey decision, particularly after two books of getting to know Inys. And it was the only plan of the protagonists in the book that failed. There was a lot of potential here for a very interesting denouement or extended climax involving Inys... But then the book ends. And nobody but Yardem and Marcus seem to care that they may have just created a huge problem for the entire world: an angry dragon that now trusts nobody.

In other words, the one part of the story that wasn't too neat is left for a sequel series.

I'm just not convinced it actually is meant for a sequel series rather than intentionally left hanging as a "conflict goes on, life goes on" thematic plot point.  That's probably due to following Dan on facebook and twitter though and having seen no indication he intends to return to this world, as he has seemed uncertain about what would be his next project other than continued Expanse work.

X - Forgot to say before, I'm also super surprised Marcus lived although he's clearly not in good shape at this point.  I'm no longer convinced the sword was a death sentence though, potentially he will slowly recover from its effects now he's not carrying it.  Kit took me in hook, line and sinker and I was crying big time (while trying not to show it because Brook hasn't read it yet and was right next to me lol).

[Xray the Enforcer]

The whole tone of the book was definitely "how far will you go to screw over your frenemy." The scenes with Geder were also totally uncomfortable, because Geder's need to be liked is just so palpable, and they deliver that solely to get him to do their bidding. Somebody would have had to kill the dude if he hadn't chosen to self-immolate. 

[Darzin]

I  wish that Geder had lived, I feel like him dying was part of what made the ending seem so tidy it was just so convenient. Him living and everyone having to deal with the messy implications of that would have been better I think.

Quote

I'm no longer convinced the sword was a death sentence though, potentially he will slowly recover from its effects now he's not carrying it.

I've always had a pet theory that the swords are only a death sentence for the priests because carrying them slowly kills the the spiders in their blood and it has ill effects. Whereas a normal person will recover, I expected this to be used as an out to keep Marcus alive. However, in the books it doesn't seem to be explained why he's still alive so I'm going to stick with it. 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I don't think he wants to write the sequel series. He'd have to abandon everything that made the series feel fresh and innovative and write a story about an evil overlord who wants to enslave everybody.

[Consigliere]

I'm was fairly satisfied with the book - it was good but not great. I felt that the book took a while to get going and the first third to half was a little boring. But once the pieces were in place and our povs arrived in Camnipol was where the book picked up and it was an interesting read from that point on. I can understand why some feel that it was all too neat but, for me, the resolution of our pov's arcs was completely consistent with their characterisation. I'll take that over "shocking-plot-twist-that-makes-no-sense" everyday of the week. I was a little disappointed that Kit's death turned out to be a ruse but in hindsight him making the big speech and ultimate sacrifice does come across as "too good to be true".

On prophecy: It seems like the prophecy the cunning man gave to Clara was actually meant for Geder since he was the one who was asked a question that he could not answer. Or did I miss something?

Btw, did anyone else's copy have a few typos in it? Mine did and there was a Clara chapter where Lady Skestinin was referred to as Lady Kalliam a couple of times. Plus, in the epilogue, Kit mixed up the characteristics of the Haunadam and Raushadam but I'm willing to overlook that as unreliable narrator.

[matt b]

2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Btw, did anyone else's copy have a few typos in it?

Yeah, but I noticed as I was rereading the series that every other book did as well. Mostly just small misspellings (Syramis instead of Syramys). Occasionally something slightly more egregious. 

[Rorshach]

16 hours ago, karaddin said:

Those that feel it was too neat and were disappointed, can I ask how you felt about the attempt on Inys? Because I think that might be the key difference in how I read the book, I was REALLY conflicted on it. From an outcome point of view it was absolutely the right call to take him out if they could, but backstabbing an ally while they are in the middle of helping you is super dubious to me and it really greyed them all up as far as I was concerned. And then they failed anyway.

To me, the backstabbing made sense, and I'm not sure it really greyed them up for me.

Ever since Inys was introduced, there was an underlying message that he does regard men as inferior slaves - well, of course he does. That's how he created them (or his brothers did anyway). For the protagonists, he makes an unlikely ally. He's not someone you would want on your side, but you haven't got a better alternative. Added to that, he represents some sort of solution to the most pressing issue. But he's always more the enemy of the enemy.

For most of his presence, though, he did feel like an antagonist. Someone who would oppose the long-term goal of peace, prosperity and independence. And thus someone you needed to remove at some point. But, someone difficult to remove - you needed surprise at your side. 

Honestly, playing on Geder's feelings was more a grey area for me. 

[Altherion]

19 hours ago, karaddin said:

Those that feel it was too neat and were disappointed, can I ask how you felt about the attempt on Inys? Because I think that might be the key difference in how I read the book, I was REALLY conflicted on it. From an outcome point of view it was absolutely the right call to take him out if they could, but backstabbing an ally while they are in the middle of helping you is super dubious to me and it really greyed them all up as far as I was concerned. And then they failed anyway.

The decision seems in keeping with the characters, but I really didn't like it when they did that. I don't feel conflicted on it, it was just an evil thing to do. Inys had done nothing but help them so far and he was a repository of long-lost knowledge. To kill him based on what he might do later is wrong.

[Rhom]

Less than 100 pages in, so I have not read any other comments here; but from Cithrin's discussion with Kit; I really like Abraham talking directly to us.

Quote

Yes.  Love, I believe, is a small thing that feels large.  I find the feelings might overwhelm, but the action is between a handful of people.  War, by comparison, seems to me so large and happens so differently to so many people that capturing it in a tale leaves me with the sense that I've simplified it so much that it no longer resembles the thing it depicts.  The best I've managed is a story about people while a war goes on around them, but I think that isn't the same.

I think he sums up both TLPQ and D&C very well there.  TLPQ was a great love story between two friends and the emotions around them set against a backdrop of war, but features only one real battle in the entire series.  D&C is very clearly a story about war, even the idea that the concept of war can be defeated; but in the end it's the story of Marcus, Geder, and Cithrin "while a war goes on around them."

Not really breaking the fourth wall, but an interesting commentary nonetheless.

Back to the book!

[DanielAbraham]

On March 12, 2016 at 8:38 AM, matt b said:

Thinking on it, I think Dan has been preparing us for this ending the entire series. What does whoever is barking for the acting troupe say before every performance as they gather the crowd? "...and I warn you, not all that are good end well. Not all that are evil are punished. Come close, my friends, and know that in our tale as in the world anything maybe happen..."

But as Marcus says in Chapter 1 of The Dragon's Path, "In the end, and despite the actor’s warnings, the good triumphed, the evil were vanquished, and the players took their bows." And isn't that pretty much how things play out?

Upvote.

[peterbound]

13 hours ago, DanielAbraham said:

Upvote.

Ha, well, I guess that settles that.