Things in this series that still confuse you?

[Liaraeyne]

Ah ok. I misremembered :)

[Janicia]

Varys tells Aerys that Rhaegar would be using the tourney at Harrenhal as a cover to meet with lords to plot against him. Presumably, if Rhaegar truly was conspiring against his father, it would seem to be because of his father's madness. Rhaegar is widely considered a nearly ideal heir and future King, except for those few knowing of his fixation on prophesy maybe. Aerys and Rhaeger die. So, Varys works against Rhaeger while alive and later spends the next 17 years conspiring to put his heir on the throne. What is known about what Varys had against Rhaegar?

I dunno if it is really supported in the text, but I think of the sack of Kings Landing as a defining moment for Varys. Maybe before that he was simply ambitious and power-hungry. But then his insane king ignores his advice, opens the gates, the city is sacked, tons of people die horrifically including children he knows, and he stands a good chance of being executed. And Varys thinks "never again".

Varys sets up a long-term plan to get a "good king" on the throne and becomes more careful about what information he gives to who. I think Varys also relished Tywin and Pycelle's deaths whom he had hated for their roles in the sack.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

Can't really help with distinguishing them (I don't either, really) but as for their loyalty they all belong to Littlefinger - we see their father helping him with Sansa's escape from KL and I think he even mentions planting them on Cersei. Through I believe there is some indication of the one that sleeps with Cersei starting to get ideas into his head and starting to be a bit unruly (good old-fashioned inquisition should help with that).

I thought they were part of the group of sellswords Bronn found for Tyrion? And then maybe changed their loyalty to Cersei. So did only one of them ever sleep with Cersei? Thought maybe she slept with one to get him to kill the High Septon and another one to lie about Marg?

[Janicia]

I don't understand why the food shortages started so early in the story. In aGOT, these people have had 10 years of summer and are expecting several years of winter to come soon. So shouldn't everybody that isn't destitute have 2-3 years supply of food squirreled away? But food shortages become widespread within a year.

The Riverlands was pillaged and burned, so I can understand them not having food. And I know the story is written that with all the men away at war, they weren't able to harvest the crops properly. But why does it all come down to one autumn harvest is supposed to supply everybody with food for several years of winter; so maybe I just don't understand how Westerosi plants work? And with transport so iffy, especially in winter, you'd think Kings Landing would have massive granaries full of food; why does the city suffer shortages so soon?

And if the Night's Watch is low on food already, that just seems like mismanagement on Mormont's part.

[PrettyPig]

Thanos Targaryen, on 01 Oct 2014 - 3:45 PM, said:

Varys is allegedly entirely invested in the return of the Targaryens and the destruction of the Lannister/Baratheon dynasty. Yet it's theorized that Varys in disguise was the highborn lord that paid Tobho Mott the full fee plus bonus for Gendry's apprenticeship as a smith. I accept that despite some of his actions that Varys is considerably more moral than most of the other characters in ASOIAF. But why would he have any interest at all in seeing that one of Robert's bastards learned a trade? Not that any of Robert's bastards were a threat at all to the throne, even if Cersei hadn't tried to kill all the ones she could catch. But really. Why would, or even should, Varys care about any of them, either for their basic survival or for something as mundane as them having a job?

Was the disguised highborn that paid the fee to Mott even Varys at all? Or was it all just a loose plot string that GRRM has either decided isn't important enough to follow any more or might have even forgotten about?

All the other bastards of Robert have a living parent, or a safe place to grow up. Gendry´s mother died, and thus, he became a homeless orphan. Placing him in Mott´s establishment would ensure Gendry´s survival, that he had a place to live, food to eat, and, most importantly, that he could be found whenever it was necessary.

It wasn't about Gendry learning a trade. It was about being certain that Gendry is safe, at a location where he can possibly be for years to come, and where he can be found by Varys whenever Varys starts to need him.

Not to mention that Gendry is apprenticed to Tobho Mott in particular, who as a Qohori would be one of the remaning few to know the magic that goes into forging Valyrian steel. I imagine that if you have designs on making/remaking an ancestral sword in secret, having someone that knows how to do it and that is deeply in your debt on your payroll is probably a solid idea.

[Phosphoric]

Thanks everyone who answered my question on Lyanna. I like the poison idea, but Ned telling Robert she died of injuries/fever sounds more likely.

[Maid So Fair]

I thought they were part of the group of sellswords Bronn found for Tyrion? And then maybe changed their loyalty to Cersei. So did only one of them ever sleep with Cersei? Thought maybe she slept with one to get him to kill the High Septon and another one to lie about Marg?

You remember the first part correctly - recruited by Bronn for Tyrion and then seemingly changing their loyalty to Cersei (while still staying on Tyrion's payroll). However, we get this from Littlefinger, when explaining Cersei being a piece to Sansa (first chapter on the Fingers):

“But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King’s Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed.”

“So one of the Kettleblacks put the poison in Joff’s cup?” Ser Osmund had been near the king all night, she remembered.

“Did I say that?” Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. “The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him.”

It seems I have them all jumbled up as well, though, since it's Osmund the Kingsguard who is acting up, not Osney after sleeping with Cersei (though I don't think that would have helped in his case either).

[Janicia]

We know Robert sent gifts to Edric Storm -- so Robert liked to take care of the bastards he knew about. Whether Robert knew about Gendry is unclear -- although if Varys knew he might want to see the bastard looked after so the secret stayed contained. Who knows the extent of Varys' schemes and motives -- but keeping the bastard (proof of the twincest) close at hand, perhaps for a reveal at an opportune moment, might be worth considering.

I was under the impression that Varys sent the gifts to Edric Storm on Robert's behalf - that Robert didn't actually care enough to bother with it. Robert did have affection for Mya Stone, but didn't he forget about her once Cersei forbade him from bringing her to court?

Basically, I think Robert would be affectionate with his bastards if he saw them, but wouldn't put any effort into them. Varys' involvement with Gendry could have stemmed from a Robert directive along the lines of "discretely find my bastards reasonable employment so I don't have to feel guilty about my life choices, oh and send appropriate gifts to Edric Storm." Varys might never have had much of plan for Gendry.

When Gendry was identified by Jon Arryn, Stannis, and Ned as proof that Robert hadn't fathered Cersei's kids, Varys tried to have him sent to the Wall in case he was useful later. But Varys' interest in Gendry before that could have been just one of his many semi-official responsibilities.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was under the impression that Varys sent the gifts to Edric Storm on Robert's behalf - that Robert didn't actually care enough to bother with it. Robert did have affection for Mya Stone, but didn't he forget about her once Cersei forbade him from bringing her to court?

Basically, I think Robert would be affectionate with his bastards if he saw them, but wouldn't put any effort into them. Varys' involvement with Gendry could have stemmed from a Robert directive along the lines of "discretely find my bastards reasonable employment so I don't have to feel guilty about my life choices, oh and send appropriate gifts to Edric Storm." Varys might never have had much of plan for Gendry.

When Gendry was identified by Jon Arryn, Stannis, and Ned as proof that Robert hadn't fathered Cersei's kids, Varys tried to have him sent to the Wall in case he was useful later. But Varys' interest in Gendry before that could have been just one of his many semi-official responsibilities.

Gendry wasn't send away because he was discovered by Jon Arryn, Stannis and Ned. He was send away because his life was in danger, as Cersei had ordered the deaths of all of Robert's bastards (that she knew off) that were in her range. Those in KL and at CR/Lannisport were thus in special danger. Barra met such a fate, though Varys managed to avoid having Gendry meet the same one.

That's also why the gold cloaks show up later, looking for him.

[yolkboy]

I was under the impression that Varys sent the gifts to Edric Storm on Robert's behalf - that Robert didn't actually care enough to bother with it. Robert did have affection for Mya Stone, but didn't he forget about her once Cersei forbade him from bringing her to court?

It's down to interpretation I guess...

“He came to see me almost every year, and sometimes we trained together. On my last name day he sent me a warhammer just like his, only smaller.

(It's clear Varys was pulling strings, but in the case of Edric, Robert might have more interest).

[Janicia]

Gendry wasn't send away because he was discovered by Jon Arryn, Stannis and Ned. He was send away because his life was in danger, as Cersei had ordered the deaths of all of Robert's bastards (that she knew off) that were in her range. Those in KL and at CR/Lannisport were thus in special danger. Barra met such a fate, though Varys managed to avoid having Gendry meet the same one.

That's also why the gold cloaks show up later, looking for him.

Sorry, I was really unclear there. What I was trying to say was that Varys probably singled out Gendry to save because Gendry was the bastard that other people had noticed. So later on if Stannis is in a position to pursue the matter, Gendry would be more useful than a bastard that Stannis hadn't already inspected.

But yes, I agree that Varys sent Gendry toward the Wall because Cersei ordered for the bastards to die. I was just arguing that Varys probably never had much of a plan for Gendry.

[John Suburbs]

Thanos Targaryen, on 01 Oct 2014 - 3:45 PM, said:

Not to mention that Gendry is apprenticed to Tobho Mott in particular, who as a Qohori would be one of the remaning few to know the magic that goes into forging Valyrian steel. I imagine that if you have designs on making/remaking an ancestral sword in secret, having someone that knows how to do it and that is deeply in your debt on your payroll is probably a solid idea.

There is also the fact that Varys knows that Stannis knows who Gendry is and that king's blood is very valuable to Mel. So in order to prevent her from using Gendry for some evil spell, he plotted to send him north.

For my own confusion, I'm still puzzled by The Sorrows. At first it seemed like the boat just got caught in some kind of back flow that brought it under the bridge again, but that would mean it would have had to have passed under it three times in order to make it downriver (the first pass, then the backflow pass, and then a third time again.) And it is also clear from the ruins in the water that they pass under the bridge from the same direction twice in a row.

So therefore, it had to have been a magical event. The question is, who did it, and why?

[Mychel_Redfort]

So therefore, it had to have been a magical event. The question is, who did it, and why?

I wonder if the place is not magical in itself, something like the Everglades of Essos ;-) And the hatching of Dany's dragons would have powered it again.

[The Wight]

I don't understand why the food shortages started so early in the story. In aGOT, these people have had 10 years of summer and are expecting several years of winter to come soon. So shouldn't everybody that isn't destitute have 2-3 years supply of food squirreled away? But food shortages become widespread within a year.

The Riverlands was pillaged and burned, so I can understand them not having food. And I know the story is written that with all the men away at war, they weren't able to harvest the crops properly. But why does it all come down to one autumn harvest is supposed to supply everybody with food for several years of winter; so maybe I just don't understand how Westerosi plants work? And with transport so iffy, especially in winter, you'd think Kings Landing would have massive granaries full of food; why does the city suffer shortages so soon?

And if the Night's Watch is low on food already, that just seems like mismanagement on Mormont's part.

Always leaving everything for the last minute.

[The Mountain That Flies]

For my own confusion, I'm still puzzled by The Sorrows. At first it seemed like the boat just got caught in some kind of back flow that brought it under the bridge again, but that would mean it would have had to have passed under it three times in order to make it downriver (the first pass, then the backflow pass, and then a third time again.) And it is also clear from the ruins in the water that they pass under the bridge from the same direction twice in a row.

So therefore, it had to have been a magical event. The question is, who did it, and why?

It's entirely possible that the Sorrows are magical on their own (the Others existed before the dragons, after all), or that they passed under two identical bridges that are designed by the residents to confuse people (how hard do you think they inspected the ruins).

[Consigliere]

For my own confusion, I'm still puzzled by The Sorrows. At first it seemed like the boat just got caught in some kind of back flow that brought it under the bridge again, but that would mean it would have had to have passed under it three times in order to make it downriver (the first pass, then the backflow pass, and then a third time again.) And it is also clear from the ruins in the water that they pass under the bridge from the same direction twice in a row.

So therefore, it had to have been a magical event. The question is, who did it, and why?

The Rhoynar excerpt from TWoIaF seems to suggest that magic was involved.

At Chroyane the cage was hung from the walls, so that the prince might witness the enslavement of the women and children whose fathers and brothers had died in his gallant, hopeless war . . . but the prince, it is said, called down a curse upon the conquerors, entreating Mother Rhoyne to avenge her children. And so, that very night, the Rhoyne flooded out of season and with greater force than was known in living memory. A thick fog full of evil humors fell, and the Valyrian conquerors began to die of greyscale. (There is, at least, this much truth to the tale: in later centuries, Lomas Longstrider wrote of the drowned ruins of Chroyane, its foul fogs and waters, and the fact that wayward travelers infected with grayscale now haunt the ruins—a hazard for those who travel the river beneath the broken span of the Bridge of Dream.

[Northern_Star]

It does bother me, who told Ned and why TOJ of all the places in Westeros?

....

I might be missremembering but, didn't Ned learn about Lyanna's wereabouts at Stormsend?

[Federico]

I might be missremembering but, didn't Ned learn about Lyanna's wereabouts at Stormsend?

I don't recall there being an explicit account from the books as to how Ned learned that Lyanna was at ToJ. I've read great speculation in the forum.

[lady jellybean]

Ok when tryion was teasing jon at the wall bout having ned arrest more builders before his tower falls down on him. Was it foreshadowing of jon burning down the LC tower. Or was it foreshadowing of the wall coming down in the future. Or was it something else concerning what ned did at the TOJ when he brought it down.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I still don't get all the stuff with Ramsey and Reek and who was who when... is it really obvious and I'm just being stupid?

Ramsey took the first Reek's clothes to avoid being killed. So, when it was thought that Ramsay was killed, it was actually Reek. Ramsay being brought to Winterfell under the guise of being Reek is imprisoned. When Theon takes Winterfell, (Reek) Ramsay, swears fealty to him. When Theon needs men to hold Winterfell, Reek (Ramsay) says he is of the North and he can bring men to support Theon. Theon thus lets him go not knowing he is the Bastard of Bolton. When he returns with his men, he is first thought to be friends from the Dreadfort come to support the troops that are there to retake Winterfell for the Starks. Ramsay however turns on the troops taking them by surprise and defeats them, then turns on Theon taking him prisoner. That is how the Boltons took over Winterfell. I hope this helped.