Doctor Who Series 8; The time of the man that stops the monsters (v2)

[felice]

They're both basically robots who are created by 'converting' the living, and in both cases it can be pretty hard to see what the biological component contributes to the mechanical. You just have to kind of accept that there's some x-factor that they both need that comes from the people converted. How they're converted (from a living body or a dead mind) is just a detail.

The biological component is the whole point of the original Daleks and Cybermen; the mechanical bits are life support systems to keep the organic core alive. The mutants living inside Dalek travel machines are autonomous life forms, genetically engineered to have Nazi-like personalities; they're not controlled by computers, and they're not supposed to be made by converting humans. And the Cybermen are supposed to be mostly human, much like Star Trek's Borg, just with less skin showing, though aside from their very first appearance, most of the designs don't do a good job of showing that. Their brains are surgically modified and probably computer-enhanced, but it's still basically an organic brain in control.

I should probably rewatch for the exact quote before getting into this, but my recollection was that they went through all the temptation part and *then* Missy said "besides, if you don't take them then Earth's doomed", or something. That was the part I didn't understand.

She gave the cyberzombie army to the Doctor, but she still had control of the cloud, and if the Doctor didn't use the army in a way that satisfied her, she could unleash the cloud on the living humans.

[mormont]

The biological component is the whole point of the original Daleks and Cybermen

Surely that's true of these cybermen too - the 'biological component', ie the altered minds, are the whole point? And the rest is detail.

Anyway, a little heartwarming on a cold morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-29976527

[protar]

Also what was with the other Robots from Deep Breath and Sherwood looking for the promised land? Was that in any way explained?

[dog-days]

Surely that's true of these cybermen too - the 'biological component', ie the altered minds, are the whole point? And the rest is detail.

But there isn't a biological component, except for old bones and rotted flesh.

As for the (electronic?) minds, I don't understand why millions/billions are necessary. Much better to select a few promising examples and then copy paste.

Also what was with the other Robots from Deep Breath and Sherwood looking for the promised land? Was that in any way explained?

Don't think so. Maybe a thread left hanging for the Christmas special?

[Darian Frey]

Nothing I've read here convinces me that it wasn't anything other than a complete clusterfuck.

Still, having said that IT'S DOCTOR WHO YAYYYYY. And I can forgive it because of that.

[Kobayashi Maru]

Weeellll...it's not complete disaster but I did expect much much more...alas.

so Missy's plan for Clara was to pair doctor with control freak so that said control freak will call him in exactly the right moment...whaaaaa?

[Arataniello]

From the preview for the Chrtistmas Special, I am wondering if that is an

Ice warrior from mars

that we glimpse briefly.

Really wish they would come up with a new and not overused new adversary for the Doctor. Weeping Angels were good until they got used thrice (more?) since their introduction.

I would love to see an episode with this Doctor, Missy and River Song. That would be truly epic.

[dog-days]

If the Who-verse has a Santa, then does he also visit the offspring of other species? Are there baby daleks somewhere praying for a delivery of "My First Exterminator"?

[Darian Frey]

If the Who-verse has a Santa, then does he also visit the offspring of other species? Are there baby daleks somewhere praying for a delivery of "My First Exterminator"?

Please don't give Moffat ideas :P

[felice]

Surely that's true of these cybermen too - the 'biological component', ie the altered minds, are the whole point?

The minds aren't biological, and have no connection at all to the buried skeletons etc (whatever lies Missy tells them to convince them to press delete, though why she needs their permission to edit their brains I'm not sure - maybe that requirement is built into the Matrix technology and Miss can't override it?). Though I suppose since it is possible for people to physically leave the Nethersphere even if they didn't physically enter it (an incredibly stupid idea), it could be creating fresh physical copies of the brains inside the cyberzombie heads. But even if that were the case, there's still no need to build the cybermen around the skeletons of the dead.

Anyway, a little heartwarming on a cold morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-29976527

Thanks 8)

[mormont]

The minds aren't biological

So what?

I'm really not seeing this objection on any level. It's a weird complaint, to me: I just don't get why it's a problem.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I am half expecting Doctor to call Santa Claus Jeff.

[DaveSumm]

So what?

I'm really not seeing this objection on any level. It's a weird complaint, to me: I just don't get why it's a problem.

I could maybe understand that Cybermen need a 'conciousness' in order to operate, but not that incredibly advanced cyborgs need decomposed bone to build on. Or why each 'soul' would need to be matched up to its own skeleton.

[Yurii Hightower]

Please, when is Moffat leaving the show? Please.

[Yurii Hightower]

One of my favourite things about DW has been the diversity of its settings and characters. We have infinite opportunities of meeting people from all over the universe, be it humans or complete different species. But with Moffat everything turns around humans, everything is about humans. London is now the centre of the series, c'mon! Where are the planets, the aliens?

another thing: the new monsters are way too repetitive. Everything Moffat creates goes around the lines of "hard to notice". Weeping angels, The Silence, Listen's fear, The Boneless... :bang:

[polishgenius]

The Boneless weren't a Moffat creation.

They were also not particularly hard to notice, tbf.

[mormont]

I could maybe understand that Cybermen need a 'conciousness' in order to operate, but not that incredibly advanced cyborgs need decomposed bone to build on. Or why each 'soul' would need to be matched up to its own skeleton.

Yeah, but as I said earlier: what's new?

Think about the very first appearance of the cybermen. They had human hands. This was an idea so silly it was ditched by their second appearance, when they appeared to be fully robotic.

Ever since, apart from the late lamented Cyber-chin armour (which hinted that there might be an organic face in there) and a few shots of the brain of the Cyber-controller, Who writers both new and old have largely avoided the subject of exactly which bits of a Cyberman are supposed to be organic. Indeed some have just said that none are, that they've been wholly converted to robots. There's been a common fan assumption that the brain is organic, but Cybermen have always been described as lacking emotions. So clearly, even if the brain is 'original' it's been highly artificially modified.

Ultimately, the only reason there's been any pretence that Cybermen are part-organic is that stories about people being converted into cyborgs are much cooler than stories about making an army of robots. When it comes down to whether it actually makes sense for any bit of a Cyberman to be organic... it kinda doesn't.

So the issue here seems to be that this particular formulation has caused you to notice a problem with the concept that's been there all along.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

A(nother?) reference to Jenny didn't slip past me. Do they actually want us to remember her, or is it just part of Clara demonstrating how much she knows about the Doctor?

[Chaircat Meow]

Yeah, but as I said earlier: what's new?

Think about the very first appearance of the cybermen. They had human hands. This was an idea so silly it was ditched by their second appearance, when they appeared to be fully robotic.

Why was it silly? I really liked the sing song voices too and the creepy cloth faces.

I don't think they came across as fully robotic in the Troughton era btw. It was pretty obvious, at least to me, there was an organic body in the cybersuit.

[felice]

Think about the very first appearance of the cybermen. They had human hands. This was an idea so silly it was ditched by their second appearance, when they appeared to be fully robotic.

It made perfect sense; they had relatively primitive technology at the time, needing big boxes on their chests to hold artificial organs too big to fit inside their bodies. If the original hands were working as well or better than any replacement they could come up with, why not leave them intact?

Ever since... Who writers both new and old have largely avoided the subject of exactly which bits of a Cyberman are supposed to be organic. Indeed some have just said that none are, that they've been wholly converted to robots.

And that's a failure on the part of some of the writers. Just like writing Asylum of the Daleks when they should have written Asylum of the Cybermen instead.

When it comes down to whether it actually makes sense for any bit of a Cyberman to be organic... it kinda doesn't.

Except that preserving the organic life was the whole reason the cyberconversion process was developed in the first place, and there's no reason for them to exist otherwise.