R+L=J v.118

[The Twinslayer]

I did not state that the rules of succession in Europe were clear and always consistent. Neither did I question GRRM's understanding of medieval Europe. What I stated is that GRRM's SSM cannot be used to prove your argument (if I understood you correctly) that Viserys was named the heir based on some precedent set in a prior GC. Neither is there any factual evidence in the text that states that there was any rivalry for the throne involving Viserys and Aegon. As to the precedence vs proximity question, GRRM is using this as an example of the various possible scenarios and unlike what you are suggesting does not in anyway use this to address the KG presence at the TOJ or their decision making process. So from this SSM of GRRM we cannot conclude, as you do, that the KG were obeying orders instead of fulfilling their vows to protect their king.

The Richard II case was a perfect example in medieval Europe when the crown prince died leaving behind a son who was a minor and who then became crown prince, inspite of the fact that his father had adult male siblings. This is exactly the scenario of Aegon and Viserys. And, FYI, Richard the Lionheart did not have any legitimate heirs and that is why his brother John inherited after him. So your argument here is moot.

However, I do agree the laws of succession were not applied uniformly in medieval Europe and that is the point GRRM made in his SSM, no more. In the case of Viserys being Aerys heir, we have no evidence apart from the statement of an unreliable narrator (Yandel). For your theory about the KG obeying orders based on this statement alone to be correct, we need to make broad assumptions, namely, Viserys being Aegon's heir was widely disseminated, and the KG were aware of this, neither of which is implied anywhere in the main series or the WOIAF.

I think you may have misunderstood me, so let me clarify. The mistake that underlies the theory that Jon was born a king and that the KGs automatically recognized this is that in the medieval world and in Westeros, you have the precedence versus proximity problem. The real life example is reflected in what happened when Richard the Lionheart died with no legitimate issue. He had two heirs. One was the son of his brother Geoffrey, a boy named Arthur of Brittany. The other was Richard and Geoffrey's younger brother, John. Arthur had precedence (like just like Aegon did after Rhaegar died) but John had proximity (he was Richard's brother and, more importantly, the son of a king; Arthur was further away from both Richard -- nephew, not brother -- and the throne -- grandson of a king, not son of a king). John had a better claim under Norman customs and he became king -- even though his dead older brother left a son.

What I get from the SSM is that GRRM modeled Westerosi customs on medieval customs, that GRRM was aware of the precedence versus proximity issue, and that there was no clear rule for the Targaryens. Just like there was no clear rule for the Targaryens on whether males came before females prior to the Dance. You need to confront the issue in order to create a precedent.

When King Maekar died, there were a number of possible claimants but the relevant ones are Maegor, who had precedence, and Egg, who had proximity. Egg became king. That is the only precedent we have from Westeros. I am not saying that it would be completely binding on Aerys when Rhaegar died. What I am saying is that it proves that Viserys was in a position to press a legitimate claim that he should come before Aegon. And remember -- this is important -- the question is who is the heir to Aerys, not who is the heir to Rhaegar.

Again, you are assuming that Viserys being heir was widely known. And where does it state that Tywin kept Aegon's death a secret for several days? I haven't seen this but I could be wrong.

I don't think it is reasonable at all to think that Aerys clarified the line of succession without spreading the word. And I think Jaime knew. After he killed Aerys, he considered naming a new dragon king. He thinks first of Viserys, and then of Aegon.

Regarding Tywin keeping Aegon's murder a secret, this is based on some deduction. After the Trident, Ned sped to King's Landing with the cavalry. Robert stayed behind because he was wounded. Ned learned of the death of Aerys immediately -- he saw the body when he entered the throne room. He learned of the death of Aegon only after Robert got down to King's Landing with the infantry, when Tywin presented the bodies to Robert in the throne room. So Aegon's death was a secret for a few days, and if a messenger left King's Landing to notify the 3 KGs the morning after the Sack, he would know that Viserys was the new heir and that Aerys was dead but he would not know that Aegon was dead.

For some further support, in the World Book, after Aegon IV's death, Daeron II is still referred to as Prince Daeron prior to his coronation. In The Princess and the Queen, after Aegon II decides to claim the throne, but before his actual coronation, he is still referred to in the text as Prince Aegon. Likewise, Rhaenyra is last referred to as Princess Rhaenyra prior to her coronation, even though she is mentioned numerous times after the death of Viserys I. That Jon Connington thinks of Aegon as "Prince" does nothing to indicate the strength of his "claim".

This point is sometimes used to refute the argument that the Kingsguard were at the TOJ to guard the new king. Because Jon would not be a king until someone proclaimed him king, and the Kingsguard did not have the authority to do that.

I was actually thinking about this the other day and meant to post in Small Questions. How did Aegon style himself on Dragonstone prior to the conquest? Lord? King of Dragonstone? "The Last Freeholder?" Do we have any idea?

Anyway are you sure he wasn't called a king until then? I know he "dated the start of his reign" from that point, but I would imagine that from the point he sent out those letters saying "There will only be one king" he styled himself king Aegon. During the invasion he was having lords and former kings swear fealty to him as king well before Oldtown.

The picture in the worldbook of Torrhen kneeling to Aegon has Aegon wearing a crown. Also, King's Landing is called King's Landing because that is where King Aegon landed at the start of his invasion.

As far as Prince Aegon goes, I think that Connington and Aegon both realize that Dany has, or at least thinks she has, a better claim, since she was named heir by Viserys. He plans to make his claim as Dany's husband, not just as Rhaegar's son. But his plans change once Tyrion convinces him to invade Westeros, and he realizes that Dany might never come. At that point, even though Connington is still calling him Prince Aegon, he names Rolly Duckfield to his Kingsguard, which is something he would only do if he is now pressing his own independent claim.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

A note on what GRRM said regarding inheritance laws of history.

I think he was making the point that just as there were some rules in real history as we see in his Westeros, power resides where people think it resides therefore those "rules" will reflect that, which is why the results are by nature, murky.

Rhaeneyra was passed over because no one would follow a woman just as Matilda was passed over for Stephen, Aerion Brightflames son was passed over for "fears of madness" which seems a little flimsy to me as I'm not sure how an infant can be "mad," especially since madness was the other half of the gods coin for Targaryens.

But nonetheless Egg became the heir over that son since Aemon removed himself from the succession.

Richard II became his grandfathers, Edward III's heir after his own father the Black Prince suddenly passed away. Richard himself was a younger brother since his elder brother, Edward of Angouleme, also passed away at the age of four.

But, it is also true that he likely became the heir because the infant was much preferred over his unpopular uncle, John of Guant, whose own son, Henry of Bolingbroke would indeed eventually remove and replace him.

I think I'm seeing why you are interested in Maegor's claim. Being an Asian, my knowledge about European monarchs is very limited. to say the least..

On another note, if Grrm does introduce another Targaryen claiment, its highly unlikely the story will be finished in the next 2 books :P.

[MtnLion]

Another thing to add to the succession issue, Jaime calls Aegon the Prince of Dragonstone in Dance when he discusses how Lannisters deal with their enemies to Hoster Blackwood.

Is that the dead Prince of Dragonstone that Jaime is referring to? ;)

[Ser Creighton]

We actually do see Ned do this during the series.

Instead of keeping his honour, he lies and tells the people of KL that he is a traitor for trying to keep Roberts trueborn son Joffrey off the throne to install Stannis as King, and he does so in order to save Sansa, (a loved one).

He doesn't exactly lie with Joff, Joff isn't Roberts son he withheld the truth. With Sansa he lies to protect a child, his child but he also tried to protect Dany.

Now Lady G, did this awhile back it is not half so in depth, but the broad strokes are laid down by the author.

“Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him.”

Ch. 12 Fighting over Dany. The author really begins to lay down not just Roberts hatred of Rhaegar but his blind hatred of Targs, even children who he is willing to murder.

“He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war.”

Right before Ned goes off to eventually find Lyanna and return with baby Jon, two of Rhaegars kids are brutally murdered and Robert is almost happy about it.

“When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm.”

Roberts best friend and father figure could not even scratch the surface of getting past that hatred.

“Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south”

These are not Neds children, these are his enemies children, yet cold rage.

“You are no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents.” It was said that Rhaegar’s little girl had cried as they dragged her from beneath her bed to face the swords. The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin’s soldiers had torn him from his mother’s breast and dashed his head against a wall.

“And how long will this one remain an innocent?” Robert’s mouth grew hard. “This child will soon enough spread her legs and start breeding more dragonspawn to plague me.”

Here the author continues to show 15 years after the fact Roberts blind hatred, he is hammering this idea home.

Now at this point it can be pointed out that outside of Jon being a Targ there really is no need to hide his parentage, but Martin begins to lay the ground work for Ned having a very good reason to hide him. You know I was also wondering about something. Ned will lie in certain situations and there is a great quote when he speaks to Arya about this. But think about it, he never lies to Jon about his mother. He can't tell him, he won't lie to him about her. So if he tells him his mother name it is clear he is not the father. Which leaves very limited options. He tells about the mom he has to tell about the dad. And that is a direct threat to hiss life, one slip of the tongue from a teenage boy and that could be war for the Starks or death for Jon. It's a rather valid reason to hide him and not say anything to him.

“Nonetheless,” Ned said, “the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …”

Imagine if Ned had seen the 163? But seriously Ned clearly has his stance.

“Unspeakable?” the king roared. “What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?” His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. “I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.”

This is 15 years later, I can't imagine what he was like during the rebellion. But there is clear justification placed in the story by the author for Ned to hide Rhaegar' son.

“I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him.”

“Jon Arryn was a wise man and a good Hand.”

On a side note Jon saved Dany' life, but again we see that insane rage. Funny I know another wise man who protected a Targaryen child. Though I do wonder if Jon Arryn new about Jon, he is such a central catalyst to all this and Jon is named after him. You know he practically raised Ned, and I am sure he knew him well enough to know he would probably not father bastards like Robert had. Ned tended to be very respectful and responsible.

You know when Robert mentions rape Ned never flinches, and we know he loved his sister very much. In fact he literally blacked out when she died. That is serious grief. Yet when he does think of Rhaegar, he thinks of him rather calmly, it doesn't matter what he is thinking the idea of Rhaegar does not really upset him and he proves more than willing to defend Targaryen children. Including almost going to war over Dany a child he never met. I mean think about Ned does get angry he has had arguments with Robert over Targaryens funny enough, but you never saw him get angry about Rhaegar. Never, and that does not seem odd to some people? He has every reason in the world to hate that man, yet never gets angry over him. He gets angry over the murder of Targaryen children and when Targaryen children are threatened. Children in general but these are the particulars that Martin used, Rhaegars kids and Dany.

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no “stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

Now here is the thing, when they begin speaking about the war in this chapter, chapter 12, Ned refers to Roberts hatred over 15 years. But when Ned speaks of his lies he says 14 years. Jon' age. And right after that you get this.

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

Robert calls out Neds honor and brings up Lyanna. Does Ned get angry?

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.”

14 Years ago a promise was born and a child was hid to protect him from a crazed King.

“Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away,”

When the talk of assassination in brought up, Neds mind jumps back to the Targaryens and the threat Robert was to them and then this pops up.

“He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.”

Sansa had pleaded for a life to be spared. Apperantly so had Lyanna as he associates them both as being the same. What life might that be?

“The king took a swallow of wine and glowered at Ned across the council table. “So you would counsel me to do nothing until the dragonspawn has landed his army on my shores, is that it?”

More blind Targaryen hatred.

“Lord Renly shrugged. “The matter seems simple enough to me. We ought to have had Viserys and his sister killed “years ago, but His Grace my brother made the mistake of listening to Jon Arryn.”

More indifference and blind stupidity, and this from Roberts Brother. Varys is also attempting to get Dany killed here and if not for Mormont switching sides she would be dead by Roberts commands.

“Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly,” Ned replied.

Then Ned went into talking about Selmy and it's interesting how that came full circle. The choices of Ned and Jon Arryn will probably rule the fate of man.

“Robert had shame enough to blush. “It was not the same,” he complained. “Ser Barristan was a knight of the Kingsguard.”

“Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl.” Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

A little lost with the preventing the murder of children thing at this point, but Ned could be making a plea to emotion, but at worst the author is making sure preventing the murder of children is placed in the argument.

“To put an end to Targaryens!” the king growled.”

Not Aerys, not Rhaegar all Targs, he wants them all dead including children. The author is basically beating you over the head with this idea.

“Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar.” Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. “Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?”

Not really insulting Rhaegar here is he, no he is using Rhaegar to insult Robert who is basically his brother.

“Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion”

"Always?" Robert did tend to cool off except on one subject, the Targaryens. It's easy to see why he would hide Jon. Also why he would not tell him about his mother. While Robert lived the truth was as good as death to Jon. There is no reason not tell Jon about his mother if it is Wylla or Ashara, or any such person, but Lyanna? You can't tell one truth without telling the other. Do you trust a boy, a teen with information that could get him killed? A slip, an outburst, a single remark, and Jon becomes a target for Robert. Ned did not lie to Jon, he just could not tell him who his mother and father were and the author has given plenty of reason to understand this.

Ned does not like withholding the truth, Ned does not like thinking about the worst day of his life when his sister died, or that time in his life where his family was murdered. That is understandable. But as pointed out even though he does have a temper which he demonstrated more than once with Robert, he holds no Malice towards Rhaegar and sought to defend the Targaryen children, all of them. After all they would be his family as well now wouldn't they. They are now related by blood, the Starks and Targaryens are family, and both houses have been near decimated. The actions of Jon Arryn and Ned Stark may well be the only chance man has to survive. If you want to pick sides that's on whoever, but circle to what they set in motion.

Varys, Pycell, Renly, Robert, Littlefinger, they were all willing to kill a teenage girl just to murder her unborn child. That is the world Ned lived in, of course he hid Jon. Did you read some of the comments from those idiots? The indifference to killing children?

[markg171]

He doesn't exactly lie with Joff, Joff isn't Roberts son he withheld the truth. With Sansa he lies to protect a child, his child but he also tried to protect Dany.

Now Lady G, did this awhile back it is not half so in depth, but the broad strokes are laid down by the author.

“Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him.”

Ch. 12 Fighting over Dany. The author really begins to lay down not just Roberts hatred of Rhaegar but his blind hatred of Targs, even children who he is willing to murder.

“He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war.”

Right before Ned goes off to eventually find Lyanna and return with baby Jon, two of Rhaegars kids are brutally murdered and Robert is almost happy about it.

“When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm.”

Roberts best friend and father figure could not even scratch the surface of getting past that hatred.

“Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south”

These are not Neds children, these are his enemies children, yet cold rage.

“You are no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents.” It was said that Rhaegar’s little girl had cried as they dragged her from beneath her bed to face the swords. The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin’s soldiers had torn him from his mother’s breast and dashed his head against a wall.

“And how long will this one remain an innocent?” Robert’s mouth grew hard. “This child will soon enough spread her legs and start breeding more dragonspawn to plague me.”

Here the author continues to show 15 years after the fact Roberts blind hatred, he is hammering this idea home.

Now at this point it can be pointed out that outside of Jon being a Targ there really is no need to hide his parentage, but Martin begins to lay the ground work for Ned having a very good reason to hide him. You know I was also wondering about something. Ned will lie in certain situations and there is a great quote when he speaks to Arya about this. But think about it, he never lies to Jon about his mother. He can't tell him, he won't lie to him about her. So if he tells him his mother name it is clear he is not the father. Which leaves very limited options. He tells about the mom he has to tell about the dad. And that is a direct threat to hiss life, one slip of the tongue from a teenage boy and that could be war for the Starks or death for Jon. It's a rather valid reason to hide him and not say anything to him.

“Nonetheless,” Ned said, “the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …”

Imagine if Ned had seen the 163? But seriously Ned clearly has his stance.

“Unspeakable?” the king roared. “What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?” His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. “I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.”

This is 15 years later, I can't imagine what he was like during the rebellion. But there is clear justification placed in the story by the author for Ned to hide Rhaegar' son.

“I should have had them both killed years ago, when it was easy to get at them, but Jon was as bad as you. More fool I, I listened to him.”

“Jon Arryn was a wise man and a good Hand.”

On a side note Jon saved Dany' life, but again we see that insane rage. Funny I know another wise man who protected a Targaryen child. Though I do wonder if Jon Arryn new about Jon, he is such a central catalyst to all this and Jon is named after him. You know he practically raised Ned, and I am sure he knew him well enough to know he would probably not father bastards like Robert had. Ned tended to be very respectful and responsible.

You know when Robert mentions rape Ned never flinches, and we know he loved his sister very much. In fact he literally blacked out when she died. That is serious grief. Yet when he does think of Rhaegar, he thinks of him rather calmly, it doesn't matter what he is thinking the idea of Rhaegar does not really upset him and he proves more than willing to defend Targaryen children. Including almost going to war over Dany a child he never met. I mean think about Ned does get angry he has had arguments with Robert over Targaryens funny enough, but you never saw him get angry about Rhaegar. Never, and that does not seem odd to some people? He has every reason in the world to hate that man, yet never gets angry over him. He gets angry over the murder of Targaryen children and when Targaryen children are threatened. Children in general but these are the particulars that Martin used, Rhaegars kids and Dany.

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no “stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

Now here is the thing, when they begin speaking about the war in this chapter, chapter 12, Ned refers to Roberts hatred over 15 years. But when Ned speaks of his lies he says 14 years. Jon' age. And right after that you get this.

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

Robert calls out Neds honor and brings up Lyanna. Does Ned get angry?

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.”

14 Years ago a promise was born and a child was hid to protect him from a crazed King.

“Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away,”

When the talk of assassination in brought up, Neds mind jumps back to the Targaryens and the threat Robert was to them and then this pops up.

“He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.”

Sansa had pleaded for a life to be spared. Apperantly so had Lyanna as he associates them both as being the same. What life might that be?

“The king took a swallow of wine and glowered at Ned across the council table. “So you would counsel me to do nothing until the dragonspawn has landed his army on my shores, is that it?”

More blind Targaryen hatred.

“Lord Renly shrugged. “The matter seems simple enough to me. We ought to have had Viserys and his sister killed “years ago, but His Grace my brother made the mistake of listening to Jon Arryn.”

More indifference and blind stupidity, and this from Roberts Brother. Varys is also attempting to get Dany killed here and if not for Mormont switching sides she would be dead by Roberts commands.

“Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly,” Ned replied.

Then Ned went into talking about Selmy and it's interesting how that came full circle. The choices of Ned and Jon Arryn will probably rule the fate of man.

“Robert had shame enough to blush. “It was not the same,” he complained. “Ser Barristan was a knight of the Kingsguard.”

“Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl.” Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

A little lost with the preventing the murder of children thing at this point, but Ned could be making a plea to emotion, but at worst the author is making sure preventing the murder of children is placed in the argument.

“To put an end to Targaryens!” the king growled.”

Not Aerys, not Rhaegar all Targs, he wants them all dead including children. The author is basically beating you over the head with this idea.

“Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar.” Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. “Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?”

Not really insulting Rhaegar here is he, no he is using Rhaegar to insult Robert who is basically his brother.

“Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion”

"Always?" Robert did tend to cool off except on one subject, the Targaryens. It's easy to see why he would hide Jon. Also why he would not tell him about his mother. While Robert lived the truth was as good as death to Jon. There is no reason not tell Jon about his mother if it is Wylla or Ashara, or any such person, but Lyanna? You can't tell one truth without telling the other. Do you trust a boy, a teen with information that could get him killed? A slip, an outburst, a single remark, and Jon becomes a target for Robert. Ned did not lie to Jon, he just could not tell him who his mother and father were and the author has given plenty of reason to understand this.

Ned does not like withholding the truth, Ned does not like thinking about the worst day of his life when his sister died, or that time in his life where his family was murdered. That is understandable. But as pointed out even though he does have a temper which he demonstrated more than once with Robert, he holds no Malice towards Rhaegar and sought to defend the Targaryen children, all of them. After all they would be his family as well now wouldn't they. They are now related by blood, the Starks and Targaryens are family, and both houses have been near decimated. The actions of Jon Arryn and Ned Stark may well be the only chance man has to survive. If you want to pick sides that's on whoever, but circle to what they set in motion.

Varys, Pycell, Renly, Robert, Littlefinger, they were all willing to kill a teenage girl just to murder her unborn child. That is the world Ned lived in, of course he hid Jon. Did you read some of the comments from those idiots? The indifference to killing children?

This makes no sense. Ned storms off in a cold rage before he ever meets Lyanna at the TOJ. So he's angry about murdered children before he could ever meet Jon, if Jon is Rhaegar's son. Therefore, we see he already has a bias against murdering children, whereas you're saying he gets this bias from having found Jon. Ned was already against murdering kids.

Then you make mention of the fact that Ned remembers his lies of 14 years and say that this refers to Jon. Jon turns 15 very soon in the novel, and is already 15 when Ned thinks of his lies of 14 years. So it can't be about Jon. Ned's lies start a year into Jon's life.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

This point is sometimes used to refute the argument that the Kingsguard were at the TOJ to guard the new king. Because Jon would not be a king until someone proclaimed him king, and the Kingsguard did not have the authority to do that.

Jon would obviously not be the King proper at that point, unless someone had crowned him, yes. That said, the Kingsguard are not robots who shut down when there's no King around. The further implication of your point is that during an interregnum, the Kingsguard would run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Also regarding Aegon I's crowning, he was crowned by his sisters at the Aegonfort after taking the mouth of the Blackwater and defeating the (small) host of Lords Darklyn and Mooton.

[Ser Creighton]

This makes no sense. Ned storms off in a cold rage before he ever meets Lyanna at the TOJ. So he's angry about murdered children before he could ever meet Jon, if Jon is Rhaegar's son. Therefore, we see he already has a bias against murdering children, whereas you're saying he gets this bias from having found Jon. Ned was already against murdering kids.

Then you make mention of the fact that Ned remembers his lies of 14 years and say that this refers to Jon. Jon turns 15 very soon in the novel, and is already 15 when Ned thinks of his lies of 14 years. So it can't be about Jon. Ned's lies start a year into Jon's life.

What are you talking about? He has a bias against murdered children? That's not actually bias, Robert has a bias against all Targaryens and wants them dead. Ned leaves knowing Robert is fine and even capable of killing children. Thus it gives Ned reason to fear for the life of a Targaryen child which is repeated over and over again. Is Ned thinking oh Jon would be safe if the truth is known or that Robert would be a danger to his life and Robert is king? I am not sure how you can confuse that idea.

Bias a tendency to believe that some people, ideas, etc., are better than others that usually results in treating some people unfairly.

Yes there is nothing unfair about not wanting children murdered it's perfectly normal to not want children murdered. Lets get that clear.

Well Jon was not 15 yet, he was 14 and there is no twisting that fact, would you have Ned say 14 years 6 months and 7 days ago I made promise about Jon to his mother Lyanna. Yeah would kind ruin the point of a mystery.

[Ser Leftwich]

It is probably safe to say that Ned has been against the murder of children for most of his life. Either specifically or hypothetically, see the quote from AGoT about why they rebelled in the first place.

The stress in this instance is Robert's specific indifference to and really enthusiasm about the deaths/murder of Targaryen children.

ETA: Also, specifically, this attitude about Aerys and murdered children could derive from either the Darklyn aftermath of the Defiance of Duskendale or the execution of Brandon's companions. Or hypothetically, just bad things that Aerys did.

[Ser Creighton]

It is probably safe to say that Ned has been against the murder of children for most of his life. Either specifically or hypothetically, see the quote from AGoT about why they rebelled in the first place.

The stress in this instance is Robert's specific indifference to and really enthusiasm about the deaths/murder of Targaryen children.

Exactly. At what point did it become unfair not to murder children? The entire conversation about killing Dany and her unborn child is disturbing, and has Ned tossing in his hands badge and being like fuck this I am so out.

Selmy as well talks about the moment of the death of Rhaegars children, saying he would of killed Robert had he seen him smiling over their bodies. And that is a man who Robert showed kindness to and spared his life. It's literally a repetitive theme in Neds story and specifically about Targ children. Over and over Martin takes us there with Ned and Robert. It is clear there is a reason to fear for a Targaryen child's life as long as Robert lives. Even Jon Arryn had to do this repeatedly with Robert.

That little shit Renly is all Jon was a fool and we should of killed her long ago and LF comments? I mean fuck that guy. Killing a young girl and a baby is just like being in bed with an ugly woman best to kiss her goodbye and get it over with. The kiss of steel that is, hahahahaha. Fuck yoouuuuuuuuuuuuu. Yeah Ned seems to have had ample reason to worry.

[J. Stargaryen]

Still places the happy couple at Starfall, and in that case our theories only differ in the question of whether Jon was with the Kings Guard at the tower or still back at the ranch with Lyanna when the two parties met in the Pass.

One of my problems with the traditional scenario is that if absolutely everybody was at that crumbling tower, then Ned embarks on a journey to Starfall encumbered by a new-born babe and the corpse of his sister - and this in Dorne where its so hot that if a body isn't in the ground by nightfall it won't walk but run.

Your theory, may it rest in peace, is nothing like Ran's. I'm not sure in what way that is not clear to you. :dunno:

In that case, Ned brought the Dawn back to Starfall and took Jon. Looks like a sword exchange with Jon being the Lightbringer ;)

The same thought had occurred to me, too. It is interesting that Jon was born in the presence of the (likely) original LB.

[Mithras]

The same thought had occurred to me, too. It is interesting that Jon was born in the presence of the (likely) original LB.

I don't think the original LB was Dawn. The sword is either the work of the proto-Valyrian race that visited Westeros long before the First Men came or it was made during the Andal age. I think Dawn is more likely to be a red herring for Lightbringer.

[Ser Creighton]

Still places the happy couple at Starfall, and in that case our theories only differ in the question of whether Jon was with the Kings Guard at the tower or still back at the ranch with Lyanna when the two parties met in the Pass.

One of my problems with the traditional scenario is that if absolutely everybody was at that crumbling tower, then Ned embarks on a journey to Starfall encumbered by a new-born babe and the corpse of his sister - and this in Dorne where its so hot that if a body isn't in the ground by nightfall it won't walk but run.

I don't discount at some point they may have been at Starfall, or that Jon was even taken there for whatever reason, protection, disease, whatever. But that part where you say Lyanna was back at the ranch after Ned met the KG. Do you mean Starfall? Cause it's stated he found her in the Tower.

As for the question of Jon at the Tower. At the very least there are options. It is suspected that Wylla was there, when Ned is holding Lyanna' dead body it says they found him. Not Howland found him. So yo ucould of had a midwife there who is also a wet nurse. Which makes sense because in a very state Lyanna would not have been able to care for Jon. It seems Ned took his time in what he was doing, so I tend to follow Ran' theory a bit myself. He could of gone to Starfall and sent Jon back with Wylla and Howland, at the very least he would needed a Wet nurse no matter what. Jon' wet nurse is never mentioned but once by Cat, but where did she go after Jon got older? She could have information. Lucky for us Martin does in fact associate a wet Nurse with Jon, Wylla at Starfall. I do wonder if she actually spent a couple of years at Winterfell.

It seems pretty clear that Starfall was in league with Ned over Jon. It would be useful to have someone outside a Wet Nurse and Howland to give Jon' story some support. House Dayne would not be a bad way to go. Though clearly Edric aka Ned has no clue. I know some support the idea of Wylla as his mother but I mean really, he kills Arthur, Ashara, Jumps, Ned takes a bastard child with him for no reason when he could stay with his mother, and she gets hired by Starfall cause they just can't be reminded enough of Ned Stark. Such fond memories. Seems a bit of stretch.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't think the original LB was Dawn. The sword is either the work of the proto-Valyrian race that visited Westeros long before the First Men came or it was made during the Andal age. I think Dawn is more likely to be a red herring for Lightbringer.

LB was forged in the heart of Nissa Nissa. Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star. Coincidence? There is a House that has a falling star as a sigil, btw. :)

[Black Crow]

I don't discount at some point they may have been at Starfall, or that Jon was even taken there for whatever reason, protection, disease, whatever. But that part where you say Lyanna was back at the ranch after Ned met the KG. Do you mean Starfall? Cause it's stated he found her in the Tower.

Yes I am indeed referring to Starfall. All we have to link Lya to the Tower is Ned's dream and when GRRM was asked about it he responded:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

We know from his memory after waking up that there were indeed seven against three and that all but he and Howland Reed died, so that bit was literal. Does the fact that in the dream Ned was unable to recall the faces of his companions so that they appeared as wraiths, justify that warning or is it self evident because it certainly doesn't have any bearing on the outcome. What about the dialogue then? Its possible, but somehow it seems too precise to be dismissed - and if you do that raises problems for everybody in how its interpreted. That then leaves us with Lya and there it does make sense, given the practical problems with locating her in or at least at the tower, if what GRRM was referring to was Ned compressing his memories of the fight and his memories of Lya's death into a single location. The two are certainly connected but its not necessary that they should take place at the same time, especially if by relocating Lya to Starfall a whole host of practical difficulties are resolved.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes I am indeed referring to Starfall. All we have to link Lya to the Tower is Ned's dream and when GRRM was asked about it he responded:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

We know from his memory after waking up that there were indeed seven against three and that all but he and Howland Reed died, so that bit was literal. Does the fact that in the dream Ned was unable to recall the faces of his companions so that they appeared as wraiths, justify that warning or is it self evident because it certainly doesn't have any bearing on the outcome. What about the dialogue then? Its possible, but somehow it seems too precise to be dismissed - and if you do that raises problems for everybody in how its interpreted. That then leaves us with Lya and there it does make sense, given the practical problems with locating her in or at least at the tower, if what GRRM was referring to was Ned compressing his memories of the fight and his memories of Lya's death into a single location. The two are certainly connected but its not necessary that they should take place at the same time, especially if by relocating Lya to Starfall a whole host of practical difficulties are resolved.

Not at all. I mean, really? If the dialogue is the figurative part, then it simply works as a clue for the readers. No problems here.

[Black Crow]

GRRM was talking about what happened there.

[markg171]

What are you talking about? He has a bias against murdered children? That's not actually bias, Robert has a bias against all Targaryens and wants them dead. Ned leaves knowing Robert is fine and even capable of killing children. Thus it gives Ned reason to fear for the life of a Targaryen child which is repeated over and over again. Is Ned thinking oh Jon would be safe if the truth is known or that Robert would be a danger to his life and Robert is king? I am not sure how you can confuse that idea.

Bias a tendency to believe that some people, ideas, etc., are better than others that usually results in treating some people unfairly.

Yes there is nothing unfair about not wanting children murdered it's perfectly normal to not want children murdered. Lets get that clear.

Well Jon was not 15 yet, he was 14 and there is no twisting that fact, would you have Ned say 14 years 6 months and 7 days ago I made promise about Jon to his mother Lyanna. Yeah would kind ruin the point of a mystery.

I was saying that Ned was already against murdering children before he ever went to the TOJ. Anything he found there wasn't going to change his opinion. The poster I was responding to however, said that Ned was angry at the murder of Aegon by Tywin and that he was angry because he already had Jon at this point. He was specifically mad because he knew Robert would kill Jon if he found out he was Rhaegar's son. But Ned did not havery Jon at this point if Jon is from the TOJ as he hadn't been there yet. So Ned storming off from KL in a "cold rage" simply means he just dislikes killing children.

And no, Jon is very clearly 15 by the time that Ned thinks of his lies from 14 years ago. Jon becomes 15 either before he gets to the Wall or within his first weeks at Castle Black as he tells Tyrion that his name day passed a fortnight ago. It takes far longer to get to King's Landing than it does the Wall from Winterfell, and Ned doesn't think about his lies until after he's in King's Landing. His lies can't be about Jon Snow as they're off by a year. That's a fact, none of this rounding bullshit that you're suggesting. Jon is 15 when Ned comments about his lies for 14 years. His lies have nothing to do with Jon's birth

[Greymoon]

How many of you reckon that Martin's blue flower is a reference to Novalis, the writer/poet of the romantic period, who introduced the blue flower as a symbol to represent (in turn) absolute love, inspiration, the unattainable...and the passage between the real world, and the spiritual one?

In Henry of Ofterdingen, the blue flower eventually comes to be associated to Mathilde, later Henry's betrothed....

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31873/31873-h/31873-h.htm

The young man lay restless on his bed, thinking of the stranger and his tales. "It is not the treasures," said he to himself, "that have awakened in me such unutterable longings. Far from me is all avarice; but I long to behold the blue flower. It is constantly in my mind, and I can think and compose of nothing else. I have never been in such a mood. It seems as if I had hitherto been dreaming, or slumbering into another world; for in the world, in which hitherto I have lived, who would trouble himself about a flower?--I never have heard of such a strange passion for a flower here.

[...]

A sweeter slumber now overcame him. He dreamed of many strange events, and a new vision appeared to him. He dreamed that he was sitting on the soft turf by the margin of a fountain, whose waters flowed into the air, and seemed to vanish in it. Dark blue rocks with various colored veins rose in the distance. The daylight around him was milder and clearer than usual; the sky was of a sombre blue, and free from clouds. But what most attracted his notice, was a tall, light-blue flower, which stood nearest the fountain, and touched it with its broad, glossy leaves. Around it grew numberless flowers of varied hue, filling the air with the richest perfume. But he saw the blue flower alone, and gazed long upon it with inexpressible tenderness. He at length was about to approach it, when it began to move, and change its form. The leaves increased their beauty, adorning the growing stem. The flower bended towards him, and revealed among its leaves a blue, outspread collar, within which hovered a tender face.

and it gets better, Henry is told the tale of a princess who eloped with a low born lad, and hid away from the King until she was with child....

A higher power seemed to have taken upon itself to loosen the knot more quickly, and to have brought them under peculiar circumstances into this romantic situation. The innocence of their hearts, the magic harmony of their minds, the united, irresistible power of their sweet passion, and their youth, soon made them forget the world and their relations to it, and lulled them, under the bridal song of the tempest and the nuptial torches of the lightning, into the sweetest intoxication, by which a mortal couple ever has been blessed.

[...]

In the mean time the court had fallen into the greatest alarm, when, at evening, the princess was missing. The king was entirely beside himself, and sent people in every direction to seek her. No man could explain her absence. No one mistrusted that she was entangled in a love affair, and therefore an elopement was not thought of. Moreover no other person of the court was missing, nor was there any cause for the remotest suspicion. The messengers returned without having accomplished anything, and the king sank into the deepest dejection.

A year after the disappearance of the princess, a minstrel appears at court, his voice so captivating that the king is filled with joy. While the minstrel sings, a woman of noble stature appears, carrying a beautiful child in her arms...she reveals herself,

The princess, her eyes streaming with tears, fell at the feet of the king, and reached to him the beauteous child. The minstrel knelt with bowed head at her side. An anxious silence seemed to hold the breath of every one suspended. For a few moments the king remained grave and speechless; then he took the princess to his bosom, pressed her to himself with a warm embrace, and wept aloud.

or, how the tale of Bael the Bard, really originated in Henry of Ofterdingen; himself, a fabled German minstrel (Minnesänger)....

The blue flower, could also be a reference to P. Fitzgerald, The Blue Flower, that tells the life of Novalis and his tragic love for a child-woman, who died at the tender age of 15...

In any case, the blue flower is the symbol of german romanticism par excellence. It's sort of strange that the wiki article only references GRRM as making use of the symbol, but without connecting it explicitly to Novalis, or other instances of its various uses in literature. And it is such a recurring symbol in literature that it's use cannot possibly be meaningless. GRRM could have chosen a green flower or whatever. But he chose a blue one instead. No hazard here.

[J. Stargaryen]

GRRM was talking about what happened there.

So? How does that change anything?

[MtnLion]

Yes I am indeed referring to Starfall. All we have to link Lya to the Tower is Ned's dream and when GRRM was asked about it he responded:

That is not the only thing that we have. See the quote in my signature:

From the App: "At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy."