R+L=J v.118

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

For some reason, double post...

[Kingmonkey]

I've read a theory saying that, as it was winter, the only roses they could have found were in Winterfell.

We we know for a fact that there were some blue roses at Harrenhal, so the only question is how and when they got there.

If they're really all that rare and valuable, it's not hard to imagine that they would be traded. If Sansa can love lemon cakes made from Dornish lemons, there's obviously a fairly extensive trade network for regional goods in Westeros. Even smallfolk in the riverlands get their hands on oranges sometimes. Even if the blue roses are only grown in Winterfell, no reason to assume they wouldn't be sold at Harrenhal.

I'm sure that when word got out that a huge tourney was in the offing, there would be traders bringing flowers by the cartload. So why not some blue roses, be it for Lord Whent or Rhaegar to buy?

[Amoracchius]

This was probably not brought before:

The fingers of his left hand were slimy with blood, and his right throbbed from the weight of the bucket.

This is Jon feeding meat to the ravens in AGoT. His right hand was recently burned and bandaged, hence the throbbing from holding the bucket.

This is Jon wielding fire in his right hand and blood in his left hand. Fire and Blood: the words of House Targaryen.

In my profile photo, Mithras the Lightbringer is born from rock, holding a sword and a torch in both hands.

This fire and blood imagery reminds me of Trios. The Trios has three heads. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. As of yet, no one knows what the middle head is supposed to do.

A dwarf was cut into pieces and fed into the three mouths of the Trios statue. When the pieces are put together, the head was missing.

There is a strong symbolism of death and rebirth here. In Jon's case, after being reborn, his head will be missing too.

But the dragon has three heads. Jon Snow will be missing whereas Jon Stark and Jon Targaryen will remain.

Jon was serving meat to the ravens that are natural scavengers. The flesh of the dead is feeding the ravens. The dying being reborn through Jon’s left hand. The right hand is holding a bucket full of chopped meat. Chopped meat is from the slain who are devoured by the fiery hand of Jon.

This is great analysis, Mithras. Thanks for sharing.

I'm still really intrigued by the possibility of Jon's hair color changing from dark brown to white/silver after his resurrection, a la Finn McCool (and Theon and Lancel after their injuries). When I read about the resurrection and the missing head, I can't help but think about the possibility of Jon's Stark features being transformed into Targaryan features.

[Ser Leftwich]

It was the king’s voice that put an end to it … the king’s voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. “STOP THIS MADNESS,” he boomed, “IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!” - AGoT p. 316

Robert's voice rose in volume and he has blue eyes, so he must be related to the imagery of the blue flower!

[Greymoon]

It was the king’s voice that put an end to it … the king’s voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. “STOP THIS MADNESS,” he boomed, “IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!” - AGoT p. 316

Robert's voice rose in volume and he has blue eyes, so he must be related to the imagery of the blue flower!

err... is this directed at a post in particular?

[Ser Leftwich]

err... is this directed at a post in particular?

No, just some Comic Sans rage about arguing the clues of R+L=J as individual and separate elements as opposed to holistically.

[Ygrain]

This is great analysis, Mithras. Thanks for sharing.

I'm still really intrigued by the possibility of Jon's hair color changing from dark brown to white/silver after his resurrection, a la Finn McCool (and Theon and Lancel after their injuries). When I read about the resurrection and the missing head, I can't help but think about the possibility of Jon's Stark features being transformed into Targaryan features.

... and with white hair, it will become visible that his eyes are actually not dark grey but dark purple :P

[Ser Creighton]

... and with white hair, it will become visible that his eyes are actually not dark grey but dark purple :P

Yeah Jon with Darkstar hair, "I am of the Night... Watch?"

[Greymoon]

No, just some Comic Sans rage about arguing the clues of R+L=J as individual and separate elements as opposed to holistically.

okay, confusion lifted. And understood ;)

[markg171]

No, just some Comic Sans rage about arguing the clues of R+L=J as individual and separate elements as opposed to holistically.

I've seen people say that a blue panel in a stain glass window was a blue rose.

[Ser Leftwich]

I've seen people say that a blue panel in a stain glass window was a blue rose.

"The medium is the message." There is a massive difference in the written word and television. How authors convey metaphors and allusions has to be done differently.

[Ser Creighton]

I've seen people say that a blue panel in a stain glass window was a blue rose.

Depends how good your TV is in some cases.

[The Twinslayer]

I've seen people say that a blue panel in a stain glass window was a blue rose.

I've seen people say that when Robert jokes that the small folk in the North are hiding from the King under the late summer snow, it really means that there is a King in the North hiding from another King under the name "Snow." It usually involves abbreviating the quote to cut out the reference to the small folk.

[RumHam]

I've seen people say that a blue panel in a stain glass window was a blue rose.

I was playing that new game of thrones game the other day and saw that window and meant to mention it. There's some red ones and some blue ones. I didn't really look like a rose to me, but then that's just in the game.

You mean before the Conquest? He was just Lord Aegon Targaryen of Dragonstone..

Or do you mean during the Conquest? I'm not sure.. he did say "there will only be one king", but he was looking to overthrow other kings, so it might not have made an impression had he not called himself king..

Perhaps he already did, at that point, consider himself a king.. he could have declared himself king of Dragonstone and conquered from that point on. But from his coronation in Oldtown, he was considered the King of the Seven Kingdoms (despite only ruling six)..

Yeah my original question was how did he (and his post-doom ancestors) style himself before the conquest. I checked the worldbook for Lord Aegon and saw this:

Years before that voyage, the Painted Table had been carved and decorated at Lord Aegon’s command

So yeah. I'm not sure either what he called himself during the conquest, but I'd lean towards king. He was going around wearing a crown and making people swear oaths of fealty to him. I think the "dating his rule from oldtown" thing was basically a PR move to make it official.

[Amoracchius]

I've seen people say that when Robert jokes that the small folk in the North are hiding from the King under the late summer snow, it really means that there is a King in the North hiding from another King under the name "Snow." It usually involves abbreviating the quote to cut out the reference to the small folk.

You mean this?

"I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

"Likely they were to shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming from up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!" The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.

You are correct that Robert was referring to the people of the north hiding, not kings hiding, but the way it is written, with Ned mentioning kings and Robert responding by mentioning Snow, is taken to be a hint or subtle clue by many, myself included.

[BearQueen87]

Yeah Jon with Darkstar hair, "I am of the Night... Watch?"

hot

I've seen people say that when Robert jokes that the small folk in the North are hiding from the King under the late summer snow, it really means that there is a King in the North hiding from another King under the name "Snow." It usually involves abbreviating the quote to cut out the reference to the small folk.

Actually it involves understanding the rules of grammar and how GRRM is deliberately playing with them to make the subject of "hiding" vague.

[The Twinslayer]

You mean this?

You are correct that Robert was referring to the people of the north hiding, not kings hiding, but the way it is written, with Ned mentioning kings and Robert responding by mentioning Snow, is taken to be a hint or subtle clue by many, myself included.

Kudos for posting the full quote and for including the paragraph breaks. Usually, we just get this:

"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

Which gives a very different impression.

But I think you are reading way too much into this. The purpose of this passage is to set up the fact (revealed moments later) that the Starks used to be Kings in the North, they bent the knee to the Targaryens, and Ned is acknowledging that as Lord of Winterfell he is a vassal to the Iron Throne rather than an independent king. The part about the snow is to tell us that in the North it snows in the summer (unlike the South) just before we hear that the old Lords of Winterfell (a/k/a the kings in the North) were as hard as the land they ruled.

There are other passages that can be read as hints of a possible royal future for Jon but this isn't one of them. It's just too clumsy.

[The Twinslayer]

Actually it involves understanding the rules of grammar and how GRRM is deliberately playing with them to make the subject of "hiding" vague.

Does that mean that the plural pronoun "they" is used to describe the individual named "Jon Snow" and that the past tense ("were hiding") is used to describe what Jon is doing in the present?

[markg171]

"The medium is the message." There is a massive difference in the written word and television. How authors convey metaphors and allusions has to be done differently.

You're right. It's a TV show. if you want to put a blue rose in the scene, you can put a blue fucking rose in the scene. Not a blue panel that looks nothing like a rose.

[Ellfoy]

Does that mean that the plural pronoun "they" is used to describe the individual named "Jon Snow" and that the past tense ("were hiding") is used to describe what Jon is doing in the present?

It 's supposed to be a subtle hint. Of course, "Jon Snow = King in hiding" is not the primary sense here. It is a double meaning. A wordplay.