Septa Mordane and the education of the Stark girls

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Seems like Arya remembers that Sansa was good at sums and would manage a budget well (while she wouldn't) so they were getting some sort of education in castle management. Arya was fairly good at recognizing sigils as she was on the run too. Not perfect, but she knew the majority of them. She also had some sort of idea of which northmen that might help her. While there was a definite divide in what the boys were learning and what the girls were, it seems that Bran was just starting to be included in 'manly' activities.I think their ages have a lot to do with their education, but I also think that Ned was derelict in giving the girls guidance in courtly activities at Kings Landing...granted, things moved pretty fast and he was swamped with other concerns, but it seems that the girls were pretty much adrift there. I think the septa was trying to educate Sansa the day she took her to court, but it was just an unfortunate choice of days when she had to witness the Clegane incident. I always thought it odd that the boys weren't fostered, but since Robb was the heir, he wouldn't have been and Ned would have kept Jon close too. That leaves Bran and Rickon and I think that was Cat's doing that they were not fostered...the northmen did foster...since the Dustins fostered Roose's son, but it wasn't really commonplace. But back to the original question...I think the girls were learning a little, but not nearly enough and the oversight fell on both Ned and Cat. Cat should have known better...she was included in her father's travels and trips from a very young age and was probably privy to conversations between lords, which would have really helped both Sansa and Arya if they had been able to have that experience.

Actually Arya said that horseriding and managing a household are the only two things that Arya could do better than Sansa. Sansa was the one good with sigils.

[Aemond's Eye]

Actually, Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, with the Dustins.

So he was. It's been a while since I read the books and couldn't remember if he'd been fostered there or just spent time there.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Actually Arya said that horseriding and managing a household are the only two things that Arya could do better than Sansa. Sansa was the one good with sigils.

Thanks...I didn't have my books handy.

[ChillyPolly]

The criticism of Septa Mordaine is silly. She was a teacher of children, who taught them valuable skills, which actually helped at least one of them survive, and does not seem to have hurt the other one. Nor was she wrong. Sex roles were real in medieval times, and even if one is to rebel against them, it helps to at least know what they are.

Sansa's idealism may be related to some extent to the religious teachings of the Septa, but not entirely. Sansa also fell in love - apparently on her own steam - with the songs of a bard who came to Winterfell. In any event, I do not hold it against the Septa that she may be one source of certain ethical and moral ideals such as "the True Knight should defend the weak".

Head-in-the-clouds Sansa is in many respects her own person. Her idealistic and impractical nature (evidenced in part by the fact that she has no head for figures), is not the fault of her educators; as even the wild and rebellious Arya far excels her in that respect.

[Batbob45]

not all parents educate their daughter the same.The girl's education I think was Cat's idea since Ned let Arya learn to use a sword.. both Stannis and Lord Tarth had their daughter learn about fighting or how to goverence instead of the normal education most girls had.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

not all parents educate their daughter the same.The girl's education I think was Cat's idea since Ned let Arya learn to use a sword.. both Stannis and Lord Tarth had their daughter learn about fighting or how to goverence instead of the normal education most girls had.

Learning about governance is the standard.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I re-read that part, and the chapter after Ned, is Sansa. Septa Mordane was a terrible terrible teacher. When Sansa speaks her opinion about Ned not sending Loras and Baelish overhears, she pretty much said "don't pay attention to her, she's not supposed to speak". Then, when LF asked her about her opinion, she pretty much says "yes, Loras should have gone after Gregor because heroes and monsters", like she lives in a completely different universe from which she's totally unaware of Clegane being in fact a monstrous man who could have killed Loras and caused a rift with House Tyrell. LF just smiled, but I'm sure he later laughed his ass out, and I'm sure any other man from the court would have done the same. No wonder by the next book people believe Sansa is dumb.

And the worst thing is that Petyr caresses Sansa's face and Septa Mordane says nothing at all. Nothing. The Septa who can only speak about courtesies and proper behaviour lets slip the fact some guy touched and caressed the face of the girl under her care and she doesn't even informs her father...

[Batbob45]

Learning about governance is the standard.

not if Tywin is your dad.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

not if Tywin is your dad.

Ok, if you want gangraping your son's beloved wife and forcing him to participate to be the standard for Westerosi education...

[Batbob45]

Ok, if you want gangraping your son's beloved wife and forcing him to participate to be the standard for Westerosi education...

I alway hated Tywin for what he considers lesson for his kids and who he use as tools.

[Mithras]

So, can somebody tell me who is guilty of Sansa's lack of, well, everything?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So, can somebody tell me who is guilty of Sansa's lack of, well, everything?

Common sense? Mordane. :dunno:

[Colonel Green]

Common sense? Mordane. :dunno:

Any flaws in Sansa's education are the result of her parents, ultimately. Mordane's curriculum, as with an lessons given by Luwin, or Poole, or whoever, would be overseen by them and tailored to their specifications. If they thought she needed to be instructed in some area, or was not performing appropriately, they had ample time to assess that -- but both of them, from their POVs, considered Sansa basically the star pupil.

In truth, as far as Sansa's education goes, I don't think there was anything particularly wrong with it prior to the start of the series. She's naive, sure, but she's 11. Not a big deal. The problems start with the journey south, and particularly after the Kingsroad, where it should have been screamingly obvious that she needed special guidance, which Ned never provided. And I don't mean by this that she should have been apprised of all the stuff Ned was doing; but she needed to be oriented as to what the Stark family's position was in court, she needed to be kept away from the Lannisters' influence (when the Kingsroad clearly showed she was susceptible to it), and the urgency of the situation most definitely required her to become more realistic as far as her worldview went.

Ned did none of those things, and that comes back to bite him. Sansa's going to Cersei at the climax of AGOT is most commonly discussed in terms of how it fits into her character arc, for obvious reasons, but it's also important in Ned's arc. Ned's arc in AGOT concerns, among other things, the things he does and the things he doesn't do that bring about his own downfall. His completely ignoring Sansa's situation is one of them, whereas in the aftermath of the Kinsgroad he does a pretty good job of talking with Arya, trying to assess her emotional needs, and giving her a sense of what the family's situation is;

[Annara Snow]

Any flaws in Sansa's education are the result of her parents, ultimately. Mordane's curriculum, as with an lessons given by Luwin, or Poole, or whoever, would be overseen by them and tailored to their specifications. If they thought she needed to be instructed in some area, or was not performing appropriately, they had ample time to assess that -- but both of them, from their POVs, considered Sansa basically the star pupil.

In truth, as far as Sansa's education goes, I don't think there was anything particularly wrong with it prior to the start of the series. She's naive, sure, but she's 11. Not a big deal. The problems start with the journey south, and particularly after the Kingsroad, where it should have been screamingly obvious that she needed special guidance, which Ned never provided. And I don't mean by this that she should have been apprised of all the stuff Ned was doing; but she needed to be oriented as to what the Stark family's position was in court, she needed to be kept away from the Lannisters' influence (when the Kingsroad clearly showed she was susceptible to it), and the urgency of the situation most definitely required her to become more realistic as far as her worldview went.

Ah, but one of the problems was, at this point Ned wouldn't have necessarily seen it as Lannister influence. He knows that Sansa is in difficult position due to being betrothed to Joffrey, and probably he can see her fondness/growing infatuation of him (he doesn't see Cersei's influence over Sansa), but at that point he thinks that Joffrey is Robert's son. He only decides to break the betrothal and bring the girls back North once he decides he's done serving Robert as the Hand of the King, outraged over Robert's insistence on assassinating Dany.

Even when he is talking to Arya, Ned does not blame Joffrey, but Cersei and Sandor; knowing how Ned thinks of children, including younger teenagers, it makes sense that he would find excuses for Joffrey for being just 12-years old (,,,in addition to supposedly being Robert's son). Let's not forget that Ned thinks that 14-year old Daenerys is a child, and that Barra's mother is shockingly young because "she couldn't have been more than 15".

[The Evil Queen]

Cat would have had a different education in politics and military matters simply because she was alive and connected to the first war, her education in politics and warfare would have happened whether she or her father wanted it to or not.

Sansa and Arya are now getting the same education Cat got. Through experience.

Ned may not have wanted them to have such instruction for several reasons, he isn't exactly a lover of politics and obviously strives hard to keep Winterfell out of large scale politics. Then he could be thinking of the life of his sister and what happened there, if she did have more education in politics etc then considering her outcome its entirely possible Ned wouldn't want his daughters having the same education, thus the same outcome. Neds not exactly politically savvy anyways.

Thats all just assumptions, but really, experience with a previous war would taint your decisions in regards to how you train your children.

Then again, we really don't know what education they did get, they could have had more than we know about but because of their personalities they didn't really grasp what they were being taught. Arya is interested in swordplay but not military matters. Sansa is interested heroes, so even if taught otherwise she wouldn't have listened because she had no immediate reason to.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So, can somebody tell me who is guilty of Sansa's lack of, well, everything?

What lack?

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with Sansa's education or knowledge. Nothing at all. What she lacks is advance knowledge of Ned committing "treason" against Joffrey.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Then again, we really don't know what education they did get

This. There are a few things mentioned however we don't know what is normal for Westeros and what was taught to these kids. Just a great deal of speculation.

[ChillyPolly]

I re-read that part, and the chapter after Ned, is Sansa. Septa Mordane was a terrible terrible teacher. When Sansa speaks her opinion about Ned not sending Loras and Baelish overhears, she pretty much said "don't pay attention to her, she's not supposed to speak". Then, when LF asked her about her opinion, she pretty much says "yes, Loras should have gone after Gregor because heroes and monsters", like she lives in a completely different universe from which she's totally unaware of Clegane being in fact a monstrous man who could have killed Loras and caused a rift with House Tyrell. LF just smiled, but I'm sure he later laughed his ass out, and I'm sure any other man from the court would have done the same. No wonder by the next book people believe Sansa is dumb.

And the worst thing is that Petyr caresses Sansa's face and Septa Mordane says nothing at all. Nothing. The Septa who can only speak about courtesies and proper behaviour lets slip the fact some guy touched and caressed the face of the girl under her care and she doesn't even informs her father...

I don't understand the criticism here. On the one hand, you seem to be criticizing Mordane for trying to step between Sansa and Petyr and discourage their conversation during a later meeting, and then you are trying to criticize her for NOT stepping between them by raising an over-the-top howl and stink merely because he briefly brushed her hair with his fingers at their first meeting. Nor have you any reason to assume Mordane expressed no concerns to Ned (assuming it was sufficiently obvious that anything was wrong, which is by no means clear to me).

Petyr has yet to seriously molest Sansa, and I hope he never will. But if he does, surely the last person who deserves blame is the poor woman whose head got mounted on a spike years before it happened.

[Annara Snow]

I don't understand the criticism here. On the one hand, you seem to be criticizing Mordane for trying to step between Sansa and Petyr and discourage their conversation during a later meeting, and then you are trying to criticize her for NOT stepping between them by raising an over-the-top howl and stink merely because he briefly brushed her hair with his fingers at their first meeting. Nor have you any reason to assume Mordane expressed no concerns to Ned (assuming it was sufficiently obvious that anything was wrong, which is by no means clear to me).

Petyr has yet to seriously molest Sansa, and I hope he never will. But if he does, surely the last person who deserves blame is the poor woman whose head got mounted on a spike years before it happened.

Sorry, what?

[ChillyPolly]

Sorry, what?

Relatively. So far, Littlefinger's been out-Sansa-molested by Joffrey, Tyrion, Marillon and Sweetrobin. Perhaps Sandor too, if we give extra-credit for death threats.