Septa Mordane and the education of the Stark girls

[jarl the climber]

Why do you assume Septa Mordane to be lowborn? She could as well be Lord Manderly's niece. Or Lord Mallister's bastard daughter.

I think I'm sort of channeling the TV show. At one point she starts telling Sansa that she is from a small village before Sansa tells her to shut up. Your right she might not be but probably she is of low or middling birth.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Politics and everything it entailed was Maester Luwin's job, and to a certain extent that of Vayon Poole. Septa Mordane was just the specialist for courtly manners (and swaddling them a couple years ago).

This seems to be the way of it although I'd say Luwin taught them about history and math. I don't know if girls are taught very much about politics even with the understanding that they might be stepping up if their husbands were gone. It seems that the assumption is while the lady of the house is in charge, she is advised by the maester and master of arms. No girl in the text is shown being trained to rule, not even Shireen, so it's hard to say that's what is happening. And yes, the septa is more of a governess when the children are young and is in charge of the "womanly" arts.

Despite the fact that Ned does rely a lot on his wife's counsels, I don't know that he really is aware that she should be receiving political education. He never evinces any belief that Sansa needs to know anything about politics; he wants her to be an obedient girl who knows how to host a function and raises her husband's children. If he thought she needed to know stuff like that, he would have seen to it. He didn't, which is one of the things that does him in.

This has always troubled me because when they leave for King's Landing, she is betrothed to the crown prince. While he would not have expect Sansa to actually rule, he should have expected that she would need to know more about politics than if she were betrothed to a lord of the North. After all, she might have had to be a Regent for her son. It's really confusing to understand why he wouldn't have found someone to help her learn about this new world.

The thing wee have to keep in mid about Cat is that she was the eldest child and she was the heir for a time. Her Mother had problems giving birth and died at a relatively young age and Cat as the eldest had to pick up the slack. Also between her, Edmure and Lysa, Cat was probably the most able and she seemed to be well aware of this and so did her Father. So I think her daughters grew up in a different situation.

This is said often as to why Cat is politically astute but Edmure was born when Cat was 8. I would venture that when actual instruction in politics would have begun it would have been after Edmure was born already and as the male heir had finally arrived, Cat wouldn't have gotten much instruction in leading after the age of 9 or 10. It does seem, however, that she did learn a great deal about politics but there is little in the text to support any formal training. She seems to have picked it up from what was happening around her at Riverrun and Winterfell.

[Aemond's Eye]

Maybe that's exactly why he didn't foster them.

Perhaps Ned wanted to see his sons grow up. Consider what happened with his own father.

Ned got fostered and spent a good deal of time away and his dad died before he got to know him as an adult.

Plus Ned was the second son - Brandon, on the other hand, remained in Winterfell.

Ned originally planned on taking Bran to KL, where he'd likely serve as a squire. That'd leave Robb (the heir) and Rickon (too young). He was even going to leave Jon had he not joined the Watch, as KL was likely too close for comfort in Ned's eyes. (I imagine Jon was never fostered so that Ned could ensure no Lord that took him as a ward could begin to suspect about his parentage, and so that he and Robb would grow up as brothers.)

[Florina Laufeyson]

Bastards dont get fostered anyway. Not really anyway. He could squire but thats about it.

It's really confusing to understand why he wouldn't have found someone to help her learn about this new world.

I think Ned figured that being in KL itself and seeing things and perhaps being under the queen's wing would actually educate Sansa enough.

[Colonel Green]

I think Ned figured that being in KL itself and seeing things and perhaps being under the queen's wing would actually educate Sansa enough.

Considering that Ned was going south for the purpose of investigating said queen for murder, and that on the way there she had pretty clearly demonstrated herself to be hostile to the family, that would have been a pretty questionable assumption, if true.

But of course, that's a whole different can of worms; namely, that Ned lets Sansa fall completely into the queen's orbit and does absolutely nothing to guide or prepare her for the shitstorm that he knows is about to break, one way or another, until it's far too late.

[Aemond's Eye]

Bastards dont get fostered anyway. Not really anyway. He could squire but thats about it.

I really don't think Ned would have struggled to find a vassal more than willing to take Jon into their household as "Ned Stark's son" rather than "bastard". Sure, there are also lords who would not have, but I dare say that a fair few would have been happy to.

[Colonel Green]

Larence Snow, the illegitimate son of Lord Halys Hornwood, was fostered at Deepwood Motte under the guardianship of House Glover, and there are no close blood ties between those houses that we know of. Ned unquestionably could have had Jon fostered at White Harbour or, well, pretty much anywhere, had he wanted.

[Mithras]

So, is Ned guilty of not teaching Sansa high politics at the age of 11 (assuming that he knows the stuff)?

BTW, sigils are extremely important and so is the history.

Egg and Aemon played the Battle of Redgrass Field on desk many times and Egg was able tell that the gathering at Whitewalls was a Blackfyre party just from the sigils and history.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's actually not true. He had nothing to do with Sansa being there, and is angry that she is, thinking the stuff about Clegane unfit for her to hear.

He was angry she was present there actually, it wasn't his idea and he felt it wasn't proper for a girl to hear the story of the carnage caused by Gregor and his men.

Just reread that part. I have the spanish version now, so I can't quote, but it goes something like "He looked at the Septa, who was with her daughter. He felt angry: that wasn't a proper place for a girl. But the septa couldn't have imagined that the audience would be more than hear petitions, end fights...".

The mention of the septa not imagining how the Audience would change kinda hints that, in better circumstances, he wouldn't be mad by Sansa's presence there.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

What I find strange is that the got a septa, despite the fact that the kids were raised under the faith of the Old Gods.

There Mother, Catelyn was "of the Faith." Ned had a sept built for her. He kept the Old Gods.

[Annara Snow]

Something else that always struck me as odd about the Stark kids upbringing is that Ned and Cat didn't foster Rob and, or Bran with another house.

Even Ned himself was fostered.

There's nothing to suggest that fostering children with other houses is a part of Stark tradition or that most of the lords did that - and even if they did, it certainly wouldn't be in the South. Rickard did a lot of stuff that was not typical of Starks, like betrothing his children to members of southron Great Houses (and not followers of Old Gods) or fostering his son at the Vale with another Lord Paramount - because Rickard was very interested in gaining support of other Great Houses and getting involved in southron politics. Something Ned didn't really care about.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Me too thought that the weird thing is: they got a septa. But as we know Rickard's maester was born in the Reach and he proposed Rickard to marry his sons with Southern girls, so this is how Brandon was engaged with Cat. And probably Ned didn't want problems with Cat, so let a septa to teach their girls.

But I don't think that a septa or anyone should teach politics and wars to girls. Most of the girls are supposed to marry, give birth to children, raise the children,obey their husbands and then die. They are like commercial products with what the Lords make business (no offense).

[Annara Snow]

Well, come to think of it, isn't it ironic that the Westerosi nobility have septas teaching girls about things like marriage, having kids and living the life of a lady of the household? She's essentially teaching them about things she has absolutely no experience with.

[sarah.jenice]

Maybe that's exactly why he didn't foster them.

Perhaps Ned wanted to see his sons grow up. Consider what happened with his own father.

Ned got fostered and spent a good deal of time away and his dad died before he got to know him as an adult.

Good point.

I agree that Maester Luwin took part in their education too. Maybe Ned planned to send them to Pycelle but changed his mind when he got to know him better. If Bran would have gone, he would have needed to train with the Master at Arms so they must have had some kind of education plan.

Also, we dont see every minute of every day for any character so they probably do all sorts of things GRRM didn't think were important enough to include.

[Pikachu101]

I think people are forgetting that Sansa's eleven and Arya's nine, they're too young to be taught politics.

Maybe Cat was waiting for her daughters to flower before she starts educating them in the ways of law and governance?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think I'm sort of channeling the TV show. At one point she starts telling Sansa that she is from a small village before Sansa tells her to shut up. Your right she might not be but probably she is of low or middling birth.

Exceedingly unlikely. Birth matters, in the Faith, in the Citadel and in the Watch.

This seems to be the way of it although I'd say Luwin taught them about history and math. I don't know if girls are taught very much about politics even with the understanding that they might be stepping up if their husbands were gone. It seems that the assumption is while the lady of the house is in charge, she is advised by the maester and master of arms. No girl in the text is shown being trained to rule, not even Shireen, so it's hard to say that's what is happening. And yes, the septa is more of a governess when the children are young and is in charge of the "womanly" arts.

History is politics and math is economics/fiscal policy.

Furthermore, we actually are shown Shireen being trained to rule, sharing lessons with the heir of Lord Seaworth and Edric Storm.

Plus Ned was the second son - Brandon, on the other hand, remained in Winterfell.

Actually, Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, with the Dustins.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Furthermore, we actually are shown Shireen being trained to rule, sharing lessons with the heir of Lord Seaworth and Edric Storm.

The mere fact that Edric was present shows that they were not being trained to rule. They were probably receiving lessons similar to the lessons Sansa got from Luwen.

History is politics and math is economics/fiscal policy.

I believe a simple history lesson would be very different than lessons in governing that an heir would receive. Ned taking the boys to watch the "trial" and sentencing of the Watch deserter is a good example of this. Sansa and Arya were not included. Likewise, we never see Shireen around her father when he is "working" or even around her mother when she is meeting with people. Even Cersei was brought to court so she could catch the eye of the prince not so she could learn about politics and governing. Might be an oversight of Martin but these girls are glaringly not being taught to rule.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The mere fact that Edric was present shows that they were not being trained to rule. They were probably receiving lessons similar to the lessons Sansa got from Luwen.

Edric would be expected to receive a knighthood and serve as a household knight, castellan or maybe get some lands of his own in time. He'd get those lessons, same as Bran or Jon Snow. And of course they received lessons similar to those Sansa received. Ruling 101.

I believe a simple history lesson would be very different than lessons in governing that an heir would receive. Ned taking the boys to watch the "trial" and sentencing of the Watch deserter is a good example of this. Sansa and Arya were not included. Likewise, we never see Shireen around her father when he is "working" or even around her mother when she is meeting with people. Even Cersei was brought to court so she could catch the eye of the prince not so she could learn about politics and governing. Might be an oversight of Martin but these girls are glaringly not being taught to rule.

Quite the opposite. History lessons are recent politics and damn important. Don't forget that heads of states don't change every 4 or 5 years, they last a generation and personally educate the next.

Capital punishment on the other hand is something for boys. Because they got the swords and are expected to use them.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Seems like Arya remembers that Sansa was good at sums and would manage a budget well (while she wouldn't) so they were getting some sort of education in castle management. Arya was fairly good at recognizing sigils as she was on the run too. Not perfect, but she knew the majority of them. She also had some sort of idea of which northmen that might help her. While there was a definite divide in what the boys were learning and what the girls were, it seems that Bran was just starting to be included in 'manly' activities.I think their ages have a lot to do with their education, but I also think that Ned was derelict in giving the girls guidance in courtly activities at Kings Landing...granted, things moved pretty fast and he was swamped with other concerns, but it seems that the girls were pretty much adrift there. I think the septa was trying to educate Sansa the day she took her to court, but it was just an unfortunate choice of days when she had to witness the Clegane incident. I always thought it odd that the boys weren't fostered, but since Robb was the heir, he wouldn't have been and Ned would have kept Jon close too. That leaves Bran and Rickon and I think that was Cat's doing that they were not fostered...the northmen did foster...since the Dustins fostered Roose's son, but it wasn't really commonplace. But back to the original question...I think the girls were learning a little, but not nearly enough and the oversight fell on both Ned and Cat. Cat should have known better...she was included in her father's travels and trips from a very young age and was probably privy to conversations between lords, which would have really helped both Sansa and Arya if they had been able to have that experience.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Like the two trips of Ned to White Harbour at least Arya accompanied him on?

Or the unmentioned other business trips where she and her siblings participated?