Septa Mordane and the education of the Stark girls

[jarl the climber]

Exceedingly unlikely. Birth matters, in the Faith, in the Citadel and in the Watch.

We really do not know her background. I also don't think Winterfell would have been considered a choice assignment, it didn't even have a Sept til one was built for Catelyn. The castle itself is remote and has few luxuries, even singers are uncommon. The chances are she came from White Harbor like Chayle, its still a guess. IMO when Catelyn sent to the Faith for a Septa, if she didn't all ready have a specific one in mind, there weren't people standing in line for the job and ability probably counted for more than birth. Septas do make up some the Most Devout, the members of the Faith who select the High Septon, so if your a highborn, KL and Oldtown would be plum assignments, so would Highgarden, Lannisport and places like that, Winterfell would be akin to exile, it would likely be considered a tough assignment, so bear that in mind.

Expanding on that a bit I think its fair to say that Mordanes mission to Winterfell would have been seen as a great sucsess within her order. Her charge Sansa was to be the future Queen. Whatever trepidations she may have had about Winterfell were probably quickly put aside, Lord Stark was everything you would want a great Lord to be except for his religion(from her perspective), if there were problems in the realm, he was the right man to deal with it. I'm sure she passed this along to her superiors at the Great Sept of Baelor. I don't think her execution was particularly smart from a political point of view. I do think the current HS knows who she was and what happened to her.

[Annara Snow]

Relatively. So far, Littlefinger's been out-Sansa-molested by Joffrey, Tyrion, Marillon and Sweetrobin. Perhaps Sandor too, if we give extra-credit for death threats.

Even Sweetrobin has molested Sansa more than LF? Really? How exactly did he do that?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We really do not know her background. I also don't think Winterfell would have been considered a choice assignment, it didn't even have a Sept til one was built for Catelyn. The castle itself is remote and has few luxuries, even singers are uncommon. The chances are she came from White Harbor like Chayle, its still a guess. IMO when Catelyn sent to the Faith for a Septa, if she didn't all ready have a specific one in mind, there weren't people standing in line for the job and ability probably counted for more than birth. Septas do make up some the Most Devout, the members of the Faith who select the High Septon, so if your a highborn, KL and Oldtown would be plum assignments, so would Highgarden, Lannisport and places like that, Winterfell would be akin to exile, it would likely be considered a tough assignment, so bear that in mind.

Winterfell is the seat of a Lord Paramount. The second, third, or fourth most powerful family in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Highest nobility there is. Sending anbody beyond a member of the (high) nobility herself would be an insult. The Faith is not that stupid.

[LordStoneheart]

Household economics. As to the former, Sansa knows some basic and who married who; this is not "politics" in any meaningful sense, given that she was never given any understanding of the actual political goings-on.

Forgive me, but what are these "political goings-on" and how can they be taught? I always see people talk about how Arya, Sansa, and Ned didn't "know politics" but what did he really not know besides not stabbing people in the back?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Forgive me, but what are these "political goings-on" and how can they be taught? I always see people talk about how Arya, Sansa, and Ned didn't "know politics" but what did he really not know besides not stabbing people in the back?

The details of LF and Varys' plans. That's it.

People really, really misjudge Ned's political aptitude.

[LordStoneheart]

The details of LF and Varys' plans. That's it.

People really, really misjudge Ned's political aptitude.

Hmm, I wonder who in Westeros does know politics then if that's the standard we hold everyone to. :)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hmm, I wonder who in Westeros does know politics then if that's the standard we hold everyone to. :)

Well, even LF and Varys themselves know only their own plans... :cool4:

Ned was a damn good politician, his success in the North shows that. His problems in KL are due to being 15 years late, everybody teaming up against him, LF masterfully playing the role of still loving Cat and therefore supporting him, Robert kicking the legs out from under Ned on a regular base and a whole bunch of absurdly bad luck.

[Hrafntýr]

Forgive me, but what are these "political goings-on" and how can they be taught? I always see people talk about how Arya, Sansa, and Ned didn't "know politics" but what did he really not know besides not stabbing people in the back?

I wouldn't argue against you, in that I think this question is one that the books invite us to consider. Young Griff's education from Tyrion and then JonConn regarding trust/mistrust may be apposite here. Mistrusting everyone may, possibly, be smart in that it will save your skin, but it will also eat you up inside and may too cause you to lose valuable opportunities that would arise by being willing to trust, and cause you to lose the loyalty of others. It seems hard to find the right balance between trust and mistrust.

I do think that Arya and Sansa's education was likely appropriate for their ages. And I think that given their ages it might have made things even worse had Ned or Cat or Mordane tried to enable Sansa and Arya to act as yet more vipers in the vipers' pit that was King's Landing. Well, maybe not worse, because it's hard to imagine things being worse, but hardly better. The Northerners were outsiders entering into a context where lines of power had already been drawn, and the powerful were not going to let these outsiders threaten what they had or had planned.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I don't think it's mentioned, but I didn't read all, sorry about that.

I think Septa Mordane must be really competent because Cat say Sansa was behaving like a true lady since she was three. We don't know when was she hired, but this is quite an accomplishment.

[the storm king returns]

What I find strange is that the got a septa, despite the fact that the kids were raised under the faith of the Old Gods.

The Stark kids were raised to worship the old gods and the new

[ChillyPolly]

Even Sweetrobin has molested Sansa more than LF? Really? How exactly did he do that?

Just a little humor about the breastfeeding incident.

[jarl the climber]

Winterfell is the seat of a Lord Paramount. The second, third, or fourth most powerful family in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Highest nobility there is. Sending anbody beyond a member of the (high) nobility herself would be an insult. The Faith is not that stupid.

Why, would the Starks really care if she is highborn? Would it score points with Ned or Cat? Why would it be an insult if she was capable in every other way? Show me one thing from the text that confirms that she is highborn.

[Pod The Impaler]

I was rereading AGOT recently and it struck me that Septa Mordane seems a really strange choice for the position of a main tutor of the Stark girls given Ned and Cat's personalities and views. Mordane is all about "Look pretty, mind your courtesies, obey your father (later husband) unquestionably" and doesn't seem to have taught the girls anything substantial about politics or governing. Yes, it's a highly patriarchal culture, but still noblewomen tend to have more responsibilities than just being a charming hostess of social events and giving birth to heirs, and Ned and Cat are well aware of that.

Not only that, but Ned is shown to value highly Cat's advice on political matters and and shows total trust in her abilities in this ability a number of times in AGOT. He left her in charge of the North when he left for the capital and relied on her to finish Robb's education as a ruler. Catelyn herself is never shy of offering her opinion to Ned or Robb and even scolded the kings Renly and Stannis a few times. She definitely doesn't subscribe to the idea that a noble woman should leave all the politics and governing stuff to the men and that being pretty and courteous is enough for her. She and Ned knew that women ruling in their husband's name temporarily while he's away or as their minor son's regent isn't uncommon in Westeros. Given all that, Sansa and Arya's unpreparedness doesn't make much sense to me. Yes, they were quite young, but in this series 11 is like 13-14 in the real world. And Ned was someone who thought Bran was old enough to see an execution before she was 7 and Rickon at 3 was old enough to take care of a freaking direwolf.

Yet the girls' main tutor is someone who teaches them "womanly arts" and courtesy exclusively and doesn't seem to have a clue about politics and governing. Even after arranging Sansa's engagement to the crown prince Ned never made an effort to either teach her that himself or find someone else to do it.

I figured that this was all a compromise with Catelyn / the Tullys. Just part of the "deal" of marriage.

Catelyn had a small sept built by Ned for her (which is actually more of a big deal than one septa), so it stands to reason that she had another concession or two to southron customs.

Catelyn was actually quite an active mother, that is clear in the text, so the idea that Septa Mordane was "raising" the girls is nonsense. Septa Mordane plays a role in Sansa and Arya's education, but you don't hear of her having any role with Robb, Bran, or Rickon. Basically, she's a governess / tutor, helping Cat out in teaching certain skills and southron social graces to her daughters. And I suspect at least an education about the Seven, something Sansa apparently took to heart more than Arya.

Which is not to say that northern girls do not learn a lot of the same skills, but I think it is more a matter of attitude and prospects. There may have been some ambitions at work, that one or both of her daughters might go on to serve at a southron court (perhaps the royal court), as a prelude to marriage outside the North.

Here's another thing that might be a motivator: Lyanna Stark. Perhaps Catelyn feared her daughters might turn out wild as well, and meet a bad end. One daughter became the perfect model of beauty, grace and charm, while the other turned out so much like Lyanna it's eerie.

As far as the need for ladies in waiting in the Stark household, the Cassels and Pooles are their subordinates, and many others besides, but I doubt that in the North they lay it on thick with several tiers of courtiers. The North is notably austere, even the capital of the North. The Starks employed a core household of: 1 maester, 1 septa, 1 steward, 1 master-at-arms, 1 Old Nan (whom I assume is primarily a midwife). They seemed to have just enough to keep Winterfell running as a home and a fortress. The septa is basically a luxury.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Why, would the Starks really care if she is highborn? Would it score points with Ned or Cat? Why would it be an insult if she was capable in every other way? Show me one thing from the text that confirms that she is highborn.

Because they are nobles. Same as their bannermen, who wouldn't respect them if they were taught by some bumpkin. The idea of sending the Starks somebody lowborn wouldn't even occur to the Faith.

Just look at Pycelle's replacement.for an example of an apparently purely meritocratic order sending somebody to take a place at a noble court: "After considering the cordwainer's son and the hedge knight's bastard to show that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Archmaesters choose a Tyrell of Highgarden."

Similar with the NW. Every serious contender for Lord Commander was a noble or a noble's bastard. Same as every former LC known by name.

[jarl the climber]

Because they are nobles. Same as their bannermen, who wouldn't respect them if they were taught by some bumpkin. The idea of sending the Starks somebody lowborn wouldn't even occur to the Faith.

Just look at Pycelle's replacement.for an example of an apparently purely meritocratic order sending somebody to take a place at a noble court: "After considering the cordwainer's son and the hedge knight's bastard to show that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Archmaesters choose a Tyrell of Highgarden."

Similar with the NW. Every serious contender for Lord Commander was a noble or a noble's bastard. Same as every former LC known by name.

Were talking about the Septa of Winterfell not the the leader of an organization. As David Selig points out Mordane seemed to lack any understanding of politics, she didn't instruct the girls in such things. This argues against her being highborn. Still I don't see why someone of a modest would not be qualified if they had the proper training.

As far as I can see is that up until recently the Faith cared more about coin than politics. That outside of White Harbor the North probably has not provided very much revenue to the Faiths coffers historicaly. Sure they would send someone competent but I honestly don't think that highborn members of the Faith would be lining up to go like Pod pointed out the conditions at Winterfell are very austere, most of the inhabitants worship other Gods, there aren't other Septas there just a single Septon and a small Sept.

[Luddagain]

Look I think the kids got education from many sources.

Obviously master Luwin taught them ALL maths, histroy, reading writing etc.

Ser Rodrick taught the boys fighting skills

Hurin taught them all riding

Old Nan taught them legend

Septa Mordane's role was to teach them about the faith and presumably the ways of the court and various "womanly arts."

However I think GRRM did make a few biggish mistakes in GoT.

1. Cat should have had some Ladies in Waiting and some other girls of Sansa and Arya's age around.

2. Sending Arya to KL was crazy - she should have gone to the Manderleys where she could have got a bit of polish but still been liked and admired.

3. It is totally UNBELIEVABLE that Ned and Cat had not previously discussed marriage options for the girls and Robb - Bran a bit young. Now Joffrey was an obvious possible choice for Sansa as was Myrcella for Robb and it is surprising that it was not discussed. If Ned/Cat were halfway rational parents they would ALREADY have had out feelers for suitable boys/girls. They would already have had reports on Joffrey from Lyssa, Jon Arryn etc ie to find out tactfully what kind of boy he was. Catelyn should have been sent with Sansa for a visit to the Riverlands/KL say when she was 9/10 to check out the likely lads and lasses.

[Luddagain]

As to the fostering of the boys - it is strange but I guess that for whatever reason Jon HAD to stay at Winterfell - promise to Lyanna, fear of his identity being discovered, or some type of tradition about bastards - whatever, if Jon stayed there was no way Cat would let Robb go. Mind you I am surprised Robb and sansa had not paid a visit to Riverrun.

[voodooqueen126]

We really do not know her background. I also don't think Winterfell would have been considered a choice assignment, it didn't even have a Sept til one was built for Catelyn. The castle itself is remote and has few luxuries, even singers are uncommon. The chances are she came from White Harbor like Chayle, its still a guess. IMO when Catelyn sent to the Faith for a Septa, if she didn't all ready have a specific one in mind, there weren't people standing in line for the job and ability probably counted for more than birth. Septas do make up some the Most Devout, the members of the Faith who select the High Septon, so if your a highborn, KL and Oldtown would be plum assignments, so would Highgarden, Lannisport and places like that, Winterfell would be akin to exile, it would likely be considered a tough assignment, so bear that in mind.

Expanding on that a bit I think its fair to say that Mordanes mission to Winterfell would have been seen as a great sucsess within her order. Her charge Sansa was to be the future Queen. Whatever trepidations she may have had about Winterfell were probably quickly put aside, Lord Stark was everything you would want a great Lord to be except for his religion(from her perspective), if there were problems in the realm, he was the right man to deal with it. I'm sure she passed this along to her superiors at the Great Sept of Baelor. I don't think her execution was particularly smart from a political point of view. I do think the current HS knows who she was and what happened to her.

Before I lost my old data, I had been writing a piece of fanfiction, one of the characters was Septa Mordane, and she writes back and forth to her friends (one of whom rises to become AFFC's Septa Unella). Sigh.

I would say the missing girls of ASOIAF is a problem: Sansa has like 2 friends, Catelyn has no ladies in waiting, neither does Cersei until AFFC... It's like GRRM didn't think "Septa Mordane probably had atleast one friend whom she wrote to and who would care about her murder"

[naseridrl]

The lack of ladies in waiting and kids fostered at Winterfell is an issue. It means that it made the Starks seem so very isolated. The girls needed people to bridge the gap between them. And Cat was a very high ranking lady, by birth and marriage, she should have had ladies with her. There should have been boys fostered there as squires people like Cley Cerwyn etc, and there should have been girls at Winterfell to make friends with the Stark girls and hopefully to catch Robb's eye, or even a visiting Bannerman's heir's eye.

[Roose on the Loose]

Ned and Cat made a separate peace in the War of the Sexes, but I don't know that they had a vocabulary to express who they were to each other. On paper Ned was Lord and Master, but over time he learned to listen to his wife. But I never got the impression that they were about to start a cultural revolution by teaching their children to have similar marriages.

I know LF is a horrible person, but he is willing to teach statecraft to a girl.