Septa Mordane and the education of the Stark girls

[David Selig]

I was rereading AGOT recently and it struck me that Septa Mordane seems a really strange choice for the position of a main tutor of the Stark girls given Ned and Cat's personalities and views. Mordane is all about "Look pretty, mind your courtesies, obey your father (later husband) unquestionably" and doesn't seem to have taught the girls anything substantial about politics or governing. Yes, it's a highly patriarchal culture, but still noblewomen tend to have more responsibilities than just being a charming hostess of social events and giving birth to heirs, and Ned and Cat are well aware of that.

Not only that, but Ned is shown to value highly Cat's advice on political matters and and shows total trust in her abilities in this ability a number of times in AGOT. He left her in charge of the North when he left for the capital and relied on her to finish Robb's education as a ruler. Catelyn herself is never shy of offering her opinion to Ned or Robb and even scolded the kings Renly and Stannis a few times. She definitely doesn't subscribe to the idea that a noble woman should leave all the politics and governing stuff to the men and that being pretty and courteous is enough for her. She and Ned knew that women ruling in their husband's name temporarily while he's away or as their minor son's regent isn't uncommon in Westeros. Given all that, Sansa and Arya's unpreparedness doesn't make much sense to me. Yes, they were quite young, but in this series 11 is like 13-14 in the real world. And Ned was someone who thought Bran was old enough to see an execution before she was 7 and Rickon at 3 was old enough to take care of a freaking direwolf.

Yet the girls' main tutor is someone who teaches them "womanly arts" and courtesy exclusively and doesn't seem to have a clue about politics and governing. Even after arranging Sansa's engagement to the crown prince Ned never made an effort to either teach her that himself or find someone else to do it.

[TimJames]

What I find strange is that the got a septa, despite the fact that the kids were raised under the faith of the Old Gods.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I suppose that the Maesters are also involved in the education of the girls, as Arya mentions they are taught "maths". Their education was interrupted. To be fair, they were still young. Sansa hadn't even flowered yet, and if it hadn't been for Robert's arrival, she wasn't going to be betrothed yet.

And Ned did bring Sansa to court to learn (it's during the audience in which he receives the Riverlords).

[David Selig]

What I find strange is that the got a septa, despite the fact that the kids were raised under the faith of the Old Gods.

They were also taught to follow the Faith (apparently following both is possible somehow in Westeros), so it makes sense.

And Ned did bring Sansa to court to learn (it's during the audience in which he receives the Riverlords).

He was angry she was present there actually, it wasn't his idea and he felt it wasn't proper for a girl to hear the story of the carnage caused by Gregor and his men.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Politics and everything it entailed was Maester Luwin's job, and to a certain extent that of Vayon Poole. Septa Mordane was just the specialist for courtly manners (and swaddling them a couple years ago).

Her role is more pronounced because of the long travel time to KL and the fact that Grand Maester Pycelle didn't take on Luwin's duties, but her role is actually rather limited.

[Colonel Green]

And Ned did bring Sansa to court to learn (it's during the audience in which he receives the Riverlords).

That's actually not true. He had nothing to do with Sansa being there, and is angry that she is, thinking the stuff about Clegane unfit for her to hear.

Yes, it's a highly patriarchal culture, but still noblewomen tend to have more responsibilities than just being a charming hostess of social events and giving birth to heirs, and Ned and Cat are well aware of that.

Despite the fact that Ned does rely a lot on his wife's counsels, I don't know that he really is aware that she should be receiving political education. He never evinces any belief that Sansa needs to know anything about politics; he wants her to be an obedient girl who knows how to host a function and raises her husband's children. If he thought she needed to know stuff like that, he would have seen to it. He didn't, which is one of the things that does him in.

[AliceRose]

There is a good discussion about Septa Mordane: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69881-septa-mordane-worst-teacher-in-westeros/

[WeaselPie]

Given their concerns about appearances in the very beginning of book one in GoT - there are many examples but I don't have my book with me - it's not surprising they would want their children to seem traditionally raised.

We have several major lessons about noble children who grow up to be what is NOT expected. Sam for one.

And more importantly Lyanna. Ned only gives in to Arya's nature when he realizes he cannot fight it, yet hires a "dancing master" to try to save face a little.

[Hrafntýr]

Interesting topic!

Doesn't Sansa show familiarity with a whole range of sigils at the Hand's Tourney? This might suggest that she'd had at least some education in the politics of the realm, though admittedly she could have picked some of that up after she left Winterfell. I agree with those who suggest that the girls also received some education from Luwin. A parallel might be Aegon's education, with the Halfmaester providing his education in the academic disciplines, and Septa Lemore providing his education in matters of the faith and "character."

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The training the girls would learn would be similar to what the boys would learn with the exception of Warcraft for boys and Domestic Craft for girls .

[jarl the climber]

The thing wee have to keep in mid about Cat is that she was the eldest child and she was the heir for a time. Her Mother had problems giving birth and died at a relatively young age and Cat as the eldest had to pick up the slack. Also between her, Edmure and Lysa, Cat was probably the most able and she seemed to be well aware of this and so did her Father. So I think her daughters grew up in a different situation.

Having said that I do think it was sort of foolish that Sansa and Arya were sent to KL with the Septa being in charge of her. Martin has noted that he caught some flack for Cat not having ladies in waiting and rightfully so. How can you have this lowborn Septa be in charge of these two highborn girls? It would have made much more sense to send someone like Lady Dustin with them. Or maybe not send them to KL at all. Maybe send them to the Vale and their Aunt Lysa for a time considering the possible danger to them in KL.

[Colonel Green]

Doesn't Sansa show familiarity with a whole range of sigils at the Hand's Tourney? This might suggest that she'd had at least some education in the politics of the realm, though admittedly she could have picked some of that up after she left Winterfell.

I don't think sigils really constitutes "political education" in a meaningful sense. She can identify some of the major houses, but she doesn't even know that her father doesn't like House Lannister, so the would tend to belie the idea that she was given any sense of politics.

Or maybe not send them to KL at all. Maybe send them to the Vale and their Aunt Lysa for a time considering the possible danger to them in KL.

Sansa, as the crown prince's betrothed, pretty much had to come.

That Ned didn't use Bran's fall as a pretext to avoid taking Arya never made much sense to me, frankly. He really doesn't seem to realize that the girls being in the city is a dangerous thing until it's way, way too late.

[Dragon Seed]

Something else that always struck me as odd about the Stark kids upbringing is that Ned and Cat didn't foster Rob and, or Bran with another house.

Even Ned himself was fostered.

[King of Swords]

Even Ned himself was fostered.

Maybe that's exactly why he didn't foster them.

Perhaps Ned wanted to see his sons grow up. Consider what happened with his own father.

Ned got fostered and spent a good deal of time away and his dad died before he got to know him as an adult.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Septa Mordane seems at least a little bit knowledgeable regarding who's who, and so is Sansa (Arya seems more interesting in shooing horses and whatnot).

"I am Ser Barristan Selmy, of the Kingsguard." He bowed.
Sansa knew the name, and now the courtesies that Septa Mordane had taught her over the years came back to her. "The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard," she said, "and councillor to Robert our king and to Aerys Targaryen before him. The honor is mine, good knight. Even in the far north, the singers praise the deeds of Barristan the Bold." That's a little bit more beyond a curtsy and "pleased to meet you".

"Septa Mordane pointed out Lord Jason Mallister, in indigo chased with silver, the wings of an eagle on his helm. He had cut down three of Rhaegar’s bannermen on the Trident." (Is the latter sentence a paraphrase of what the septa said at that exact moment, or something that Sansa had learned earlier? Unclear. But either way, the girl isn't uneducated in politics and most recent history.)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Having said that I do think it was sort of foolish that Sansa and Arya were sent to KL with the Septa being in charge of her. Martin has noted that he caught some flack for Cat not having ladies in waiting and rightfully so. How can you have this lowborn Septa be in charge of these two highborn girls? It would have made much more sense to send someone like Lady Dustin with them. Or maybe not send them to KL at all. Maybe send them to the Vale and their Aunt Lysa for a time considering the possible danger to them in KL.

Why do you assume Septa Mordane to be lowborn? She could as well be Lord Manderly's niece. Or Lord Mallister's bastard daughter.

I don't think sigils really constitutes "political education" in a meaningful sense. She can identify some of the major houses, but she doesn't even know that her father doesn't like House Lannister, so the would tend to belie the idea that she was given any sense of politics.

She knows about the recent actions of House members, marriage alliances and interests. And Arya talks about the economics lessons they both received from Vayon Poole.

The fact that Ned disliked House Lannister is something he kept from everybody but Cat. Not even Robb knew.

[Colonel Green]

She knows about the recent actions of House members, marriage alliances and interests. And Arya talks about the economics lessons they both received from Vayon Poole.

Household economics. As to the former, Sansa knows some basic and who married who; this is not "politics" in any meaningful sense, given that she was never given any understanding of the actual political goings-on.

[Lord Lannister]

Septa Mordane's job was to teach the girls about womanly arts as you said. Forbid Ned brings in someone else... say Maester Luwin to teach them about politics.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I think part fit was sort of like a charm school thing.

Although female nobles can be cunning and shrewd politicians in Westeros, it isn't viewed as ideal for young women to be thinking about that.

What was terribly important for both Ned and Cat was that their daughters be pretty and lady like, so they can land and impress a good and proper husband and just be a noble lady.

She was sort of like a "Ms. Manners." My mother tells me that the nuns at her Catholic girls high school were sure to try and teach her and her friends manners etc.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Household economics. As to the former, Sansa knows some basic and who married who; this is not "politics" in any meaningful sense, given that she was never given any understanding of the actual political goings-on.

"Household" economics as in an Household encompassing the entire North. Feudalism doesn't differentiate between the Lord's (or Lady's) private purse and

a state budget.

At the same time, Sansa was eleven when her teaching was stopped. She got the basics and the non-dangerous stuff. Dangerous secrets were kept secret for a reason. Just look at Doran and Arianne. The latter is 24 and wasn't told these secrets. Nor was Quentyn, for that matter.