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R+L=J v.124

Jon Weirgaryen

By Jon Weirgaryen,
in General (ASoIaF)

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BearQueen87 Council Member

BearQueen87

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:P

And not to be contrary about this, but Martin isn't done yet.

And he said once in an interview that "Robert wasn't so bad," so I just have a feeling that there could be a flashback with a caveat regarding Robert and Lyanna, as in what might her feelings have been before she found out about his babe in the Vale.

Thus far, it's only fan theory that she didn't want to marry him, or didn't like him, but yet she seemed to care about the fact he would never keep to just her bed when arranged marriages and love on the side was the norm, and not surprising just as Cersei hated Robert for whispering Lyannas name.

Is it that Lyanna cared that Robert wouldn't keep to her bed, or was she against any man that wouldn't keep to one bed. We all sorta speculate that Rhaegar would have kept to Lyanna's bed (out of love but also because he can't risk Elia's health). If Lyanna did like Robert, it was incredibly brief and ended the second she learned he had fathered bastards and saw his behavior at HH. i think it would be the hypocrisy of the situation for her. Robert could fight and joust and father as many children as he wanted without consequence, but Lyanna had no such opportunists...even if the north was more "liberal" (see: theMormont's. And this might be part of why Rhaegar's gesture did affect or touch her. Rhaegar acknowledges that Lyanna was brave like a knight, something that can't be publicly known) Her father wanted her to be a southron lady, and so, by gum, she was going to be a southron lady. That meant accepting her husbands wanderings and simply putting up with it. That wasn't a life she was inclined to accept. Had Robert not been as he was, things might have been different though I think Lyanna still would have bristled at the idea of being sold off for her father's ambitions.

And I don't think Robert was "bad." He just wasn't meant to be king. He was right, he should have taken his sword and gone across the Narrow Sea and lived his life as a sellsword. That's what he was made for, but fate chose a different path for him.

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Alia of the knife Council Member

Alia of the knife

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Is it that Lyanna cared that Robert wouldn't keep to her bed, or was she against any man that wouldn't keep to one bed. We all sorta speculate that Rhaegar would have kept to Lyanna's bed (out of love but also because he can't risk Elia's health). If Lyanna did like Robert, it was incredibly brief and ended the second she learned he had fathered bastards and saw his behavior at HH. i think it would be the hypocrisy of the situation for her. Robert could fight and joust and father as many children as he wanted without consequence, but Lyanna had no such opportunists...even if the north was more "liberal" (see: theMormont's. And this might be part of why Rhaegar's gesture did affect or touch her. Rhaegar acknowledges that Lyanna was brave like a knight, something that can't be publicly known) Her father wanted her to be a southron lady, and so, by gum, she was going to be a southron lady. That meant accepting her husbands wanderings and simply putting up with it. That wasn't a life she was inclined to accept. Had Robert not been as he was, things might have been different though I think Lyanna still would have bristled at the idea of being sold off for her father's ambitions.

And I don't think Robert was "bad." He just wasn't meant to be king. He was right, he should have taken his sword and gone across the Narrow Sea and lived his life as a sellsword. That's what he was made for, but fate chose a different path for him.

I don't think we know, but Lyanna seemed a pretty grounded person, and Brandon was her brother. In fact, she grew up with nothing but men with only Nan. I don't think they had a Septon or Septa until Cat, so I don't think the ways of men were lost on her.

There is also a Rhaegar bias, (and don't get me wrong, I tend to favor him too, but part of my "day job" is to look at everyone in a fair light because I do their reviews so really trying not to be contrary here), but it makes it hard to look objectivally at Robert and have civil discussions on fleshing out their characters more.

We know what Robert became, but what might Rhaegar have become? Ned thinks that Rhaegar would have made a better king, but he still loved Robert, loved him for remembering Lyanna, though he knew he was a womanizer, and yet he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years- just plum forgot about him.

But even Aerys was charming, handsome and the people called for him when he was young. Death has the amazing ability to romanticize a persons character, and that goes for Lyanna too, even Elia as we don't know what she might have been up to.

And as far as Elia goes, "she was frail from the first," with her health delicate when she had Rhaenys. She and Rhaegar were properties of the State, and they had one job- to keep the line going so there wouldn't be anymore succession wars and bloody civil wars as with Plantaganets and their "War of the Roses."

If Rhaegar couldn't have heirs with Elia, then her purpose as Crown Princess was kind of void, and using Lyanna as a brood mare because he couldn't do that with Elia is not exactly noble either. So in that sense Rhaegar could ill afford to be concerned with Elias health, and Elia would understand how precarious her situation would become if she couldn't bare live, healthy sons.

I'm sure that it wouldn't have taken much for Aerys to pressure Elia to "do her duty" and for it to take a toll on both Rhaegar and Elia which might be one reason they chose to reside on Dragonstone.

Martin has said that Rhaegars relationship with Elia was "complicated," so it will be interesting to see what he means by that.

Edit: As for the Lannisters, I totally agree with you about the show, but I also think the one Lannister with any potential for nobility, Jaime, they have completely botched.

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BearQueen87 Council Member

BearQueen87

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I don't think we know, but Lyanna seemed a pretty grounded person, and Brandon was her brother. In fact, she grew up with nothing but men with only Nan. I don't think they had a Septon or Septa until Cat, so I don't think the ways of men were lost on her.

But we also have no proof that Lyanna passively accepted or even just accepted Brandon's lifestyle. I think there's a difference between being grounded in your reality and simply accepting "this is the way things are." Lyanna might realize that "this" is the way of the world, but that's different from condoning it.

There is also a Rhaegar bias, (and don't get me wrong, I tend to favor him too, but part of my "day job" is to look at everyone in a fair light because I do their reviews so really trying not to be contrary here), but it makes it hard to look objectivally at Robert and have civil discussions on fleshing out their characters more

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I fully acknowledge that I am on #TeamRhaegar and have been for a long time. I don't particularly like Robert, but I also pity him. Both he and Ned should have had different lives and they got turned upside down when R and L did what they did--for whatever reason and with what ever plan they thought they concocted.

We know what Robert became, but what might Rhaegar have become? Ned thinks that Rhaegar would have made a better king, but he still loved Robert, and loved him for remembering Lyanna, though he knew he was a womanizer.

Ned loved the Robert of his youth. I think GOT shows Ned becoming disillusioned with the man Robert became. Ned was blinded by the past he and Robert shared as boys. It's human. One of the reasons why I loved Ned so much. He feels very very real to me.

And as far as Elia goes, "she was frail from the first," with her health delicate when she had Rhaenys. She and Rhaegar were properties of the State, and they had one job- to keep the line going so there wouldn't be anymore succession wars and bloody civil wars as with Plantaganets and their "War of the Roses."

Sure but they had two children by the time of L's kidnapping. And while I know that both R and L would know their "duty" I also think R was honorable enough to not risk E's life.

If Rhaegar couldn't have heirs with Elia, then her purpose as Crown Princess was kind of void, and using Lyanna as a brood mare because he couldn't do that with Elia is not exactly noble either.

Well I don't think R was using L as a brood mare. I don't think "heir and a spare" honestly factored into this for R. Prophsized savior and third head of the dragon...yes. A backup for Aegon, not so much. R wasn't thinking locally and short term, at least not mostly (yes, he was trying to take down Aerys for the safety of the realm but it also plays into preparing his three headed dragon-things for what is to come)

Martin has said that Rhaegars relationship with Elia was "complicated," so it will be interesting to see what he means by that.

Mmmh. And of course you and I have somewhat differing opinions here. :) I think Elia is going to shock the hell out of us when we learn that she knew what was going on and while she might not have been 100% okay, she was sympathetic for political and prophetic reasons.

Edit: As for the Lannisters, I totally agree with you about the show, but I also think the one Lannister with any potential for nobility, Jaime, they have completely botched.

I thought they were doing great with Jaime. His bath speech was sheer perfection and exactly what I wanted from that moment. Aaaaaaand then they had him screw Cersei in the White Tower and I almost threw my books at the TV

ETA: and now TWD is back on. Back during next commercial

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Alia of the knife Council Member

Alia of the knife

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But we also have no proof that Lyanna passively accepted or even just accepted Brandon's lifestyle. I think there's a difference between being grounded in your reality and simply accepting "this is the way things are." Lyanna might realize that "this" is the way of the world, but that's different from condoning it.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I fully acknowledge that I am on #TeamRhaegar and have been for a long time. I don't particularly like Robert, but I also pity him. Both he and Ned should have had different lives and they got turned upside down when R and L did what they did--for whatever reason and with what ever plan they thought they concocted.

Ned loved the Robert of his youth. I think GOT shows Ned becoming disillusioned with the man Robert became. Ned was blinded by the past he and Robert shared as boys. It's human. One of the reasons why I loved Ned so much. He feels very very real to me.

Sure but they had two children by the time of L's kidnapping. And while I know that both R and L would know their "duty" I also think R was honorable enough to not risk E's life.

Well I don't think R was using L as a brood mare. I don't think "heir and a spare" honestly factored into this for R. Prophsized savior and third head of the dragon...yes. A backup for Aegon, not so much. R wasn't thinking locally and short term, at least not mostly (yes, he was trying to take down Aerys for the safety of the realm but it also plays into preparing his three headed dragon-things for what is to come)

Mmmh. And of course you and I have somewhat differing opinions here. :) I think Elia is going to shock the hell out of us when we learn that she knew what was going on and while she might not have been 100% okay, she was sympathetic for political and prophetic reasons.

I thought they were doing great with Jaime. His bath speech was sheer perfection and exactly what I wanted from that moment. Aaaaaaand then they had him screw Cersei in the White Tower and I almost threw my books at the TV

ETA: and now TWD is back on. Back during next commercial

A good thing Rhaegar doesn't have to compete with Daryl Dixon, or else he'd have to pack up his harp and leave town :)

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The Twinslayer Council Member

The Twinslayer

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Oh sweet summer child. After how many threads now, do I strike you as someone who is going to suddenly crack all the pots?

Well, hope springs eternal.

Picking up on Jon's statement that marriages are matters for kings, is there anyone who really had the authority to make a marriage pact for Alys?

Her brother Harrion is Lord of Karhold. Alys is Harrion's heir. Normally, Harrion would make a marriage pact for her. But he is unavailable (prisoner of the Lannisters).

Arnolf is the castellan. Presumably, this is legitimate because Lord Rickard Karstark would have left him in charge when he marched south with Robb (just as Ned was able to make Catelyn, rather than Robb, the ruling "Stark in Winterfell" when Ned left to become Hand, and Robb had to obey Catelyn).

But does a castellan have the authority to make a marriage for the heir to the lordship? Maybe not. When Lady Horwood visits Winterfell and discusses her prospects with Rodrick Cassel, she seems to make it clear that she will wed again if Robb commands it.

The problem for the Karstarks is that the lord is just not available. Alys may have the right to refuse Arnolf's orders on this (or she may not) but she would have to appeal over Arnolf's head to Harrion or to the king.

Leading to the question -- who is the king? Harrion is at least nominally sworn to Robb. If he knew about Robb's will, that could mean that Jon is the king. But Alys does not know this. She does not appeal to Jon as Robb's heir. She appeals to him as "the last son of Eddard Stark."

Jon suggests that she take it up with Stannis but she refuses because she thinks Stannis is about to die. (Or maybe she does not want Stannis to marry her to one of his southern lords).

That just leaves Tommen. But she does not recognize Tommen as king.

So there is literally nowhere for her to turn where she can go over Arnolf's head ... Except to herself. She is the heir to Karhold, and the lord is a prisoner of the enemy. Just like Robb was heir to Winterfell when Ned was taken prisoner by the enemy. Robb pretty quickly took control away from Catelyn. He called the banners ("only the Lord can call the banners") to rescue Ned ... and they came.

I think Alys did the same thing. She took control and made her own marriage pact. And she and the Thenns are going to go home and take back her castle.

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BearQueen87 Council Member

BearQueen87

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Happy New Year's from the East coast :)

Happy New Year, fellow RLJnauts!

Just think, if TWoW does come out this year, we might just have all the answers by next New Year's Day.

You too!!

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sj4iy Council Member

sj4iy

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I'm Unsullied and have no idea what this is. I always see this thread at the top of the forum, so it seems like it's the hottest debate regarding the series?

Everything to do with Jon Snow's parentage and the possible ramifications of that. Have you come up with any idea as to who they are yet?

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Jack Bauer 24 Council Member

Jack Bauer 24

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Thanks for the quick response. Not sure if I should click that spoiler though lol. Is this the biggest reveal of all time when it happens?

Edit: No, I have no idea although I think he's somehow a Targaryen although I don't know why Melisandre looked at him like that through the fire. Of course I'm probably way off.

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sj4iy Council Member

sj4iy

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Thanks for the quick response. Not sure if I should click that spoiler though lol. Is this the biggest reveal of all time when it happens?

I seriously doubt it at this point...it's almost canon amongst most fans.

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