The Daynes of Winterfell?

[Archmaester Drew]

That it was a characteristic of the Valyrians doesn't suggest it was only characteristic of the Valyrians. Case in point: It's characteristic of at least some of the Daynes.

I'm sorry but why is it a problem to suppose that the Daynes (who technically came first, by the way) could also have those features? Why is it dependent on them intermarrying with Valyrians (which, other than Maekar's wife, isn't recorded anywhere)?

I have no problem with that either -- I suspect that First Men were a varied group that filtered into Westeros over hundreds of years from various places in Essos. There may be a connection between the ancestors of both Daynes and Valyrians -- or it could be just coincidence that these features are similar. :)

[Mithras]

Valyria was founded 5,000 years ago.

Not true. Valyria wiped out the Ghiscari Empire 5000 years ago, after a series of wars spanning centuries. That means they were a powerful empire 5000 years ago. They cannot pop out to existence as a mighty empire, so they were founded some good millenia before they defeated the Ghiscari Empire. We also have this information from TWOIAF:

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

This shows that some people from Valyria were coming to Oldtown for trade during the Dawn of Days.

[Mithras]

I think the Last Hero was a Dayne who married a female CotF and fathered a special child who was later known as Brandon the Builder.

[Dorian Martell]

the author has stated that purple eyes are not magical, just rare. Also, there is no example of the interbreeding with the CTOF and people, or People and giants. In the books, Albinism is magical (Ghost, Bloodraven, the Ghost of high heart) and Moss green eyes are magical (Jojen).

[Daendrew]

Really? Is there a link/source?

This, IIRC

[Daendrew]

I think the Last Hero was a Dayne who married a female CotF and fathered a special child who was later known as Brandon the Builder.

Interesting!

[TheNinjaDC]

Yeah, I would not be surprised at all a Dayne founded House Stark during the long night.

The journey of the last hero/AA is supposed to be a journey. And going from Starfall to Winterfell's location would be such a journey.

Then there is Dawn being extremely similar to Light Bringer mythos, and the Dayne & Stark general friendliness/respect for one another when they cross paths (which is strange for two houses on opposite sides of a continent).

I never even heard about Ellio's remark, that is indeed intriguing. ^_^

[WeaselPie]

So they went from where the star falls to where winter fell. I guess that's the gist of it.

[Ran]

Elio said GRRM doesn't release their words because it would be a giveaway. "Dawn brings the light"

I think I was joking at the time. In fact, the reason George didn't want the words he created for them released was that he wasn't particularly happy with what he had come up with at that time and figured he'd come up with something better.

[WeaselPie]

I think I was joking at the time. In fact, the reason George didn't want the words he created for them released was that he wasn't particularly happy with what he had come up with at that time and figured he'd come up with something better.

Telling words! And a good reason for none of us to be certain of... anything.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think I was joking at the time. In fact, the reason George didn't want the words he created for them released was that he wasn't particularly happy with what he had come up with at that time and figured he'd come up with something better.

I'm glad you clarified this. I know a healthy chunk of "Dawn is Lightbringer" proponents point to the mysterious house words that would "give too much away" as evidence supporting the theory. But if it was only based on a joke, that tempers it quite a bit.

[Cladinator]

I think I was joking at the time. In fact, the reason George didn't want the words he created for them released was that he wasn't particularly happy with what he had come up with at that time and figured he'd come up with something better.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Archmaester Drew]

Not true. Valyria wiped out the Ghiscari Empire 5000 years ago, after a series of wars spanning centuries. That means they were a powerful empire 5000 years ago. They cannot pop out to existence as a mighty empire, so they were founded some good millenia before they defeated the Ghiscari Empire. We also have this information from TWOIAF:

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

This shows that some people from Valyria were coming to Oldtown for trade during the Dawn of Days.

I thought that the Valyrians arose about 5000 years ago from pastoralists when they discovered dragons and bloodmagic and over time they had five wars with the Ghiscari, culminating in their final conquest around 1000 years ago -- at which point they turned their attention to the Rhoynar... :)

[Dorian Martell]

I think I was joking at the time. In fact, the reason George didn't want the words he created for them released was that he wasn't particularly happy with what he had come up with at that time and figured he'd come up with something better.

So what were the original words? "My sword is bigger than yours" or something

[Ser Creighton]

Yeah I remember Martin saying that about not being happy with the words. "When you wish upon a star" felt to Disney for him and their sigil used to be a Cricket. They need work. Though honestly that was a while back and the World book came out and still no words, stupid secret Daynes making everyone wait for phrasing.

[White Ravens]

The "first" vision Bran gets from the Winterfell tree is of blond people with an curved blade killing someone at the tree awakening it. Could it be the Daynes? They are supposedly 10k years old, 2,000 years older than the Starks and the sword Dawn defeated the others as its probably Lightbringer. There are no blonde people as such of Westeros aside from the Daynes.

My guess is that the Dayne sword of the morning helped in the first long night. Even there name Dawn, DAYne. Ends the night.

Elio said GRRM doesn't release their words because it would be a giveaway. "Dawn brings the light"

But Bran's vision doesn't describe a blonde person with a curved blade, it describes someone with white hair. I interpret that to mean that person was old. My 82-year-old father had dark brown hair as a young man and gradually turned more and more grey until he ended up with white hair, for example. That is not to say that the woman with the curved blade wasn't blonde or Targaryne or Valyrian but it isn't necessarily the case.

[J. Stargaryen]

Following in Ser Creighton's foot steps, there are a couple of interesting inverse parallels between Lyanna and Ashara that I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe there are others too.

Lyanna was honored at the HH tourney, while Ashara was specifically said to have been dishonored. The latter supposedly gave birth to a stillborn girl, while the former gave birth to a boy who lived. [/Harry Potter] Lyanna also likely died in a tower, while Ashara was said to have jumped from one. I don't know if the last is as much an inverse parallel as the first two, but thought I'd mention it.

[Musashisamurai]

I personally think that the Stark's role in the first War for the Dawn is in their name-STARk. Their castle is WINTER-FELL, so it makes perfect sense for the battle to have ended there.

Is there any reason though the Last Hero had to go north to find the COTF? Is it possible he traveled south (to find the COTF, or after meeting them) and found the meteorite where Starfall is now? He then traveled back North and defeated the Others where Winterfell is. This doesn't explain why Starfall was founded and the Daynes ended up in Dorne, unless the Last Hero traveled south again. Maybe Stark was originally a cadet branch of the Daynes, or maybe one of the Last Hero's party who chose to stay north and not go back south.

Part of me also wants to think the Starks fought with the Others or used ice-magic originally to found their kingdom, giving them the name "Kings of Winter" their words "Winter is Coming" and their sword, Ice. If Others are First Men/COTF corrupted by ice-magic, maybe the Last Hero (a Dayne) killed the bad Starks and left some alive, who promised to never make Others again (The Others might have easily turned on them in the meantime). They used their magic to build the Wall, which uses Ice against, well, ice-people. The Dayne, seeing that Brandon the Builder would keep his word, went back south but made "The Sword of the Morning" position to ensure there would always be someone able to use Lightbringer/Dawn and fight against the Starks/Others.

That Ned and Arthur fought, Ice vs Dawn, is just too much for me, even though Ned still holds Arthur in high regard.

Stargaryen, that's a really good analogy between Ashara Dayne and Lyanna Stark. You might add that their brothers fought, and Lyanna's won.

[J. Stargaryen]

I personally think that the Stark's role in the first War for the Dawn is in their name-STARk. Their castle is WINTER-FELL, so it makes perfect sense for the battle to have ended there.

Is there any reason though the Last Hero had to go north to find the COTF? Is it possible he traveled south (to find the COTF, or after meeting them) and found the meteorite where Starfall is now? He then traveled back North and defeated the Others where Winterfell is. This doesn't explain why Starfall was founded and the Daynes ended up in Dorne, unless the Last Hero traveled south again. Maybe Stark was originally a cadet branch of the Daynes, or maybe one of the Last Hero's party who chose to stay north and not go back south.

Part of me also wants to think the Starks fought with the Others or used ice-magic originally to found their kingdom, giving them the name "Kings of Winter" their words "Winter is Coming" and their sword, Ice. If Others are First Men/COTF corrupted by ice-magic, maybe the Last Hero (a Dayne) killed the bad Starks and left some alive, who promised to never make Others again (The Others might have easily turned on them in the meantime). They used their magic to build the Wall, which uses Ice against, well, ice-people. The Dayne, seeing that Brandon the Builder would keep his word, went back south but made "The Sword of the Morning" position to ensure there would always be someone able to use Lightbringer/Dawn and fight against the Starks/Others.

That Ned and Arthur fought, Ice vs Dawn, is just too much for me, even though Ned still holds Arthur in high regard.

Stargaryen, that's a really good analogy between Ashara Dayne and Lyanna Stark. You might add that their brothers fought, and Lyanna's won.

Thanks. I actually had a theory vaguely along the same lines as what you address in your first paragraph; Star/Stark. - Link. I'm not sure the OP holds up as a whole, but I still like the part about LB and Dawn. Lady Gwyn and yolkboy made good use out of it in one of their Radio Westeros podcasts. Radio Westeros E08 - Fear is for the Long Night.

Lady Gwyn and yolkboy look at the Long Night of ancient times. We examine all the textual clues, including some new hints from TWoIaF, but this episode is also full of speculation on the history and nature of the Others, the Night's Watch, Lightbringer, the Last Hero, Azor Ahai and more. With exclusive music from Robb Dylan and readings set to specially arranged music. Join us for a journey into Westeros' murky past!

[Ser Creighton]

Following in Ser Creighton's foot steps, there are a couple of interesting inverse parallels between Lyanna and Ashara that I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe there are others too.

Lyanna was honored at the HH tourney, while Ashara was specifically said to have been dishonored. The latter supposedly gave birth to a stillborn girl, while the former gave birth to a boy who lived. [/Harry Potter] Lyanna also likely died in a tower, while Ashara was said to have jumped from one. I don't know if the last is as much an inverse parallel as the first two, but thought I'd mention it.

Yeah, mirrored contrast, inverse parallels, whatever name you like. I like them but I am biased. But I think I have gotten good results from them, only time will tell though. I think there was something with Bale the Brad I looked at with those two, but I don't remember. I think there is death at a tower in all three. Symbolism is generally in contrast but the themes can be the same, love, hate, whatever. I know Lyanna and Bale but I thought it worked well with Ashara as well, but like I said it's been awhile.

There was also something with Arthur Dayne at the tower, a bleeding Star and the guy Wun Wun killed Ser Whos it's of what's it and the stars with blood on them. 3 guys in White defending the tower with a woman and Baby and 3 Guys in black stabbing Jon next to a tower with a Woman and Baby in it. Little Howland Reed and Giant Wun Wun. There was more to it but again it's been awhile. And like Martin I just sort of look to keep it in the ballpark.

Very Curious about the Sword of the Morning and Sword of the Evening, so glad we didn't get any explination on that Ran. Cause yippy more mysteries. But hey it's an inverse, soooooo actually I am kind of yippy about it. But if Ran wants to explain it with all those hundreds and hundreds of pages of extra notes he has lying around that would be nice.

Now I got to go explain why me saying Jon is under a lot of pressure and has had a lot of trauma in his life, does not make him Darth Vader. People reading shit into everything these days, don't know where they come up with this stuff. If they had said Patrick Bateman then we could of talked, at least Patrick was fun.