why do so many people have a problem with the maggie the frog prophecy?

[Cas Stark]

Actually, that's exactly what it is. People, including Cersei, sees the magical in what Maggy told her, when what he exactly told her was "you will be old and replaceable one day" and she freaked out. That's human nature and that's the sad destiny of Queens: to be replaced by a pretty Princess to have new heirs one day. A prophecy is even needed to point out this? The conflict between the Old Queen and the New Princess is the oldest tale in the book, as it's the conflict between ageing women and fertile maiden.

We see Cersei through her eyes, that's why we see the crazy. But, her behaviour in her POV is actually calm from outside. But in private, she has always been crazy and violent. How many times she assaulted Tyrion in Clash? Or her all "women should use more her vaginas, sansa!" speech during Blackwater? How isn't that the epitome of crazy and paranoid?

Yep. She has always been physically violent good point.

I suppose it is a bit of a spoiler that she and the children are doomed to die unless the author does some about face on the prophecy, which would be at this point, more unbelievable than the idea that she, herself, every step of the way...from killing Melara, to aborting Bob's baby, has caused the prophecy to come true.

[TheYellowAppleFossoway]

My position is that she was always a fool, the difference is she never had any real power until Feast.

Look at her stupidity over Lady, why make it so obvious that you are Stark's enemy before you even get to KL? Right. Because she's such a freak that she cannot stand not getting her own way, no matter how counter productive it is. Or, there is the fact that she is outmaneuvered by her 13 year old son, who is allowed to start a war. Or, dismissing Selmy. The list of her mistakes and miscalculations is endless. And if not for LF and Varys wanting her secret to be kept, she would have been outed and executed years earlier. Why does she refuse to protect Sansa? Sansa still believes in her, even after her father is killed, but instead of using that, she says, ah, fuck it, and lets Joff abuse her. She is stupid and short sighted and she was stupid and short sighted from the first book.

Has Cersei made mistakes? Of course, name one major character who hasn't. The difference is that pre-Feast, her mistakes are generally motivated out of Lannister pride and arrogance. Post-Feast is riddled with bat shit crazy prophecy fueled mistakes.

I'm not sure if the dismissing Selmy buck stops with her. She is the regent, however, she can't continually check her boy-king's power. I'll chalk that up to poor intervention strategy. As stupid as the dismissal may seem on the surface, keeping Selmy around could have proved more destructive for her ambitions (Note: her ambitions, not Tywin's). Selmy's loyalty and morality waves with the wind (especially concerning a Lannister regime). Public discord from the LC could have serious reverberations throughout the power structure.

Killing Ned on the other hand is misrepresented by your post. If Joffrey outmaneuvered her, then he outmaneuvered Varys as well. In all honesty, It was most likely Little Finger who did the outmaneuvering via Joffrey puppet.

I never claimed she was a mastermind or flawless. She is arrogant and petty in the early books, but not crazy. I think Martin ruined an interesting character via the prophecy.

Edit: grammatical errors

[Dofs]

I'm not sure if the dismissing Selmy buck stops with her. She is the regent, however, she can't continually check her boy-king's power. I'll chalk that up to poor intervention strategy. As stupid as the dismissal may seem on the surface, keeping Selmy around could have proved more destructive for her ambitions (Note: her ambitions, not Tywin's). Selmy's loyalty and morality waves with the wind (especially concerning a Lannister regime). Public discord from the LC could have serious reverberations throughout the power structure.

You are assuming she actually considering all that you had written. She didn't. Joff needed a place for Sandor in KG and Varys suggested to dismiss Selmy. Cersei considered it as a good idea because that would also allow Jaime to become Lord Commander. That's it, that was all she thought about dismissing Selmy.

Cersei may have not been paranoid before Feast and thus less crazy (although Melara may disagree with me), but no doubt she was as stupid.

[Cas Stark]

Has Cersei made mistakes? Of course, name one major character who hasn't. The difference is that pre-Feast, her mistakes are generally motivated out of Lannister pride and arrogance. Post-Feast is riddled with bat shit crazy prophecy fueled mistakes.

I'm not sure if the dismissing Selmy buck stops with her. She is the regent, however, she can't continually check her boy-king's power. I'll chalk that up to poor intervention strategy. As stupid as the dismissal may seem on the surface, keeping Selmy around could have proved more destructive for her ambitions (Note: her ambitions, not Tywin's). Selmy's loyalty and morality waves with the wind (especially concerning a Lannister regime). Public discord from the LC could have serious reverberations throughout the power structure.

Killing Ned on the other hand is misrepresented by your post. If Joffrey outmaneuvered her, then he outmaneuvered Varys as well. In all honesty, It was most likely Little Finger who did the outmaneuvering via Joffrey puppet.

I never claimed she was a mastermind or flawless. She is arrogant and petty in the early books, but not crazy. I think Martin ruined an interesting character via the prophecy.

Edit: grammatical errors

Isn't the only prophecy driven scheme getting rid of Marg?

She had already turned on Tyrion in Storm. She also flips out about Joff during the battle of Blackwater, about Tommen as king and about Mycella, so she was already paranoid about losing control of her children pre prophecy disclosure in Feast.

You're not alone in the view that the prophecy was bad for her character, but I don't share it, because as I said, she was always terrible at everything except small potatoes scheming, she can get rid of person Y, but she has no idea how to run anything or keep anything together.

Plus, the only thing I did like about Feast was Cersei going completely off the rails. LOL.

[Greymoon]

When you plagiarize freaking Snow White in an adult book, that's a good indication you are doing something wrong as a writer.

How is that a good thing? Self-fulfilling prophesy is the laziest writing trick there is.

Snow White is a very old tale. The Grimm version incorporates mentions of cannibalism, and in the early version, the evil queen was Snow White's own mother....they weren't writing a children's book, but recording 'german folktales' in the spirit of creating a national identity. It was all very political, and the tales they recorded, some of them are quite gruesome....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with referencing traditional folk tales/legends or classical works in an adult book, imo, it's all a matter of how its done. And for the German version, Snow White might actually be inspired by real events...

Margaretha von Waldeck (1533 – 15 March 1554) was the daughter of Philip IV of Waldeck-Wildungen (1493–1574) and his first wife, Margaret of East Frisia (1500–1537). She is believed to be an influence for the fairy tale of Snow White.

Margaretha's father owned several copper mines - a majority of workers were children. When Margaretha was about 16 or 17, she left her home because she and her new step-mother could not get along. She settled in Brussels and soon attracted the attention of the future Philip II of Spain. They became lovers with the intention to marry; however, the union was forbidden by Phillip's father (who saw no political value) and Margaretha's step-mother (who simply hated the girl).

Unlike the fairy tale, this story does not have a happy ending: be it fate or foul play, Margaretha was dead by the age of 21. It is believed that she was poisoned [...]

Margartha, Margaery. Very similar names, same origin.

[Fae Boleyn]

When it comes to not killing Tyrion, remember how badly kinslaying is seen. Even Cersei might have balked at chancing it for a while, especially since she likely counted on Tywin's hatred for Tyrion to keep Tyrion from ever getting the kind of power where he could hurt her and her children. Note that if the implication that she's behind Mandon Moore trying to kill Tyrion is true, she notably makes a move at a time when it's unlikely a success would've been traced back to her, at a time when Tywin's hatred hasn't stopped him from giving Tyrion power, at a time when Tyrion has sent her daughter away and intentionally made her think he's willing to abuse, even rape her younger son. (Though I think it's possible Joffrey and not Cersei gave that order, truthfully.) But at this point, even if she's concerned about kinslaying or getting caught, Tyrion has given her valid reason. He actually has, considering the threats made about Tommen to protect Alayaya. We know Tyrion is bluffing, but Cersei buys it and he meant her to. Tbh Tyrion was asking for trouble; his motive was good but telling a woman who already hates and suspects you that you're willing to do awful things to her child is... Unwise, let's say.

And speaking of her suspicion, the prophecy, even if she tried to forget it, helps explain that. Tywin hates Tyrion, but he doesn't seem to think Tyrion would work against him or the family till after he hears about the threats to Tommen. Which is not an unreasonable conclusion. He thinks Tyrion's behavior will bring shame, but that's a different sort of mistrust, of the "you're unreliable and troublesome" sort rather than "you're a threat".

Also, had Jaime found out she did it, there would have been trouble and I think she knew that.

But more simply, I think it's clear that Cersei was operating on the hope that ignoring the prophecy would make it go away. Killing Tyrion, her believed valonqar, only rids her of half the problem, after all; a younger Cersei, even a Queen Cersei pre-AGoT has no way to know who the younger more beautiful queen is. And note that the wording of the prophecy implies the younger queen takes everything, before the valonqar kills Cersei. So said queen is as big a threat as the valonqar, but unidentifiable. Better to try and go with the ignoring it makes it not real plan because if that works, there's nothing to worry about.

[Florina Laufeyson]

People believe it harms Cersei's character. While i do not argue the story could have worked without Maggy, i dont really think it hurts Cersei's character. Because either way, the author was going to find a way for Cersei to justify why she does what she does.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's the silly prophecy which is ripped off, not the jealousy part. Was that not obvious?

<snip

There's a prophecy in Snow White about the older queen's kids all dying and then her getting strangled to death? I don't remember that.

There was no prophecy here. It was a fortune. Cersei turned it into a prophecy. She's the one making all of that happen. She's the one who forced Maggy's to tell her anything with threats.

And no, that wasn't obvious. You said Snow White, which is all about jealousy. Jealousy and dwarves. There's no blood sucking, no trying by the mirror to say no, no warning that the Queen wouldn't like what she was going to hear, certainly no best friend who ends up mysteriously dead relatively soon after. That queen was going to age. There was going to be someone younger and hotter. That's not even a prophecy, just a fact.

Cersei on the other hand could have prevented what she fears through her own actions. Here's one: if you think Tyrion's going to kill you, try being nice to him so he won't want to kill you. You know, now that I think about it, the Queen in Snow White is much smarter than Cersei is. But then she's not getting loaded every night on Arbor gold either.

If it's a rip-off it's a rip off of life. Old queens get replaced by younger, and often prettier ones. And sometimes people say things to upset someone without any intention of the stuff actually happening, but it ends up happening anyway.

Prophecies are meant to happen without any chance of stopping them. If Cersei had had even one child by Robert, the whole thing would have been bunk. GRRM used that with MMD as well. What was meant as simply an up-yours to Dany is accidentally coming to pass.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Snow White is a very old tale. The Grimm version incorporates mentions of cannibalism, and in the early version, the evil queen was Snow White's own mother....they weren't writing a children's book, but recording 'german folktales' in the spirit of creating a national identity. It was all very political, and the tales they recorded, some of them are quite gruesome....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with referencing traditional folk tales/legends or classical works in an adult book, imo, it's all a matter of how its done. And for the German version, Snow White might actually be inspired by real events...

Margartha, Margaery. Very similar names, same origin.

Interesting. GRRM has specifically mentioned Anne Boleyn's trial as inspiration for Margaery's, but the character have been based partly on Margartha.

[the trees have eyes]

Her "batshit crazy" behaviour is perfectly explainable without Maggy Frog's prophecy.

After all

1 Her son is murdered at his wedding feast, an understandably traumatic event

2 Tyrion had directly threatened in ACOK to take chilling revenge on her when she was feeling safe and secure

The prophecy just adds a bit of colour to her paranoia and downward spiral - and hardens her grudge against Tyrion (and I'd be wary of interpreting the prophecy too literally). I don't see why its a problem for us as readers: after all GRRM has a habit of letting us think we know where he is going and then surprising us.

My only quibble would be we have had Catelyn's terrible tragedy unfold before us - losing all her family (or thinking so) to be left with nothing. If Cersei is destined for the same (and to actually lose her children) I can't see it having the same force as Catelyn's story (certainly there is less sympathy for Cersei as a character on my part) or that we need two female characters to go through the same anguish.

[Jasta11]

When you plagiarize freaking Snow White in an adult book, that's a good indication you are doing something wrong as a writer.

How is that a good thing? Self-fulfilling prophesy is the laziest writing trick there is.

I agree to a degree. I don't mind prophecies when they are cleverly made, such as Patchface's ramblings, or the Ghost of High Heart's creepy stuff. But Maggy the Frog does seem right out of a fairy tale, and the self-fulfilling aspect is rather ham-fisted, when we have already seen this trope many times.

And to the people who say that, no I don't expect unique plot twists at every twist and turn, but of all the fantasy tropes to recycle this is one I have no affection for.

[Petyr's Little Finger]

If it wasn't for the prophecy then Cersei would just be a less competent version of Tywin. The prophecy and and all of Cersei's paranoia about it make her who she is. Cersei's paranoia changes her from just another Lannister who is looking out for her family to a crazy unhinged woman who really does not belong in power. I like how we see Cersei as politicianlike in Ned's POV and also in Tyrion's, then we see her own POV which shows her as completely unhinged. I like that Cersei is made crazy it adds another layer onto her personality.

[SevasTra82]

Cersei is (amongst other things) going bat shit crazy BECAUSE of the prophesy, which in turn will be the reason the prophesy happens in the first place. Pretty ironic twist...by trying to prevent the prophecy she is actually fulfilling what is needed for it to come to past.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I agree to a degree. I don't mind prophecies when they are cleverly made, such as Patchface's ramblings, or the Ghost of High Heart's creepy stuff. But Maggy the Frog does seem right out of a fairy tale, and the self-fulfilling aspect is rather ham-fisted, when we have already seen this trope many times.

And to the people who say that, no I don't expect unique plot twists at every twist and turn, but of all the fantasy tropes to recycle this is one I have no affection for.

This I can respect. You're saying you don't care for it. That's totally fine.

All tropes belong to all genres. There are just fewer dragons in non-fantasy novels. And there is no such thing as an original plot. Doesn't matter how skilled the writer, he or she will be recycling something covered elsewhere.

[239JMFL34109]

I know a lot of people think it's a retcon, but she was never good at ruling, way back in GOT, and she always hated Tyrion, she hated him in GOT, so she wouldn't have needed a prophecy to blame him for Joff, and the prophecy has nothing to do with most of her bat shit crazy decision making, like refusing to pay the Iron Bank or rearming the faith, the only thing it relates to is Marg, but she could easily have hated Marg simply for undermining her control over Joff.

So, it has never bothered me that much since I always thought she was fairly unhinged, from the first book.

this thank you!! novels like movies and etc are very subjective at times but she alway came off as too narcissistic and unhinged to rule to me. she never gets what she really wants because she always wants more. this leads her to undermine herself.

[LordStoneheart]

The prophecy also ruins one of Martin's strongest and most interesting female characters. The additions of the prophecy is just another piece of evidence that Martin struggles to write strong and complex female characters. To be fair, well written female characters is often a sticking point for most male authors.

No idea where this is coming from. His female characters are at times much better than this males. Cersei was not notably strong or complex in the first three books, just coniving and egotistical.

[Mithras]

Because with the available books to us, we do not really need Maggy's prophecy. It looks like a retcon unless George plans surprise us in the future.

[239JMFL34109]

My only quibble would be we have had Catelyn's terrible tragedy unfold before us - losing all her family (or thinking so) to be left with nothing. If Cersei is destined for the same (and to actually lose her children) I can't see it having the same force as Catelyn's story (certainly there is less sympathy for Cersei as a character on my part) or that we need two female characters to go through the same anguish.

1) what does it matter that they are both female? maester aemon basically gone through the same thing too same with jon as well.

2) i always think that cersei wounds are all self inflicted. Joffery was killed because he was a monster. A monster she herself had created in how she raised him. I think in her plots to keep control of her youngest son she will kill him and same with her daughter. same with her death too

[239JMFL34109]

Because with the available books to us, we do not really need Maggy's prophecy. It looks like a retcon unless George plans surprise us in the future.

he is my problem with calling this a retcon. what previously established facts is this prophecy changing? if it's not changing some established fact then isn't everything after the first word is a retcon.

[Attitude]

I actually like it, because look at us, we're discussing it again!

Anyway, what I think is weird, is that people are so sure that Tommen & Myrcella will have to die too, before Cersei dies. I can't say that the prophecy actually states that, but it seems that many people accept it as the truth. Why is that so? Or did I miss additional information?