R+L=J v.133

[Ygrain]

I'm quite sure he got his way to keep her mouth busy. U_U

(sorry, I had to).

I doubt very much that solution was, you know, permanent.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I doubt very much that solution was, you know, permanent.

Sadly...:p

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe he tried to set her up with Ned... like "that way, we could be together forever!".

[DarkSister1001]

I have glanced through the Hershey's. I haven't found the warm welcome that one usually gets in the other threads like this one or the re-reads. But I think that's bc there always seems to be quick back and forth already happening and it's tough to jump in. Like trying to enter the Lazy River. There's no way to get in without pissing off a few people and interrupting their floating.

Barb is such an enigma to me. I really can't seem to figure out if she's a bitter bitch or cunning conspirator. I can see both sides easily but there isn't extra evidence one way or another to tip the scale for me.

[markg171]

Which is part of why I wonder if Barb was on her way down to Riverrun for the wedding of Brandon and Cat and Brandon's "errand" was to go met her halfway and either 1) get her to agree to shut up or 2) have one last fling or 3) both 1 and 2

Barbrey was already married to Lord Dustin by this point. I think Lord Dustin might find it odd if his wife decides she's going to go to Brandon's wedding without him. If she was going to the wedding, then he was too. Brandon wouldn't cuckold one of his most important future bannerman, especially right before his marriage to a Lord Paramount's daughter who would also get mad if it was found out. There's too many important people to piss off at this point. I find it far more likely that Brandon and Barbrey's last night together was at the end of his fostering with the Dustins, years before.

But then again, Cat says that when Rickard went to King's Landing, he had 200 of his best men with him. So it's possible that he had Barrowton troops with him, i.e the Dustins had been on their way to Riverrun too and he took some of their troops to continue onto King's Landing. I find it unlikely he needed a guard of 200 of his best men, simply to go to Riverrun. 200 men sounds like he had other people supplying him troops.

I see it that way, too. Nothing we have heard about Brandon shows him as a loving person, but rather entitled, possessive and uncaring. Everything was meant for Brandon, he was never shy about what he wanted, he deflowered his bannerman's daughter, was willing to endanger his family to avenge a slight... we yet have to hear a single thing that doesn't paint him as a big D-bag.

The duel with Littlefinger sounds the complete opposite and definitely doesn't paint him as an asshole.

They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. “He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die.” And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. “Yield!” he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

The idea of Brandon as an asshole is a retcon to differ him from Ned. Because it's only after AGOT that Brandon's suddenly the one who yelled "come out and die", who deflowers his bannermen's daughters, took what he wanted, etc. When he's first introduced, he's just a typical Stark like Ned, but with a bit more personality. He's not an asshole though until later on.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Barbrey had gone south for the wedding, there would have been a male companion. Either her father, a brother, or her husband(-to-be).

And they didn't go to the wedding. Because her father and brothers are still alive in 300 AC, and her husband died only later. And we know that all men who went south with Rickard, never returned.

Barbrey's family was most likely busy themselves organizing a wedding. When Med called his banners (thus, when he arrived at Winterfell or anywhere in the North), they had not yet been married for six months. We don't know how long exactly it took Ned to reach the North, nor how much time passed between Brandon traveling to Riverrun, and Brandon being killed, but in both cases, we are speaking about months, most likely. Which brings us rather close to "almost six months" since Barbrey's wedding.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The idea of Brandon as an asshole is a retcon to differ him from Ned. Because it's only after AGOT that Brandon's suddenly the one who yelled "come out and die", who deflowers his bannermen's daughters, took what he wanted, etc. When he's first introduced, he's just a typical Stark like Ned, but with a bit more personality. He's not an asshole though until later on.

So just because Brandon knew how to act in front of his future in-laws, we should ignore that more privately, he was a (slightly) different person? That's not logical.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The idea of Brandon as an asshole is a retcon to differ him from Ned. Because it's only after AGOT that Brandon's suddenly the one who yelled "come out and die", who deflowers his bannermen's daughters, took what he wanted, etc. When he's first introduced, he's just a typical Stark like Ned, but with a bit more personality. He's not an asshole though until later on.

So just because Brandon knew how to act in front of his future in-laws, we should ignore that more privately, he was a (slightly) different person? That's not logical.

Actually, in aGoT, Cat remembers that Brandon had to leave for something. How odd that GRRM mentions it. It had to have some importance. He was going to get married very soon, he could have stayed in Riverrun. Yet, he told her he would leave for some time but never told her where he was going. That probably means he was up to no good.

[BearQueen87]

If Barbrey had gone south for the wedding, there would have been a male companion. Either her father, a brother, or her husband(-to-be).

And they didn't go to the wedding. Because her father and brothers are still alive in 300 AC, and her husband died only later. And we know that all men who went south with Rickard, never returned.

Or a member of the household guard. The future lord of WF is getting married, the bannermen show up. Someone from Barb's family had to be there.

And no one went to the wedding because there was none :) Once Brandon went off to KL, I think it's likely half the men who did come south for the wedding went back up north to await orders from Rickard.

[Alia of the knife]

Barbrey was already married to Lord Dustin by this point. I think Lord Dustin might find it odd if his wife decides she's going to go to Brandon's wedding without him. If she was going to the wedding, then he was too. Brandon wouldn't cuckold one of his most important future bannerman, especially right before his marriage to a Lord Paramount's daughter who would also get mad if it was found out. There's too many important people to piss off at this point. I find it far more likely that Brandon and Barbrey's last night together was at the end of his fostering with the Dustins, years before.

But then again, Cat says that when Rickard went to King's Landing, he had 200 of his best men with him. So it's possible that he had Barrowton troops with him, i.e the Dustins had been on their way to Riverrun too and he took some of their troops to continue onto King's Landing. I find it unlikely he needed a guard of 200 of his best men, simply to go to Riverrun. 200 men sounds like he had other people supplying him troops.

The duel with Littlefinger sounds the complete opposite and definitely doesn't paint him as an asshole.

The idea of Brandon as an asshole is a retcon to differ him from Ned. Because it's only after AGOT that Brandon's suddenly the one who yelled "come out and die", who deflowers his bannermen's daughters, took what he wanted, etc. When he's first introduced, he's just a typical Stark like Ned, but with a bit more personality. He's not an asshole though until later on.

Actually, he and Oberyn are quite similar, (he slapped Obarras mother), and we actually don't know that Brandon didn't love his family. Having two hot-headed brothers paralleling the women in Rhaegars life is likely deliberate on the authors part.

While he might have been a hypocrite, it was his right to challenge even the CP based upon the information he had about his sisters fate.

Again, I doubt he's anymore one dimensional than the other characters.

[BearQueen87]

The idea of Brandon as an asshole is a retcon to differ him from Ned. Because it's only after AGOT that Brandon's suddenly the one who yelled "come out and die", who deflowers his bannermen's daughters, took what he wanted, etc. When he's first introduced, he's just a typical Stark like Ned, but with a bit more personality. He's not an asshole though until later on.

No. It's not. GRRM is uncovering layers of a character that was kept in the dark for awhile, much like he does with Rhaegar, JonCon and many more. George doesn't tell you the back story of every dead character upfront, he put its it together piecemeal style. Also, that's not what retcon means....a retcon is when it alters previously established facts. No facts were ever established about Brandon except that he was Ned's brother, Cat's fiancee at one point and he dueled LF. None of those facts have been discredited. But instead, you get a broader history of who he was with each passing book--just like every other character. We didn't know Jaime had never slept with any other woman except Cersei until the very end of ACOK. It's not in AGOT. So..is that a retcon? No. It's uncovering layers of a character.

Actually, he and Oberyn are quite similar, (he slapped Obarras mother), and we actually don't know that Brandon didn't love his family. Having two hot-headed brothers paralleling the women in Rhaegars life is likely deliberate on the authors part.

While he might have been a hypocrite, it was his right to challenge even the CP based upon the information he had about his sisters fate.

Again, I doubt he's anymore one dimensional than the other characters.

Yes to the final though. Brandon isn't one dimensional. He was a gallant fool with a penchant for fighting, sleeping, and quick to anger when it came to his family and their honor.

[Prince of the North]

Interesting discussion. Yes, I don't think Brandon Stark was always a giant d-bag nor was he always a complete paragon of virtue - but a bit of both. Isn't one of the major things we all love about ASoIaF the fact that Martin doesn't write in absolutes or write two-dimensional characters? We love that it's at least a bit more realistic in that sense, right?

I've had sort of the same impression of Lady Barbrey Dustin. I think she does harbor some deep resentments of the Starks. Specifically, I think she legitimately was an unrequited lover of Brandon's and I think she quite understandably resents that her husband went south with Eddard Stark and all she ever got back was his horse. On the other hand, I think she's still a very loyal Northerner and does not want to see it come under the rule of the Boltons. I don't see any reason why she can't both have some understandable beefs with the Starks and still be a loyal Northerner :dunno:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Or a member of the household guard. The future lord of WF is getting married, the bannermen show up. Someone from Barb's family had to be there.

And no one went to the wedding because there was none :) Once Brandon went off to KL, I think it's likely half the men who did come south for the wedding went back up north to await orders from Rickard.

Those bannermen seem to have remained with Rickard. Bran says, IIRC (and correct me if I am mistaken), that hey went south with Rickard and never returned north again. Had they returned north in between, it would have been stated differently.

[BearQueen87]

Those bannermen seem to have remained with Rickard. Bran says, IIRC (and correct me if I am mistaken), that hey went south with Rickard and never returned north again. Had they returned north in between, it would have been stated differently.

Did ALL the bannerman go though? I mean, that's a lot of bannermen. We know that the ones who went south never came home, but that's not the same as saying all the bannermen went south to begin with. (I might be over thinking this). Or did Rickard just take the bannermen with sons who went with Brandon?

[markg171]

Thought you guys might be interested in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNVYaBfb3RA

It's Jon and Mance from season 5. I believe Jon is trying to convince Mance to bend the knee to Stannis

[markg171]

So just because Brandon knew how to act in front of his future in-laws, we should ignore that more privately, he was a (slightly) different person? That's not logical.

No, just that are first picture of him is really just this regular, honourable Stark like Ned

Actually, he and Oberyn are quite similar, (he slapped Obarras mother), and we actually don't know that Brandon didn't love his family. Having two hot-headed brothers paralleling the women in Rhaegars life is likely deliberate on the authors part.

While he might have been a hypocrite, it was his right to challenge even the CP based upon the information he had about his sisters fate.

Again, I doubt he's anymore one dimensional than the other characters.

I'm not saying he isn't one dimensional, and I like the Oberyn comparison, I'm just saying that George later morphed Brandon to be like that.

No. It's not. GRRM is uncovering layers of a character that was kept in the dark for awhile, much like he does with Rhaegar, JonCon and many more. George doesn't tell you the back story of every dead character upfront, he put its it together piecemeal style. Also, that's not what retcon means....a retcon is when it alters previously established facts. No facts were ever established about Brandon except that he was Ned's brother, Cat's fiancee at one point and he dueled LF. None of those facts have been discredited. But instead, you get a broader history of who he was with each passing book--just like every other character. We didn't know Jaime had never slept with any other woman except Cersei until the very end of ACOK. It's not in AGOT. So..is that a retcon? No. It's uncovering layers of a character.

It is altering things though. That's why I called it a retcon. GRRM painted Brandon as the honourable Stark in AGOT whose only real difference to Ned was that he was cooler than him, and then changed him to be this hot blooded dog chasing tails and trying to fight everyone. It's not just unlayering the character, it's changing the previous established character. It's a retcon.

[BearQueen87]

It is altering things though. That's why I called it a retcon. GRRM painted Brandon as the honourable Stark in AGOT whose only real difference to Ned was that he was cooler than him, and then changed him to be this hot blooded dog chasing tails and trying to fight everyone. It's not just unlayering the character, it's changing the previous established character. It's a retcon.

No it's not. If that's Brandon, then Brandon was always that way, we just didn't know. George keeps adding layers to a character. We knew nothing about Brandon personality wise except that he was to be heir to WF and that Ned seems bitter towards him for some unexplained reason in *that* moment. Then we learn more about it. The character was never altered nor retocned. He was brought out of the dark and drawn more clearly for the audience. That's called writing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Did ALL the bannerman go though? I mean, that's a lot of bannermen. We know that the ones who went south never came home, but that's not the same as saying all the bannermen went south to begin with. (I might be over thinking this). Or did Rickard just take the bannermen with sons who went with Brandon?

Isn't that the way it is worded? Also, perhaps it depends on the definition of bannermen one uses. Do people like Harwin or Jory Cassel count as bannermen? Their predecessors could have been the most of those 200 men who went with Rickard. Winterfell men, who knew Brandon.

Why would Rickard send them north? Brandon was with Rickard's group when he heard about Lyanna. Whatever Brandon learned, Rickard would learn quickly thereafter. And with Aerys involved, there would be trouble either way. So sending your men north, with the idea of recalling them within weeks if necessary, doesn't seem too logic to me.

[BearQueen87]

Isn't that the way it is worded? Also, perhaps it depends on the definition of bannermen one uses. Do people like Harwin or Jory Cassel count as bannermen? Their predecessors could have been the most of those 200 men who went with Rickard. Winterfell men, who knew Brandon.

Honestly...I don't remember, to answer the first. It's been awhile since I did a re-read of the HH-RR incidents. I'll go with you. I still think Brandon leaving on an errand is hella suspect, though.

[markg171]

No it's not. If that's Brandon, then Brandon was always that way, we just didn't know. George keeps adding layers to a character. We knew nothing about Brandon personality wise except that he was to be heir to WF and that Ned seems bitter towards him for some unexplained reason in *that* moment. Then we learn more about it. The character was never altered nor retocned. He was brought out of the dark and drawn more clearly for the audience. That's called writing.

Simply from the duel:

- We knew Brandon was honourable. He took off his armour when he saw that Littlefinger didn't have as much as he did. He leveled the playing field between the two of them when he didn't have too

- That he cared for Catelyn. She asked him to spare Littlefinger's life and he said he would when we know from Ned that Brandon did not like Littlefinger and therefore probably would have killed him otherwise. Yet he agreed to spare him because Cat asked him too

- He kept his word. It was immediately obvious that Brandon far outskilled Littlefinger as he had him bleeding for a dozen wounds within seconds. Yet he called out for Littlefinger to yield multiple times until Littlefinger was finally too wounded to continue. Brandon could have killed him, but he kept his word not to.

- That Edmure squired for him over Littlefinger. The fact that Edmure chose Brandon over Littlefinger, a boy he'd known almost all of his life, and the fact that we know that Brandon didn't like Littlefinger, shows that Brandon was close to his in laws. He'd spent time amongst them

He's the typical honourable Stark in AGOT. Then in the later books, he's not.

- He calls for Rhaegar to come out and die. This is vastly different than the man who fought honourably in a duel with Littlefinger.

- He seemingly cheats on his betrothed multiple times (Barbrey and Ashara). This is different than before when we are painted a picture of him caring for Cat

- He doesn't keep his word as evidenced by this cheating. He was betrothed to her. This is different than him keeping his word to Cat in the duel. He doesn't keep his word anymore

- Doesn't want to marry Cat according to Barbrey when he seemingly cared for her before

So yes, I think it's a retcon and not simply fleshing out his character. He goes from being an honourable man who keeps his word and cares for Cat, to being a guy who isn't honourable, doesn't keep his word, and doesn't care for Cat. He's a completely different character.