R+L=J v.133

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Why can't we all be friends?!

Ok, I had to say that. Board politics is a lot like work politics, or thus said Alia.

Agree, in the end it´s theories... is R+L=J the most likely, yes for some, no for others... man i thought Jon was Robert´s in the very beginning but when jon´s age was established i turned to the Rhaegar possibility, but it may be someone else, but working your brain reading the clues is never a bad thing

One thing i do believe is that, to Jon, is father will always be Ned... i have a foster father and never knew my bio-one, think i have any doubts?? Even Ned being his uncle, it´s either him or no father at all ( at least that´s my mentality )

R+L=J true or false, let´s not be enemies... in the end Jon will be "Jon who so looks like Ned" :)

[Alia of the knife]

Why can't we all be friends?!

Ok, I had to say that. Board politics is a lot like work politics, or thus said Alia.

ETA: in other news, I really hate that the "my content" button is disabled.

Did you know there was a Castle Rock Colorado?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I love some of the discussions here i especially love JonCon's analogies

REALLY???

Because an exboyfriend of mine used to say my analogies and comparisons were shit

;____________________________________;

*sings don't stop believin'. Glee version*

[UnmaskedLurker]

REALLY???

Because an exboyfriend of mine used to say my analogies and comparisons were shit

;____________________________________;

*sings don't stop believin'. Glee version*

Maybe that is why he became an "EX" boyfriend.

[SFDanny]

/cough/

Why are we even having this discussion, people?

A man grown nearly kills a fifteen-year-old kid but he is noble because he takes off his armour beforehands so as "not to have advantage"? He doesn't kill the insolent kid because his betrothed pleaded with him not to?

A D-bag from the very start. Don't.

Brandon likely seduces Ashara Dayne in front of all his wife-to-be's bannermen - lucky the Tully girls aren't there to see it themselves - so, yeah, a D-bag about covers it. The entitled heir who gets everything and everyone he wants. Brandon and Robert are two peas in a pod. They should have had to live a life together and left Lyanna and Catelyn out of it.

On top of that I've always thought the reason he goes to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar has more to do with anger at both Lyanna and Rhaegar for refusing to do as Lord Rickard has told Lyanna she must do than it has anything to do with concern for his sister. If Ned knew from Lyanna she had no love for Robert or interest in marrying him, it is likely the headstrong Lyanna made it no secret to her older brother either. In any case, he had to know from Harrenhal that there where feelings between Lyanna and the Prince. The challenge had more to do with maintaining the Lord's right to decide whom his relatives would marry - rights he wants to keep when he becomes Lord of Winterfell - than the anger of a brother over a sister in danger.

[JonSnow4President]

REALLY???

Because an exboyfriend of mine used to say my analogies and comparisons were shit

;____________________________________;

*sings don't stop believin'. Glee version*

One of your analogies is the single quote I liked so much, I had to make it my signature. F*** (and not the good kind) your ex.

[Ygrain]

Brandon likely seduces Ashara Dayne in front of all his wife-to-be's bannermen - lucky the Tully girls aren't there to see it themselves - so, yeah, a D-bag about covers it. The entitled heir who gets everything and everyone he wants. Brandon and Robert are two peas in a pod. They should have had to live a life together and left Lyanna and Catelyn out of it.

Agreed! They would have got along splendidly.

On top of that I've always thought the reason he goes to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar has more to do with anger at both Lyanna and Rhaegar for refusing to do as Lord Rickard has told Lyanna she must do than it has anything to do with concern for his sister. If Ned knew from Lyanna she had no love for Robert or interest in marrying him, it is likely the headstrong Lyanna made it no secret to her older brother either. In any case, he had to know from Harrenhal that there where feelings between Lyanna and the Prince. The challenge had more to do with maintaining the Lord's right to decide whom his relatives would marry - rights he wants to keep when he becomes Lord of Winterfell - than the anger of a brother over a sister in danger.

That's what I meant by him being possessive. Or, perhaps to give him some good points, he was enraged that he had to marry who he was told (and perhaps didn't entirely lie to Barb that he didn't want to marry Cat?) but Lyanna shunned her responsibility towards family and avoided the marriage.

Furthermore, I think it is not a coincidence that Brandon is one of those unhorsed by Rhaegar. He doesn't seem to be a kind of person who would take a defeat easily, especially from another alpha male.

[Cosmosgravitation]

Someone on reddit noticed a passage possibly hinting at R+L=J I haven't seen mentioned, but I probably just missed it. From a Catelyn chapter in A Clash of Kings:

Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm...

And of course Edric's real father was a king, not Cortnay Penrose.

[J. Stargaryen]

Someone on reddit noticed a passage possibly hinting at R+L=J I haven't seen mentioned, but I probably just missed it. From a Catelyn chapter in A Clash of Kings:

And of course Edric's real father was a king, not Cortnay Penrose.

That's nice. And the user who posted it has an awesome name, bleedmyownbloodraven. Cool Dodgeball reference.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm pretty sure that line about leaving Cat is about going to King's Landing.

Yet Brandon did not actually stop at Riverrun when going to KL. He was on his way, but changed destination. So this line was about the time before, after the duel.

[markg171]

Yet Brandon did not actually stop at Riverrun when going to KL. He was on his way, but changed destination. So this line was about the time before, after the duel.

He fought Littlefinger in Riverrun. So he was already in Riverrun when he left Cat.

[Black Crow]

Why can't we all be friends?!

Ok, I had to say that. Board politics is a lot like work politics, or thus said Alia.

I agree. As the two longest running and largest threads on the board we ought to get along, which is why I posted that apology up above. There is unquestionably a rivalry between us over the ultimate significance of R+L=J and rivalry is, well rivalry, but the fact that we disagree and that we argue things in a different way should not be confused with enmity.

:cheers:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He fought Littlefinger in Riverrun. So he was already in Riverrun when he left Cat.

You are doing this on purpose, right?

In baby steps:

-Brandon duels LF in Riverrun. Next, he leaves to meet up with Rickard and the weeding party coming down from the north.

-On his way back, he learns of Lyanna, and rides for KL instead of Riverrun. When Hoster hears about this, he calls Brandon a 'gallant fool'.

We know that Brandon learned about Lyanna when he was on his way to Riverrun. That's when he travelled to KL instead. He did not stop at Riverrn first. So when Catelyn recalls him saying goodbye, she's thinkjng about the last time they said goodbye. And that's when Brandon went north (to meet up with Rickard), not to KL.

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree. As the two longest running and largest threads on the board we ought to get along, which is why I posted that apology up above. There is unquestionably a rivalry between us over the ultimate significance of R+L=J and rivalry is, well rivalry, but the fact that we disagree and that we argue things in a different way should not be confused with enmity.

:cheers:

Rivalry implies some sort of competition, which seems out of place here. Plenty of RLJers not only dislike Rhaegar, but also fully expect that Jon will never be king. So, sorry but you can't just claim something along the lines of: Jon will never be king = Heresy, while Jon will be king = RLJ thread, because that's a misrepresentation of our diverse views on the subject. Probably Heresy's too. You don't speak for us, sir.

[Ygrain]

I agree. As the two longest running and largest threads on the board we ought to get along, which is why I posted that apology up above. There is unquestionably a rivalry between us over the ultimate significance of R+L=J and rivalry is, well rivalry, but the fact that we disagree and that we argue things in a different way should not be confused with enmity.

This is not an issue of RLJ but of method and approach. From what I've seen, Heresy welcome an "anything goes as long as it is innovative", regardless whether it fits with facts or not, and challenging an unsupported or outright contradictory theory is frowned upon as "narrowmindedness". If that's the way you want it in your threads, fine by me, but I don't see a single reason why your indulgence in fan theories should be peppered by lashing out towards anyone else. It doesn't come as a surprise, though, that some of the names are those who have earned despect for their manners and/or argumentation and got their pet theories shredded.

[Han Snow]

This is not an issue of RLJ but of method and approach. From what I've seen, Heresy welcome an "anything goes as long as it is innovative", regardless whether it fits with facts or not, and challenging an unsupported or outright contradictory theory is frowned upon as "narrowmindedness". If that's the way you want it in your threads, fine by me, but I don't see a single reason why your indulgence in fan theories should be peppered by lashing out towards anyone else. It doesn't come as a surprise, though, that some of the names are those who have earned despect for their manners and/or argumentation and got their pet theories shredded.

Yes. Exactly this.

As an example, a user above named Laughing Storm Reborn says that he/she used to believe that Robert was Jon's father. Is the right approach to this nonsensical notion for other users to treat it as valid and compelling as R+L=J? Should the obvious logical deficiency of such theory not be pointed out to the user proposing it? Because it seems to me that many users want just that. The same type of recognition and validity for nothing other than their own pet nonsense. We are not all the same, and our opinions are not equally valid. If I'm talking crap, I'll welcome every and all attempts from other users to correct me and point me in the right direction, or at least in the one that makes the most sense, logically and as literacy in the case of this board. Nursing ones personal crap and developing resentment towards those users who try to point you in the right way is not how people should behave, yet more than a few do just that.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Yes. Exactly this.

As an example, a user above named Laughing Storm Reborn says that he/she used to believe that Robert was Jon's father. Is the right approach to this nonsensical notion for other users to treat it as valid and compelling as R+L=J? Should the obvious logical deficiency of such theory not be pointed out to the user proposing it? Because it seems to me that many users want just that. The same type of recognition and validity for nothing other than their own pet nonsense. We are not all the same, and our opinions are not equally valid. If I'm talking crap, I'll welcome every and all attempts from other users to correct me and point me in the right direction, or at least in the one that makes the most sense, logically and as literacy in the case of this board. Nursing ones personal crap and developing resentment towards those users who try to point you in the right way is not how people should behave, yet more than a few do just that.

I`m a HE, just for the record :)

Yes , i believed at first robert was his father, because i guess the lyanna angle first and Jon could have been conceived before the rebellion, but then i saw grrm gave us a close date to jon´s birth and THEN i turned away to the R+L=J... but again, it was in the very early stages of reading AGOT, so thinking Robert was the father is not THAT stupid...

People should just point their theory and accept the evidence refuting it, all with polite responses, if the person STILL believes his theory then congratulations if he/she is right in the end

[Han Snow]

I`m a HE, just for the record :)

Yes , i believed at first robert was his father, because i guess the lyanna angle first and Jon could have been conceived before the rebellion, but then i saw grrm gave us a close date to jon´s birth and THEN i turned away to the R+L=J... but again, it was in the very early stages of reading AGOT, so thinking Robert was the father is not THAT stupid...

People should just point their theory and accept the evidence refuting it, all with polite responses, if the person STILL believes his theory then congratulations if he/she is right in the end

I was just using that as an example. Nothing personal. But, first thing, independent of anything else is why would Ned keep a secret that Robert is Jon's father? What is the point? Than we move on to other reasons.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or, perhaps to give him some good points, he was enraged that he had to marry who he was told (and perhaps didn't entirely lie to Barb that he didn't want to marry Cat?) but Lyanna shunned her responsibility towards family and avoided the marriage.

Nah. He definitely wanted to marry Cat. Why wouldn't he? She was hot, nice, smart, interesting (according to the Cerseisexual Jaime) and she represented power. What Brandon probably didn't want was to keep it to one bed.

What's the excuse married men mostly give to bed other women? "we're separating" or "we don't talk the same language". The most idiots (or the most naive) buy it to justify adultery. "Oh, is not wrong because they don't love each other". Barbrey seemed to have been a good gal, fully aware that their affair should have ended with Brandon's marriage or betrothal. Brandon probably thought otherwise. So, how to justify it? "I'm forced to this, baby. You're the one I really want to be!".

[Ygrain]

Nah. He definitely wanted to marry Cat. Why wouldn't he? She was hot, nice, smart, interesting (according to the Cerseisexual Jaime) and she represented power. What Brandon probably didn't want was to keep it to one bed.

What's the excuse married men mostly give to bed other women? "we're separating" or "we don't talk the same language". The most idiots (or the most naive) buy it to justify adultery. "Oh, is not wrong because they don't love each other". Barbrey seemed to have been a good gal, fully aware that their affair should have ended with Brandon's marriage or betrothal. Brandon probably thought otherwise. So, how to justify it? "I'm forced to this, baby. You're the one I really want to be!".

Well, I do think that this is way more probable, I just don't want to demonize Brandon or something when we know so little about him. I do think that what he told Barb was just the usual crap, first to get her to bed, then to end the affair, but I am willing to give him a benefit of doubt, the off chance that he might have been sincere.

However, even if he was sincere, it still doesn't preclude a wee bit of patriarchal/ machistic rage of "I had to do as I was told whereas she eloped!"