R+L=J v.133

[Ser Leftwich]

Simply from the duel:

- We knew Brandon was honourable. He took off his armour when he saw that Littlefinger didn't have as much as he did. He leveled the playing field between the two of them when he didn't have too

- That he cared for Catelyn. She asked him to spare Littlefinger's life and he said he would when we know from Ned that Brandon did not like Littlefinger and therefore probably would have killed him otherwise. Yet he agreed to spare him because Cat asked him too

- He kept his word. It was immediately obvious that Brandon far outskilled Littlefinger as he had him bleeding for a dozen wounds within seconds. Yet he called out for Littlefinger to yield multiple times until Littlefinger was finally too wounded to continue. Brandon could have killed him, but he kept his word not to.

- That Edmure squired for him over Littlefinger. The fact that Edmure chose Brandon over Littlefinger, a boy he'd known almost all of his life, and the fact that we know that Brandon didn't like Littlefinger, shows that Brandon was close to his in laws. He'd spent time amongst them

He's the typical honourable Stark in AGOT. Then in the later books, he's not.

- He calls for Rhaegar to come out and die. This is vastly different than the man who fought honourably in a duel with Littlefinger.

- He seemingly cheats on his betrothed multiple times (Barbrey and Ashara). This is different than before when we are painted a picture of him caring for Cat

- He doesn't keep his word as evidenced by this cheating. He was betrothed to her. This is different than him keeping his word to Cat in the duel. He doesn't keep his word anymore

- Doesn't want to marry Cat according to Barbrey when he seemingly cared for her before

So yes, I think it's a retcon and not simply fleshing out his character. He goes from being an honourable man who keeps his word and cares for Cat, to being a guy who isn't honourable, doesn't keep his word, and doesn't care for Cat. He's a completely different character.

-Brandon took off his armor because it was easier for him to fight with less on and knew he would have no problem with LF. A la Bronn in the same book.

- He spared LF because it is likely bad manners to kill your father-in-law-to-be's ward. He wanted to impress Catelyn. Also, the whole 'to first blood/chivalry' thing that nobles practice.

- Or Edmure was ordered to squire for Brandon by Hoster. We only know that he did, not that he chose to.

Everything that happens with Brandon at the duel has more than one way to interpret it. It is not a retcon.

ETA: "When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal." - AGoT p. 440

Doesn't sound like he was being that careful if Cat "was certain that the wound was mortal."

[Ygrain]

/cough/

Why are we even having this discussion, people?

A man grown nearly kills a fifteen-year-old kid but he is noble because he takes off his armour beforehands so as "not to have advantage"? He doesn't kill the insolent kid because his betrothed pleaded with him not to?

A D-bag from the very start. Don't.

[Prince of the North]

I don't know...my impression of Brandon Stark from the beginning was mixed. I mean, I thought his riding full-bore into King's Landing and threatening the Crown Prince was incredibly stupid from the moment I first learned of it :dunno: Actually, learning more of the details surrounding his duel with Littlefinger makes me think more highly of him than I did before. And I agree with those who don't think he's been ret-conned - it's not that Brandon's character was ret-conned so much as it is simply more of his character being revealed over time.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Actually, in aGoT, Cat remembers that Brandon had to leave for something. How odd that GRRM mentions it. It had to have some importance. He was going to get married very soon, he could have stayed in Riverrun. Yet, he told her he would leave for some time but never told her where he was going. That probably means he was up to no good.

Actually, Catelyn doesn't express whether she knew where he was going or not.

"I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return."

He could have told her right before. "I have to visit ... first. I shall not be long, my lady." She could have known.

And he won't have been gone for long. He died only a few short days before he was supposed to marry Catelyn, and Brandon first, and Rickard only after Brandons arrest, would have had to travel to KL. That takes plenty of time already. Time for a big "mission" beforehand, doesn't seem to have been there.

Still, Petyr is send away from Riverrun, while Brandon departs to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north.

This is how the app puts it. If Brandon had an alternative motive, I think it was something small. He couldn't go 'off the radar' for long anyway. Rickard would want to know where Brandon had been, and Brandon would have had to tell him.

Honestly...I don't remember, to answer the first. It's been awhile since I did a re-read of the HH-RR incidents. I'll go with you. I still think Brandon leaving on an errand is hella suspect, though.

Ok, I couldn't take the uncertainty, so I looked it up.

Their grandfather, old Lord Rickard, had gone as well, with his son Brandon who was Father's brother, and two hundred of his best men. None had ever returned.

To me, at least, that doesn't sound like some of the two hundred returned north in between.

As to the 'errand', see above.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

/cough/

Why are we even having this discussion, people?

A man grown nearly kills a fifteen-year-old kid but he is noble because he takes off his armour beforehands so as "not to have advantage"? He doesn't kill the insolent kid because his betrothed pleaded with him not to?

A D-bag from the very start. Don't.

This is how I feel as well.

[J. Stargaryen]

Its like the work place with such pettiness.

I may not like a theory, or agree with it, but it never occurs to me to dislike the poster.

I stay here a lot because the other threads are more like opinion polls that eventually peter out.

Yep. This.

I have on rare occasions. There is some interesting discussion to be found in Heresy, particularly stuff concerning the NW, Wall, and beyond, although the more 'out there' heresies are not to my taste. I agree with you that there is this passive aggressive tone within the thread what with the repeated references and dismissal of 'the faithful' or 'that other place'. All in all, Heresy is not quite as welcoming and open to the free exchange of ideas as some Heretics like to claim.

ETA. And don't get me started on the Compendium of Theories. ;)

What's really disappointing is that those are comments from Black Crow, the organizer of those threads. And it's an ongoing thing with him. I mean really, he can't just refer to the thread as RLJ? As Alia said, such pettiness.

As for the next part, this. Heresy, where everybody is welcome. Even 'the faithful' from 'that other place'!

My take on the Compendium thread, fwiw: Good idea, poor execution.

Ah, yes. Tried one time and was definitely not impressed - neither by thoughts nor by attitudes. And we are now being the topic of discussion? Oh, I am totally flattered.

Agreed. I've already stated my displeasure with their attitudes, but I haven't said anything about their thoughts. Speaking generally, I think they overrate the notion of open mindedness. There is a point at which it turns from virtue to vice. Then again, I'm not even sure if considering other possibilities in the face of really good reasons not to actually constitutes open mindedness. Rather more like the opposite to me. It's being close minded to truth and reason.

Also, I'm sure you'll recall our warm welcome in the Curious Case threads a while back. Threads that were basically just Heresy versions of the R+L=J theory.

I read it occasionally, and whenever I do, sooner or later this thread gets at the center of their conversations, and not in a flattering way. It's truly ironic that Heresy is suppose to be a welcoming place to all and everyone, yet most of the users their have an agenda, and that agenda is mostly to bash and think of 100 different ridiculous ways to disprove R+L=J, because for some reason it obviously bothers them very, very much. But sometimes there is a rare genuinely good insight into the books to be found there. Sometimes.

I might only disagree that it's "most of the users" who have an agenda. I'm not sure if that's the case. To me it's more like a vocal minority, but I may be mistaken.

I read and participate in Heresy regularly and I have to say that it is not an anti-rlj thread. In fact a lot of the participants of the thread believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents, though they all don't agree on the outcome or importance of said parentage. And that is the biggest issue with this threads ideas; that Jon is the story and the book is filled with foreshadowing that he is/will be the trueborn Targaryen King. I know, not everyone here agrees on Jon but that is the main concensus. Until recently the topic was not really discussed in Heresy and one reason it is now is to allow the ideas and thoughts to be worked out 'aloud' with other posters, without crucifixion for disagreeing with the mainstream. In that way these threads differ in a big way. Yeah it gets a little crackpotted, but everyone can agree to disagree, including newcomers and outsiders, in a civilsed manner. Most of the time.

I certainly never claimed that Heresy is anti-RLJ theory. My point was that some of them really push an anti-RLJ thread agenda. As you can see from the above comments, I'm not the only one who feels this way. As for the civility you mention, yeah you're fairly civil to each other. But what about the people from that other place?

If people get "crucified" in this thread, it's for making poorly supported arguments. It's true that we're not really inclined to indulge non starters very often, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Yeah, you're not going to gain a lot of traction in here arguing a year long pregnancy. So? But at the same time, we've spent countless threads discussing what I'm sure many of us felt were absurd ideas, simply because they were at least technically possible. That seems fairly open minded to me. The fact that we didn't end up convinced by these arguments does not contradict that. It only means we felt the case was lacking. From my point of view, that seems very fair.

Speaking for myself, though I wouldn't be surprised if lots of others agree, I would drop R+L=J in a heartbeat if I became convinced that there was a better theory out there. Likewise for aspects of R+L=J which I currently believe, or think are most likely to be true.

[Black Crow]

Good evening, "in another place" is actually a courtesy. The British Parliament is made up of two houses; Lords and Commons, just as the US Congress has its House of Representatives and Senate. As a matter of courtesy when a member of one house is referring to something pertaining to the other it is invariably referred to as "in another place".

If I have occasion to refer to those who believe that this story revolves around R+L=J as the faithful that is simply because it certainly appears on this thread to be an article of faith.

If in using these terms you consider that I have offended you, I apologise.

[wolfmaid7]

Yep. This.

What's really disappointing is that those are comments from Black Crow, the organizer of those threads. And it's an ongoing thing with him. I mean really, he can't just refer to the thread as RLJ? As Alia said, such pettiness.

As for the next part, this. Heresy, where everybody is welcome. Even 'the faithful' from 'that other place'!

My take on the Compendium thread, fwiw: Good idea, poor execution.

Agreed. I've already stated my displeasure with their attitudes, but I haven't said anything about their thoughts. Speaking generally, I think they overrate the notion of open mindedness. There is a point at which it turns from virtue to vice. Then again, I'm not even sure if considering other possibilities in the face of really good reasons not to actually constitutes open mindedness. Rather more like the opposite to me. It's being close minded to truth and reason.

Also, I'm sure you'll recall our warm welcome in the Curious Case threads a while back. Threads that were basically just Heresy versions of the R+L=J theory.

I might only disagree that it's "most of the users" who have an agenda. I'm not sure if that's the case. To me it's more like a vocal minority, but I may be mistaken.

I certainly never claimed that Heresy is anti-RLJ theory. My point was that some of them really push an anti-RLJ thread agenda. As you can see from the above comments, I'm not the only one who feels this way. As for the civility you mention, yeah you're fairly civil to each other. But what about the people from that other place?

If people get "crucified" in this thread, it's for making poorly supported arguments. It's true that we're not really inclined to indulge non starters very often, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Yeah, you're not going to gain a lot of traction in here arguing a year long pregnancy. So? But at the same time, we've spent countless threads discussing what I'm sure many of us felt were absurd ideas, simply because they were at least technically possible. That seems fairly open minded to me. The fact that we didn't end up convinced by these arguments does not contradict that. It only means we felt the case was lacking. From my point of view, that seems very fair.

Speaking for myself, though I wouldn't be surprised if lots of others agree, I would drop R+L=J in a heartbeat if I became convinced that there was a better theory out there. Likewise for aspects of R+L=J which I currently believe, or think are most likely to be true.

I think there is a misconception here in asserting and anti-RLJ agenda.90% of Heretics believe R+L=J including Black Crow.What Flagons said about this thread in terms of Jon "being" the crux of this story isn't anti the thread.It is a fact that you all believe RLJ is interwoven in every aspect of the story to the point it overwhelms the narrative.

Now you are certainly within your right to take offense to something as trivial as referring to RJLers as the "faithful" which isn't realy a dig ,but put that on a scale and compare that to how the majority of you "bully" and i'm being serious now actually bully people for thinking different. It is aggressive and unwelcoming and it is a reputation that you,not all of you but the majority are giving yourselves.

I love some of the discussions here i especially love JonCon's analogies and while not completely convinced by RLJ on a whole because to me there are inaccuracies that you guys have't answered or your analysis to me don't make sense and you probably won't answer it it doesn't matter. But as one of the threads that are frequented by new people with questions or veterans with questions you guys can be brutal.I mean immediately referring to people as trolls,or questioning their reading comprehension instead to me is a lot worse than giving you guys pet names which really ain't an insult if you look at the root.

Heresy is different in that it "allows" people to air what they are thinking maybe there is something there maybe no but atlease they can air it in an enviroment that is welcoming.You will never, ever get any Heretic calling someone a troll or ignoring someone because they adamatly believe in what they are saying.You will get arguements and if someone says something that is hurtful you bet your bottom dollar there will be an apology and an attempt to resolve it so there is no hard feelings.

There have been posters from here that post when there is a discussion about R+L=J and they bring the same climate as if its taboo to question this theory.So if as you say you "don't think its a problem to crucify people for their arguements" then that is a problem.

You will find there are people who don't respect you guys and they are vocal about it because of the treatment given and that is at your posters feet.The highlighted blue is a problem and this statement is echoed when there is a crossover of some of your posters,it's almost an insult that people have questions and it shouldn't be.R+L=J is a good theory,but it isn't air tight there are huge holes in it and to echo Picard humans love mystery and we will always be drawn to the unanswered.The journey in just figuring out or dispelling is what it's about.

So i guess what i'm saying is lighten up on the bullying because "Respect breeds Respect" and for any statements said on Heresy that may have caused grief on behalf of Black Crow and the other Heretics i apologize.

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting discussion. Yes, I don't think Brandon Stark was always a giant d-bag nor was he always a complete paragon of virtue - but a bit of both. Isn't one of the major things we all love about ASoIaF the fact that Martin doesn't write in absolutes or write two-dimensional characters? We love that it's at least a bit more realistic in that sense, right?

I've had sort of the same impression of Lady Barbrey Dustin. I think she does harbor some deep resentments of the Starks. Specifically, I think she legitimately was an unrequited lover of Brandon's and I think she quite understandably resents that her husband went south with Eddard Stark and all she ever got back was his horse. On the other hand, I think she's still a very loyal Northerner and does not want to see it come under the rule of the Boltons. I don't see any reason why she can't both have some understandable beefs with the Starks and still be a loyal Northerner :dunno:

Exactly.

I don't think Brandon was a boy scout, and seriously compare him to Oberyn in temperment- sometimes charming and kind, entitled, (as most men of his station were), and cruel on occasion as well.

His reaction reminds me a lot of when I was a little girl, and got away from my dad in a department store.

It was the ONLY time in my life he ever spanked me, and I was no easy kid.

But he was so scared, he overreacted. Now it didn't cost him his life, but it might get him put in jail today.

I think that is what happened with Brandon, and he didn't call Lyanna because he didn't hold her responsible, he held Rhaegar responsible, which is why he challenged him.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

In the torney of harrenhall art on the world book, Brandon seemed even more pissed than Robert, who acted more surprised... well then we know his heart hardened towards Rhaegar wich sugest he wasn´t expecting such an afront from his cousin...

Point being, Brandon was more hot-blooded than Bob, wich says alot of the wolf-blood Lyanna had aswell

[RumHam]

In the torney of harrenhall art on the world book, Brandon seemed even more pissed than Robert, who acted more surprised... well then we know his heart hardened towards Rhaegar wich sugest he wasn´t expecting such an afront from his cousin...

Point being, Brandon was more hot-blooded than Bob, wich says alot of the wolf-blood Lyanna had aswell

Unfortunately we can't use the art to draw conclusions like that. Ran has explained that while Martin had a lot of input on some of the drawings, the artists were allowed artistic license.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Unfortunately we can't use the art to draw conclusions like that. Ran has explained that while Martin had a lot of input on some of the drawings, the artists were allowed artistic license.

The heart mention and brandon being more active than bob was in the text of the book, but we can say it was the maester´s input or a false witness i guess.

It´s the only piece of art depicting young bob, it´s like george forbids bob to be seen in his non-fat state lol

Nevertheless Brandon always seemed to me, a little more hot blooded than Robert, but that´s me...

[J. Stargaryen]

Good evening, "in another place" is actually a courtesy. The British Parliament is made up of two houses; Lords and Commons, just as the US Congress has its House of Representatives and Senate. As a matter of courtesy when a member of one house is referring to something pertaining to the other it is invariably referred to as "in another place".

If I have occasion to refer to those who believe that this story revolves around R+L=J as the faithful that is simply because it certainly appears on this thread to be an article of faith.

If in using these terms you consider that I have offended you, I apologise.

I think there is a misconception here in asserting and anti-RLJ agenda.90% of Heretics believe R+L=J including Black Crow.What Flagons said about this thread in terms of Jon "being" the crux of this story isn't anti the thread.It is a fact that you all believe RLJ is interwoven in every aspect of the story to the point it overwhelms the narrative.

Now you are certainly within your right to take offense to something as trivial as referring to RJLers as the "faithful" which isn't realy a dig ,but put that on a scale and compare that to how the majority of you "bully" and i'm being serious now actually bully people for thinking different. It is aggressive and unwelcoming and it is a reputation that you,not all of you but the majority are giving yourselves.

I love some of the discussions here i especially love JonCon's analogies and while not completely convinced by RLJ on a whole because to me there are inaccuracies that you guys have't answered or your analysis to me don't make sense and you probably won't answer it it doesn't matter. But as one of the threads that are frequented by new people with questions or veterans with questions you guys can be brutal.I mean immediately referring to people as trolls,or questioning their reading comprehension instead to me is a lot worse than giving you guys pet names which really ain't an insult if you look at the root.

Heresy is different in that it "allows" people to air what they are thinking maybe there is something there maybe no but atlease they can air it in an enviroment that is welcoming.You will never, ever get any Heretic calling someone a troll or ignoring someone because they adamatly believe in what they are saying.You will get arguements and if someone says something that is hurtful you bet your bottom dollar there will be an apology and an attempt to resolve it so there is no hard feelings.

There have been posters from here that post when there is a discussion about R+L=J and they bring the same climate as if its taboo to question this theory.So if as you say you "don't think its a problem to crucify people for their arguements" then that is a problem.

You will find there are people who don't respect you guys and they are vocal about it because of the treatment given and that is at your posters feet.The highlighted blue is a problem and this statement is echoed when there is a crossover of some of your posters,it's almost an insult that people have questions and it shouldn't be.R+L=J is a good theory,but it isn't air tight there are huge holes in it and to echo Picard humans love mystery and we will always be drawn to the unanswered.The journey in just figuring out or dispelling is what it's about.

So i guess what i'm saying is lighten up on the bullying because "Respect breeds Respect" and for any statements said on Heresy that may have caused grief on behalf of Black Crow and the other Heretics i apologize.

Way to come in here and totally prove me wrong guys! :thumbsup: I'm not sure I could have scripted better responses from Heretics in order to support my initial post on the subject.

BC's apology rings hollow following his condescending "article of faith" comment. Also, spare me the courtesy BS. If anyone is unclear why that kind of language is rude and disrespectful, consider it in terms of something much less trivial than a message board; e.g., race, nationality, etc. It's a way to otherize. There's simply no reason for it, especially from someone who organizes a pinned thread. And that's on top of the fact that he apparently thinks he's setting up some R+L=J/Heresy dichotomy (rivalry?), which others have claimed is not the case.

Sadly, mocking this thread is a way to get in the good graces of Heretics. It reminds me of the lickspittle lords who would mock Tywin to Aerys II, in order to curry favor with the king. - TWoIaF, Aerys II.

There's so much wrong with Wolfmaid's post. I'm just going to touch on the last point, because otherwise this will end up turning into a wall of text. Respect breeds respect. Yes it does. But it sounds strange coming from a Heretic, considering that people in that thread are constantly disrespectful of this thread and its regulars, not the other way around. We don't talk about Heresy here. In fact, in my 2.5+ years as a member here this is the most we've ever talked about Heresy, to the best of my recollection. As far as I can tell, this thread is discussed at least this much in every version of Heresy. Now, that might not be an absolute truth, but since I was made aware of this behavior, I've never read through more than a few pages of a Heresy without seeing a handful of negative comments directed at this thread. While my one-two-skip-a-few method of reading those threads might not provide a completely accurate portrait, what are the odds that the tone is really much (any?) different in many of the ones I didn't read? Not to mention, I don't think I've ever read an entire thread. At least not since in the past year or so. So, I feel like it's probably an accurate statistical sampling.

Now, you might counter that we have been rude to people who came in here. Some Heretics, some not. Well, that's a two-way street. And it usually gets dealt with then and there.

Something to consider, R+L=J exists as a theory completely independent of this thread. You guys are capable of discussing the theory without the passive aggressive slights directed at us.

[Alia of the knife]

The heart mention and brandon being more active than bob was in the text of the book, but we can say it was the maester´s input or a false witness i guess.

It´s the only piece of art depicting young bob, it´s like george forbids bob to be seen in his non-fat state lol

Nevertheless Brandon always seemed to me, a little more hot blooded than Robert, but that´s me...

It's the "Sonny Corleone" affect. :thumbsup:

I'm only half joking about that, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of Martins inspiration for Brandon was Sonny from "the "Godfather" (Not that I'm suggesting that the dreamy Silver Prince would hurt Lyanna), but just a parallel in terms of the classic hothead.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sonny+corleone+youtube&FORM=VIRE11#view=detail&mid=59B0282018B4BF2F415259B0282018B4BF2F4152

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

It's the "Sonny Corleone" affect. :thumbsup:

I'm only half joking about that, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of Martins inspiration for Brandon was Sonny from "the "Godfather" (Not that I'm suggesting that the dreamy Silver Prince would hurt Lyanna), but just a parallel in terms of the classic hothead.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sonny+corleone+youtube&FORM=VIRE11#view=detail&mid=59B0282018B4BF2F415259B0282018B4BF2F4152

Let´s say this... Brandon seemed more pissed off than the guy who probably thought..

"My parents died trying to find you a bride, for nothing... Now you´re married with two kids, but you want someone else... you can get EVERY girl in the kingdoms, and who do you choose??... the one I LOVE"

Brandon showing more anger than this guy = HOT WOLF BLOOD MODE

[wolfmaid7]

Way to come in here and totally prove me wrong guys! :thumbsup: I'm not sure I could have scripted better responses from Heretics in order to support my initial post on the subject.

BC's apology rings hollow following his condescending "article of faith" comment. Also, spare me the courtesy BS. If anyone is unclear why that kind of language is rude and disrespectful, consider it in terms of something much less trivial than a message board; e.g., race, nationality, etc. It's a way to otherize. There's simply no reason for it, especially from someone who organizes a pinned thread. And that's on top of the fact that he apparently thinks he's setting up some R+L=J/Heresy dichotomy (rivalry?), which others have claimed is not the case.

Sadly, mocking this thread is a way to get in the good graces of Heretics. It reminds me of the lickspittle lords who would mock Tywin to Aerys II, in order to curry favor with the king. - TWoIaF, Aerys II.

There's so much wrong with Wolfmaid's post. I'm just going to touch on the last point, because otherwise this will end up turning into a wall of text. Respect breeds respect. Yes it does. But it sounds strange coming from a Heretic, considering that people in that thread are constantly disrespectful of this thread and its regulars, not the other way around. We don't talk about Heresy here. In fact, in my 2.5+ years as a member here this is the most we've ever talked about Heresy, to the best of my recollection. As far as I can tell, this thread is discussed at least this much in every version of Heresy. Now, that might not be an absolute truth, but since I was made aware of this behavior, I've never read through more than a few pages of a Heresy without seeing a handful of negative comments directed at this thread. While my one-two-skip-a-few method of reading those threads might not provide a completely accurate portrait, what are the odds that the tone is really much (any?) different in many of the ones I didn't read? Not to mention, I don't think I've ever read an entire thread. At least not since in the past year or so. So, I feel like it's probably an accurate statistical sampling.

Now, you might counter that we have been rude to people who came in here. Some Heretics, some not. Well, that's a two-way street. And it usually gets dealt with then and there.

Something to consider, R+L=J exists as a theory completely independent of this thread. You guys are capable of discussing the theory without the passive aggressive slights directed at us.

I don't wish to take up much of your time.You can PM me or not to inform me what's wrong with my posts.However, i'll make this short.

J.Starg: I have run the Heretics guide and keeping track of it's content since Heresy 1 and i can say with absolute surety that "This thread" has not been the subject of 99.99% of Hersey.I think we have more pressing matters to discuss so that statement by you is incorrect.

As i stated before 90% of the Heretics believe in RLJ and for the longest time and still- the majority still does.However,in the case of "this thread" it is like going to a Diner and having a bad experiance, people talk and that is what happened.Your treatment of people left a bad taste in their mouths occassionally comments are made and as i stated in my post before i concede that there are a few -very few- that may make a jibe or two ,it is not the norm.

And i fear whoever "made you aware" just came across those who don't have a respect for your thread on a whole because they were shown none.If you read Heresy or not is not a gain or loss to us i don't know why that statement was even relevant.This is strictly the backlash of what happens when you are not kind to people whose opinions differ,it comes back around.I read some people's post here because i really like what they do ad how they do it and will keep popping in to read "their" stuff and ignore the rest.

You can take my blue bolded as something to consider yourself or not but as you pointed out in your previous post i get the feeling that might not happen.No hard feelings though.

"If people get "crucified" in this thread, it's for making poorly supported arguments. It's true that we're not really inclined to indulge non starters very often, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

Then again, I'm not even sure if considering other possibilities in the face of really good reasons not to actually constitutes open mindedness.

[markg171]

-Brandon took off his armor because it was easier for him to fight with less on and knew he would have no problem with LF. A la Bronn in the same book.

- He spared LF because it is likely bad manners to kill your father-in-law-to-be's ward. He wanted to impress Catelyn. Also, the whole 'to first blood/chivalry' thing that nobles practice.

- Or Edmure was ordered to squire for Brandon by Hoster. We only know that he did, not that he chose to.

Everything that happens with Brandon at the duel has more than one way to interpret it. It is not a retcon.

ETA: "When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal." - AGoT p. 440

Doesn't sound like he was being that careful if Cat "was certain that the wound was mortal."

- Why then did Brandon show up fully armoured, if as you say, he planned all along to fight without it?

- Brandon scored dozens of blows within seconds. He'd had his first blood and was calling for surrender. This is a point in Brandon's favour according to you. It's only after Littlefinger wouldn't that Brandon decided to end it

- That still doesn't change the fact that Ned says that Brandon didn't like Littlefinger. Brandon would have to know Littlefinger to not like him. Likewise Edmure squiring for Brandon suggests that he knew him too. Brandon wasn't this mysterious figure to the Tullys

Some things could be an expansion of his character. But what we see from the duel, which is our biggest look at Brandon's character in AGOT, showcases an honourable Stark. It's later that this changes in the later novels to basically directly this first impression which is why I think that it's a retcon.

/cough/

Why are we even having this discussion, people?

A man grown nearly kills a fifteen-year-old kid but he is noble because he takes off his armour beforehands so as "not to have advantage"? He doesn't kill the insolent kid because his betrothed pleaded with him not to?

A D-bag from the very start. Don't.

Simply because people have different opinions than you doesn't make them trolls.

Actually, Catelyn doesn't express whether she knew where he was going or not.

"I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return."

He could have told her right before. "I have to visit ... first. I shall not be long, my lady." She could have known.

And he won't have been gone for long. He died only a few short days before he was supposed to marry Catelyn, and Brandon first, and Rickard only after Brandons arrest, would have had to travel to KL. That takes plenty of time already. Time for a big "mission" beforehand, doesn't seem to have been there.

Still, Petyr is send away from Riverrun, while Brandon departs to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north.

This is how the app puts it. If Brandon had an alternative motive, I think it was something small. He couldn't go 'off the radar' for long anyway. Rickard would want to know where Brandon had been, and Brandon would have had to tell him.

Ok, I couldn't take the uncertainty, so I looked it up.

Their grandfather, old Lord Rickard, had gone as well, with his son Brandon who was Father's brother, and two hundred of his best men. None had ever returned.

To me, at least, that doesn't sound like some of the two hundred returned north in between.

As to the 'errand', see above.

I'm pretty sure that line about leaving Cat is about going to King's Landing.

[Alia of the knife]

Let´s say this... Brandon seemed more pissed off than the guy who probably thought..

"My parents died trying to find you a bride, for nothing... Now you´re married with two kids, but you want someone else... you can get EVERY girl in the kingdoms, and who do you choose??... the one I LOVE"

Brandon showing more anger than this guy = HOT WOLF BLOOD MODE

Robert probably didn't "love" Lyanna until it looked like someone else wanted her, but then again, given the times, the crowning also called Lyannas reputation into question as Rhaegar was married, thus her House, and thus Brandons reaction as a representative of their House.

(Incidently, in those days, the only way betrothals were broken were by the man, and on the grounds of accusations of infidelity).

It also seems as if Brandon and Lyanna were close, maybe not as close as she and Benjen, but as Barbary called them, "a pair of Centaurs." I know Ned loved Lyanna, but were they close?

He was being fostered in the Vale, so he was likely gone from WF since the age of 7/8.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Well Ned of all people says Robert loved her even more (what kind of love is up to grabs), after saying he loved his sister with all his heart... but heck, we will know it all in the end

But the focus of brotherly love to lyanna is on ned because brandon is dead and benjen gone from the books the majority of the time, despite dying in his hands, Ned probably was the brother she interacted the least... he was in the Vale with robert and jon most of his young life, he seems to love robert as a "blood brother" more than his real siblings...

So yeah, i think Lyanna loved them equally, but knew Brandon and Benjen more than Ned, and probably vice-versa

[BearQueen87]

Why can't we all be friends?!

Ok, I had to say that. Board politics is a lot like work politics, or thus said Alia.

ETA: in other news, I really hate that the "my content" button is disabled.