R+L=J v.133

[J. Stargaryen]

Does anybody here ever read the Heresy threads? When I first joined the forums I read them for a time. Can't recall if I ever posted in them or not. They weren't really my thing so I stopped reading them and didn't give them a lot of thought for a long time. Probably about a year ago (?) certain kinds of comments were brought to my attention, and ever since then I've popped in to read some of the posts from time to time.

The reason I ask has to do with the "certain kinds of comments" I referenced. That is to say, Heretics sure do focus a lot of their time and energy discussing this thread, including its regulars. At least in general terms. And, as you might have guessed, not in the most flattering of ways. When you couple that with the way Heretics tend to behave when they post here ... I dunno, it almost seems like some of them are kind of obsessed with this thread.

We're certainly not immune to criticism. We're human after all, and therefore imperfect. But whatever criticisms can be legitimately leveled against us, no one can say we spend a good chunk of our time in passive-aggressive discussion of a pinned thread. Although if we ever go down that road, I nominate the Compendium of Theories thread. ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Does anybody here ever read the Heresy threads? When I first joined the forums I read them for a time. Can't recall if I ever posted in them or not. They weren't really my thing so I stopped reading them and didn't give them a lot of thought for a long time. Probably about a year ago (?) certain kinds of comments were brought to my attention, and ever since then I've popped in to read some of the posts from time to time.

The reason I ask has to do with the "certain kinds of comments" I referenced. That is to say, Heretics sure do focus a lot of their time and energy discussing this thread, including its regulars. At least in general terms. And, as you might have guessed, not in the most flattering of ways. When you couple that with the way Heretics tend to behave when they post here ... I dunno, it almost seems like some of them are kind of obsessed with this thread.

We're certainly not immune to criticism. We're human after all, and therefore imperfect. But whatever criticisms can be legitimately leveled against us, no one can say we spend a good chunk of our time in passive-aggressive discussion of a pinned thread. Although if we ever go down that road, I nominate the Compendium of Theories thread. ;)

Its like the work place with such pettiness.

I may not like a theory, or agree with it, but it never occurs to me to dislike the poster.

I stay here a lot because the other threads are more like opinion polls that eventually peter out.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To go back slightly, could it be that Brandon is to Barbrey what Aegon IV was to Casella Vaith? Casella was Aegons mistress for a few years, until he delivered her to his father for her to await execution. Casella would remain unwed, believing that Aegon was her one true love.

Barbrey did marry, although that marriage did not last long. And she never remarried after his death, which is slightly curious.

Both women had an affair with a man they seem to have been obsessed with for quite some time after the affair ended. Casella seems to have remained obsessed for the remainder of her life, IIRC. Both women came to be rulers of a seat of their own, but did not (re)marry to get trueborn children who could inherit.

And in both cases, the man they had the affair with knew his way around women pretty well, and wasn't shy about it.

Disclaimer: I am in no way linking Brandon to Aegon IV, purely Casella to Barbrey.

[Mithras]

Why am I looking at the Winchester guys? I mean...I approve of the Winchesters and their need to be overly emotional basketcases while killing things. I also approve when they take off their shirts....but why am I looking at them for Ashara?

Are you trying to say that Ashara slept with Sam or Dean? Gotta be Sam. Poor Castiel would be a wreck if it was Dean

I think we do not have much conclusive evidence for Ashara sleeping with a Stark (or two :eek:) at Harrenhal. Howland was obviously checking her out all the night. And nowhere it is implied that the crannogmen are ugly people. Howland most probably has brown hair and green eyes. That can make him a tiny Jensen or Jared who are all in the spectrum.

Don't you think it is strange that Howland recorded every person Ashara danced with that night? So, perhaps Ashara was equally infatuated by him. The crannogmen also have the mystery element. I think they are exotic sight to most of the people in the Realm, especially for the Dornish.

[Consigliere]

Does anybody here ever read the Heresy threads? When I first joined the forums I read them for a time. Can't recall if I ever posted in them or not. They weren't really my thing so I stopped reading them and didn't give them a lot of thought for a long time. Probably about a year ago (?) certain kinds of comments were brought to my attention, and ever since then I've popped in to read some of the posts from time to time.

The reason I ask has to do with the "certain kinds of comments" I referenced. That is to say, Heretics sure do focus a lot of their time and energy discussing this thread, including its regulars. At least in general terms. And, as you might have guessed, not in the most flattering of ways. When you couple that with the way Heretics tend to behave when they post here ... I dunno, it almost seems like some of them are kind of obsessed with this thread.

We're certainly not immune to criticism. We're human after all, and therefore imperfect. But whatever criticisms can be legitimately leveled against us, no one can say we spend a good chunk of our time in passive-aggressive discussion of a pinned thread. Although if we ever go down that road, I nominate the Compendium of Theories thread. ;)

I have on rare occasions. There is some interesting discussion to be found in Heresy, particularly stuff concerning the NW, Wall, and beyond, although the more 'out there' heresies are not to my taste. I agree with you that there is this passive aggressive tone within the thread what with the repeated references and dismissal of 'the faithful' or 'that other place'. All in all, Heresy is not quite as welcoming and open to the free exchange of ideas as some Heretics like to claim.

ETA. And don't get me started on the Compendium of Theories. ;)

[BearQueen87]

I think we do not have much conclusive evidence for Ashara sleeping with a Stark (or two :eek:) at Harrenhal. Howland was obviously checking her out all the night. And nowhere it is implied that the crannogmen are ugly people. Howland most probably has brown hair and green eyes. That can make him a tiny Jensen or Jared who are all in the spectrum.

Don't you think it is strange that Howland recorded every person Ashara danced with that night? So, perhaps Ashara was equally infatuated by him. The crannogmen also have the mystery element. I think they are exotic sight to most of the people in the Realm, especially for the Dornish.

....very tiny. I mean, I have brown hair and green eyes (granted, wrong gender... unless you think the pleasing aesthetic of brown hair and green eyes is only found in the male species) but...saying that all brown haired and green eyed people look like Jensen or Jared, especially a fictitious character who hasn't appeared in the series in present day yet..., still seems stretch-tastic. I never said cragnonmen were ugly just that there is a world of difference between your average brown haired, green eyed guy....and Jensen Ackles.

Do I think that Howland was attracted to Ashara? Sure why not. It could also be that Howland has a great memory (like Barristan remembers everything he ate at the feast after he was knighted, but can't remember what he ate for late night--the big moments stick with us) Do I think anything came of it? No probably not. Do I think it's far more likely that Ashara hooked up with a Stark at HH? Yeah.

[Alia of the knife]

To go back slightly, could it be that Brandon is to Barbrey what Aegon IV was to Casella Vaith? Casella was Aegons mistress for a few years, until he delivered her to his father for her to await execution. Casella would remain unwed, believing that Aegon was her one true love.

Barbrey did marry, although that marriage did not last long. And she never remarried after his death, which is slightly curious.

Both women had an affair with a man they seem to have been obsessed with for quite some time after the affair ended. Casella seems to have remained obsessed for the remainder of her life, IIRC. Both women came to be rulers of a seat of their own, but did not (re)marry to get trueborn children who could inherit.

And in both cases, the man they had the affair with knew his way around women pretty well, and wasn't shy about it.

Disclaimer: I am in no way linking Brandon to Aegon IV, purely Casella to Barbrey.

Thats a great catch, especially when you tie in her statement to Theon about wanting to be "one of them," as Theon realized he wanted to be a Stark too.

I don't know if its a commentary about them being a great family, a true family as opposed to some of the other families in the realm, or a statement on power.

There is this part of me that thinks she is a "double agent," and still a Stark loyalist, feeding Theon misinformation, but then a part of me thinks there is some genuine hostility there, even regarding her husband whom she might have come to love.

On a side note, interesting that Aegon the nasty, delivering a girl up to his father for execution.

[Ygrain]

Does anybody here ever read the Heresy threads? When I first joined the forums I read them for a time. Can't recall if I ever posted in them or not. They weren't really my thing so I stopped reading them and didn't give them a lot of thought for a long time. Probably about a year ago (?) certain kinds of comments were brought to my attention, and ever since then I've popped in to read some of the posts from time to time.

The reason I ask has to do with the "certain kinds of comments" I referenced. That is to say, Heretics sure do focus a lot of their time and energy discussing this thread, including its regulars. At least in general terms. And, as you might have guessed, not in the most flattering of ways. When you couple that with the way Heretics tend to behave when they post here ... I dunno, it almost seems like some of them are kind of obsessed with this thread.

We're certainly not immune to criticism. We're human after all, and therefore imperfect. But whatever criticisms can be legitimately leveled against us, no one can say we spend a good chunk of our time in passive-aggressive discussion of a pinned thread. Although if we ever go down that road, I nominate the Compendium of Theories thread. ;)

Ah, yes. Tried one time and was definitely not impressed - neither by thoughts nor by attitudes. And we are now being the topic of discussion? Oh, I am totally flattered.

[BearQueen87]

There is this part of me that thinks she is a "double agent," and still a Stark loyalist, feeding Theon misinformation, but then a part of me thinks there is some genuine hostility there, even regarding her husband whom she might have come to love.

On a side note, interesting that Aegon the nasty, delivering a girl up to his father for execution.

Does it have to be one or the other? I think Barb could be both. She is loyal to the Starks because the Boltons are worse than any Stark and because there is some sort of "northern honor" at stake. But she has a lot of resentment against Ned Stark in particular.

[Alia of the knife]

Does it have to be one or the other? I think Barb could be both. She is loyal to the Starks because the Boltons are worse than any Stark and because there is some sort of "northern honor" at stake. But she has a lot of resentment against Ned Stark in particular.

Nope, and I'm the biggest proponent of multidimensional characters, and agree it could be both, and more than likely is.

[BearQueen87]

Nope, and I'm the biggest proponent of multidimensional characters, and agree it could be both, and more than likely is.

Huzzah for complexity!

[Han Snow]

Ah, yes. Tried one time and was definitely not impressed - neither by thoughts nor by attitudes. And we are now being the topic of discussion? Oh, I am totally flattered.

I read it occasionally, and whenever I do, sooner or later this thread gets at the center of their conversations, and not in a flattering way. It's truly ironic that Heresy is suppose to be a welcoming place to all and everyone, yet most of the users their have an agenda, and that agenda is mostly to bash and think of 100 different ridiculous ways to disprove R+L=J, because for some reason it obviously bothers them very, very much. But sometimes there is a rare genuinely good insight into the books to be found there. Sometimes.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I read and participate in Heresy regularly and I have to say that it is not an anti-rlj thread. In fact a lot of the participants of the thread believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents, though they all don't agree on the outcome or importance of said parentage. And that is the biggest issue with this threads ideas; that Jon is the story and the book is filled with foreshadowing that he is/will be the trueborn Targaryen King. I know, not everyone here agrees on Jon but that is the main concensus. Until recently the topic was not really discussed in Heresy and one reason it is now is to allow the ideas and thoughts to be worked out 'aloud' with other posters, without crucifixion for disagreeing with the mainstream. In that way these threads differ in a big way. Yeah it gets a little crackpotted, but everyone can agree to disagree, including newcomers and outsiders, in a civilsed manner. Most of the time.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

To go back slightly, could it be that Brandon is to Barbrey what Aegon IV was to Casella Vaith? Casella was Aegons mistress for a few years, until he delivered her to his father for her to await execution. Casella would remain unwed, believing that Aegon was her one true love.

Barbrey did marry, although that marriage did not last long. And she never remarried after his death, which is slightly curious.

Both women had an affair with a man they seem to have been obsessed with for quite some time after the affair ended. Casella seems to have remained obsessed for the remainder of her life, IIRC. Both women came to be rulers of a seat of their own, but did not (re)marry to get trueborn children who could inherit.

And in both cases, the man they had the affair with knew his way around women pretty well, and wasn't shy about it.

Disclaimer: I am in no way linking Brandon to Aegon IV, purely Casella to Barbrey.

I always thought of Barbery/Brandon as similar to Lysa/LF. The guy entrances the woman and slept with her but then threw her away when something better or more ambitious came along. But I like your comparison as well as Casella basically went mad afterwards correct? Actually Casella and Lysa and very comparable as well. Lysa hid her madness well though.

I have on rare occasions. There is some interesting discussion to be found in Heresy, particularly stuff concerning the NW, Wall, and beyond, although the more 'out there' heresies are not to my taste. I agree with you that there is this passive aggressive tone within the thread what with the repeated references and dismissal of 'the faithful' or 'that other place'. All in all, Heresy is not quite as welcoming and open to the free exchange of ideas as some Heretics like to claim.

ETA. And don't get me started on the Compendium of Theories. ;)

Yeah Compendium is MIZ.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Both women had an affair with a man they seem to have been obsessed with for quite some time after the affair ended. Casella seems to have remained obsessed for the remainder of her life, IIRC. Both women came to be rulers of a seat of their own, but did not (re)marry to get trueborn children who could inherit.

And in both cases, the man they had the affair with knew his way around women pretty well, and wasn't shy about it.

I wouldn't say B was obsessed simply deluded into believing Brandon was in love. I think he simply liked her or liked to have sex with her but that's it. She had more real feelings.

I think an apt comparison would also be Robert and Barra's mom. Robert, despite he got fat at the end, kept being a charmer. And Barra's mom kept saying he was nice and actually loved him and wished him back (despite sex with Robert after he was a whale was probably like a dangerous sport and not very pleasant to see...). Now, we're talking about a Brandon in his prime, with all the charisma he's able to show. Barbrey was pretty much impressed by a guy who acted like he could claim her as his but most as a trophy for his ego, which she mixed up as real care.

[Prince of the North]

I read and participate in Heresy regularly and I have to say that it is not an anti-rlj thread. In fact a lot of the participants of the thread believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents, though they all don't agree on the outcome or importance of said parentage. And that is the biggest issue with this threads ideas; that Jon is the story and the book is filled with foreshadowing that he is/will be the trueborn Targaryen King. I know, not everyone here agrees on Jon but that is the main concensus. Until recently the topic was not really discussed in Heresy and one reason it is now is to allow the ideas and thoughts to be worked out 'aloud' with other posters, without crucifixion for disagreeing with the mainstream. In that way these threads differ in a big way. Yeah it gets a little crackpotted, but everyone can agree to disagree, including newcomers and outsiders, in a civilsed manner. Most of the time.

Yeah, I've pretty much believed R+L=J since first reading AGoT. But I do not believe Jon will ever sit the Iron Throne. Just my opinion, but I don't believe Jon has shown himself to be the kind of person who would "loop hole" his way out of his Night's Watch vows (i.e. the Wall falls so his vows don't hold anymore, etc.) I also think the only way Jon would "use" his position as Targaryen heir (IF it somehow became well-known and accepted, etc., which is a huge IF) would be if it could somehow help in the upcoming Battle for the Dawn. I think he has committed himself to resisting the Others and I think that's ultimately where his destiny lies. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Jon's heritage never became widely known or accepted but he still plays a large role in the fight against the Others while the most of the wider world remains blissfully unaware of it.

Finally, remember, in order for Martin to do something new or different with a fantasy trope (i.e. the "Hidden Prince") - he must first establish that trope ;)

[BearQueen87]

I wouldn't say B was obsessed simply deluded into believing Brandon was in love. I think he simply liked her or liked to have sex with her but that's it. She had more real feelings.

Which is part of why I wonder if Barb was on her way down to Riverrun for the wedding of Brandon and Cat and Brandon's "errand" was to go met her halfway and either 1) get her to agree to shut up or 2) have one last fling or 3) both 1 and 2

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which is part of why I wonder if Barb was on her way down to Riverrun for the wedding of Brandon and Cat and Brandon's "errand" was to go met her halfway and either 1) get her to agree to shut up or 2) have one last fling or 3) both 1 and 2

I'm quite sure he got his way to keep her mouth busy. U_U

(sorry, I had to).

[Ygrain]

I wouldn't say B was obsessed simply deluded into believing Brandon was in love. I think he simply liked her or liked to have sex with her but that's it. She had more real feelings.

I think an apt comparison would also be Robert and Barra's mom. Robert, despite he got fat at the end, kept being a charmer. And Barra's mom kept saying he was nice and actually loved him and wished him back (despite sex with Robert after he was a whale was probably like a dangerous sport and not very pleasant to see...). Now, we're talking about a Brandon in his prime, with all the charisma he's able to show. Barbrey was pretty much impressed by a guy who acted like he could claim her as his but most as a trophy for his ego, which she mixed up as real care.

I see it that way, too. Nothing we have heard about Brandon shows him as a loving person, but rather entitled, possessive and uncaring. Everything was meant for Brandon, he was never shy about what he wanted, he deflowered his bannerman's daughter, was willing to endanger his family to avenge a slight... we yet have to hear a single thing that doesn't paint him as a big D-bag.

Which is part of why I wonder if Barb was on her way down to Riverrun for the wedding of Brandon and Cat and Brandon's "errand" was to go met her halfway and either 1) get her to agree to shut up or 2) have one last fling or 3) both 1 and 2

Quite likely.... and then Barb put a little barb in his ego and he went all bonkers and straight to KL...

[BearQueen87]

I'm quite sure he got his way to keep her mouth busy. U_U

(sorry, I had to).

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