A+J=T v. 3

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin said those words to Jaime utterly on emotions, he did not actually mean it and still wanted Jaime to become his heir afterwards. The fact that he did say it tells that it's completely Tywin-style to say "you are no son of mine" if a son greatly disappointed and angered him. And Tyrion did disappoint and angered him on epic proportions (by shooting him down with a crossbow, no less), so Tywin just did the same thing he did with Jaime: said that Tyrion is not his son.

Well IMO this is the red herring in this whole conversation. Not the hundred quotes and hints that make AJT possible, but this one statement to Jaime where Tywin is all pissy cuz he is not getting exactly what he wants.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin worded his statement this way regarding Tyrion becoming Hand because Tywin really could not say "While I have doubts you are truly my biological son, the world assumes you are, and so by naming you Hand, I am sending a signal to the world that the Lannisters are in control." It was simpler to say "You are my son," because it gets across the same political message without the part that Tywin does not want to acknowledge at that moment (i.e., the doubts).

As to whether final words are more important than other words, in a novel, often they are. Too often people analyze these issues as if the characters are acting in the way that people act in the real world. In the real world, final words might not be more significant than everything else the person had to say during his or her life. But in a novel, I think the rules often are a bit different.

GRRM will almost always give the reader a "cover story" to obscure each clue -- so lashing out in anger over being shot by Tyrion is certainly a pretty good "cover story." But GRRM could have chosen to have Tywin say something like "You are an embarrassment to the Lannister name." Or, "I wish you had never been born." Or, "You are a kinslayer, first you kill your mother and then your father." Or Tywin could have said a million other variations that were available to him if he was trying to lash out at Tyrion with his last breath. But GRRM chose to have Tywin say the words "You are no son of mine." Words with potential double meaning -- when alternative words were available that would not have had any potential double meaning. Is there 100% certainty that GRRM is leaving the readers a clue that Tywin is not really the biological father of Tyrion -- no not 100%. But taken together with other clues, it looks like a pretty good clue to me.

Yes, what are some other final words we have to go by from key players? Here is a short list, anyone got some more examples? I think if nothing else, we can conclude that last words are meaningful, or will those hellbent on disproving AJT try to make an argument now that last words from major players in asoiaf are meaningless?

Jon Arryn, "The seed is strong."

Catelyn Tully, "On my honor as a Tully, on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy's life for Robb's. A son for a son."

Robb Stark, "Jeyne?"...."Mother".... "Grey wind..."

Jon Snow, "Ghost"

Rickard Karstark, "Kill me and be cursed. You are no king of mine."

Robert Baratheon, "Good," he said smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

Oberyn Martell, "Say the name!"

Kevan Lannister, "Aegon"...Dead. He's dead."

Tywin Lannister, "You....you are.... you are no son of mine."

[Dofs]

Well IMO this is the red herring in this whole conversation. Not the hundred quotes and hints that make AJT possible, but this one statement to Jaime where Tywin is all pissy cuz he is not getting exactly what he wants.

Red Herring or no, it's just shows that Tywin did not mean it literally when he said that Tyrion is not his son. It does not disprove it, it can still be a hint from Martin himself, but there is literally no way that these words can be treated as a reveal from Tywin himself. If Tyrion is not Tywin's son, than Tywin did not know it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Red Herring or no, it's just shows that Tywin did not mean it literally when he said that Tyrion is not his son. It does not disprove it, it can still be a hint from Martin himself, but there is literally no way that these words can be treated as a reveal from Tywin himself. If Tyrion is not Tywin's son, than Tywin did not know it.

I disagree, I think it proves that Tywin strongly suspects or at the very least has doubts that he is the biological father of Tyrion. In my post above you can see that Tyrion and Tywin both understand there have been doubts wrt to this issue for Tyrion's entire life.

And if the statement to Jaime is a red herring, then that means Tywin did not mean it literally, he was just being dramatic to prove his point to Jaime who was disobeying the great Tywin. IMO this is obvious. also see the posts regarding last words. I think this is a very important part of the argument. Why would Martin or Tywin throw away last words?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Red Herring or no, it's just shows that Tywin did not mean it literally when he said that Tyrion is not his son. It does not disprove it, it can still be a hint from Martin himself, but there is literally no way that these words can be treated as a reveal from Tywin himself. If Tyrion is not Tywin's son, than Tywin did not know it.

While I believe the statement is a "double entendre" from GRRM to the readers, I think it also might be a literal statement from Tywin. I think at a minimum Tywin always suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. But as Tywin once told Tyrion, because Tywin could not "prove" that Tyrion was not Tywin's, Tywin was forced to accept Tyrion as a true-born son. In Tywin's last breadth, he finally said out loud what he always really knew, that Tyrion was not really the biological son of Tywin. But, of course, to the reader, the statement as easily comes across as a metaphorical disinheritance rather than a statement of fact. But of course GRRM needs such cover as he was not yet ready for the "big reveal" regarding this mystery. But as with other clues, on looking back, the reader will realize that GRRM told the reader this information at Tywin's death -- most readers simply would not have understood it at that time.

[Dofs]

I disagree, I think it proves that Tywin strongly suspects or at the very least has doubts that he is the biological father of Tyrion. In my post above you can see that Tyrion and Tywin both understand there have been doubts wrt to this issue for Tyrion's entire life.

I doesn't prove it. Your quotes above do indeed show that Tywin had doubts that Tyrion was his. Either because something happened between Joanna and Aerys, or just because he himself couldn't believe that he could father a son, or whatever, it doesn't really matter in what I am trying to say. The last words of Tywin, though, don't show it at all. We know that Tywin had doubts but having doubts is not equal to knowing. While he did say "you are no son of mine", we know that Tywin himself does not think like that as it literally contradicts what we know about him. If he knew it, he wouldn't have raised Tyrion as his son, he wouldn't have sent him to KL to act as a Hand because "Tyrion is his son" and he also wouldn't have any doubts about Tyrion's parentage in the first place. Thus Tywin could not have meant it biologically.

And if the statement to Jaime is a red herring, then that means Tywin did not mean it literally, he was just being dramatic to prove his point to Jaime who was disobeying the great Tywin. IMO this is obvious. also see the posts regarding last words. I think this is a very important part of the argument. Why would Martin or Tywin throw away last words?

He did not mean literally or figuratively, he just said it out of anger. There was no point that Tywin was trying to make. I am now also lost by what you mean here by red herring, sorry. Obviously Tywin did not actually mean what he said, as it was flat out stated so in the book a few chapters later, but how it makes it a red herring and what would have the Tywin's words to Jaime meant, if it was not a red herring?

I don't agree that Martin threw away Tywin's last words even if we go by my interpretation.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I doesn't prove it. Your quotes above do indeed show that Tywin had doubts that Tyrion was his. Either because something happened between Joanna and Aerys, or just because he himself couldn't believe that he could father a son, or whatever, it doesn't really matter in what I am trying to say. The last words of Tywin, though, don't show it at all. We know that Tywin had doubts but having doubts is not equal to knowing. While he did say "you are no son of mine", we know that Tywin himself does not think like that as it literally contradicts what we know about him. If he knew it, he wouldn't have raised Tyrion as his son, he wouldn't have sent him to KL to act as a Hand because "Tyrion is his son" and he also wouldn't have any doubts about Tyrion's parentage in the first place. Thus Tywin could not have meant it biologically.

He did not mean literally or figuratively, he just said it out of anger. There was no point that Tywin was trying to make. I am now also lost by what you mean here by red herring, sorry. Obviously Tywin did not actually mean what he said, as it was flat out stated so in the book a few chapters later, but how it makes it a red herring and what would have the Tywin's words to Jaime meant, if it was not a red herring?

I don't agree that Martin threw away Tywin's last words even if we go by my interpretation.

Sweet!! to the bolded :)

The only possible way that Tywin would have doubts is if Joanna in fact slept with Aerys in the vicinity of 9 months before Tyrion was born (at the 10 year anniversary tourney/party). That's all the confirmation I am after.

Sure we don't know at all who the actual father is, no one can without a blood test. Except in the case of a Targaryen who is able to ride a dragon, or Jon who was able to warg a direwolf thanks to his mother's blood.

Don't you agree? There is only one thing that could ever make a husband doubt the paternity of his children, and that is if his wife slept around on him.

[Dofs]

The only possible way that Tywin would have doubts is if Joanna in fact slept with Aerys in the vicinity of 9 months before Tyrion was born (at the 10 year anniversary tourney/party). That's all the confirmation I am after.

Don't you agree? There is only one thing that could ever make a husband doubt the paternity of his children, and that is if his wife slept around on him.

That's not true at all. The reason for doubts for a husband is usually the fact that a child does not look like a him or/and looks like someone else. For someone like Tywin, if he knew that Joanna slept with Aerys approximately 9 months before Tyrion's birth, it would not be for him just a reason to think that Tyrion might not be his, it would be a flat out confirmation.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What Tywin is saying is, Tyrion being his son is the justification for making him acting Hand, before the other possible candidates. It's not a justification between the two of them, but a justification for the community of power players around them. It's the reason Tyrion will have a chance at imposing Tywin's will. These are all public considerations. I see your point, Tywin could have given him another explanation - but the reason he gave made a lot of sense in the context of a political discussion. Also, it hardly came out like anything approaching an expression of affection, or any intimacy based on a blood relationship. Tyrion's reaction is one of hatred, that Tywin would write off Jaime's chances of survival.

Tywin worded his statement this way regarding Tyrion becoming Hand because Tywin really could not say "While I have doubts you are truly my biological son, the world assumes you are, and so by naming you Hand, I am sending a signal to the world that the Lannisters are in control." It was simpler to say "You are my son," because it gets across the same political message without the part that Tywin does not want to acknowledge at that moment (i.e., the doubts).

As to whether final words are more important than other words, in a novel, often they are. Too often people analyze these issues as if the characters are acting in the way that people act in the real world. In the real world, final words might not be more significant than everything else the person had to say during his or her life. But in a novel, I think the rules often are a bit different.

GRRM will almost always give the reader a "cover story" to obscure each clue -- so lashing out in anger over being shot by Tyrion is certainly a pretty good "cover story." But GRRM could have chosen to have Tywin say something like "You are an embarrassment to the Lannister name." Or, "I wish you had never been born." Or, "You are a kinslayer, first you kill your mother and then your father." Or Tywin could have said a million other variations that were available to him if he was trying to lash out at Tyrion with his last breath. But GRRM chose to have Tywin say the words "You are no son of mine." Words with potential double meaning -- when alternative words were available that would not have had any potential double meaning. Is there 100% certainty that GRRM is leaving the readers a clue that Tywin is not really the biological father of Tyrion -- no not 100%. But taken together with other clues, it looks like a pretty good clue to me.

2. Oh I see, like you said it's the situation. This is a moment where Tywin actually needs Tyrion to do something for him. So of course he is not going to demean and berate him. But his last words, it was just Tyrion and Tywin, there was nothing coming after, this is Tywin's last chance to say anything he wants to Tyrion. Do I think his last words are more meaningful than this other conversation where Tywin was trying to get some use out of Tyrion? Yes absolutely. Here are some instances referencing Tywin doubting Tyrion's parentage and thinking him lesser than any trueborn son could ever be.

Tywin could have said so many other things to Tyrion, if he truly did believe that Tyrion wasn’t his. “I need you to handle Joffrey and Cersei, and no one else has the capacity to do so”, or something like that. Instead, the reason Tyrion gets is “because you are my son”.

Also, very important, it appears that GRRM doesn’t want you to see “You are no son of mine” as Tywin’s last words.

“Wherever whores go,” his father had said. His last words, and what words they were. The crossbow thrummed, Lord Tywin sat back down, and Tyrion Lannister found himself waddling through the darkness with Varys at his side.

1. GOT--Tyrion and Jon

"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."

"Am I?" the dwarf replied sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me and he's never been sure."

2. SoS--Tyrion and Tywin

"What do I want you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

.......

"Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the KG, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I always must have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

4. DwD Tyrion

“If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have,” his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns of Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I’d fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

I need a cup of wine, to wash the taste of Tywin from my mouth.”

1. This quote does not proof that Tyrion is convinced that Tywin has doubts. He´s using sarcasm.

Had Tyrion suspected anything, wouldn’t you think that we’d get any hint about that, at all, in his thoughts? We’re in his head, after all, and have been, for four full books.

2. And this further proofs my point. Tyrion still believes that he is entitled to CR, despite knowing that Tywin doesn´t want to give it to him. If Tyrion had any doubts himself about his paternity, why would he even for a second believe that he has any right whatsoever to CR? Bastards don't inherit the seats of other noble houses.

3. And this proof that Tywin (or Tyrion) believed that Tyrion was not Tywin's son, how exactly...?

Now when you compare these quote to the 1 quote you provided where Tywin was actually trying to get something from Tyrion and calls him his son, there can be no conclusion except that Tywin at the very least, doubts Tyrion is his son. Aerys did sleep with Joanna at that 10 year anniversary tourney, and Tyrion was born around 9 months later. This is the only sensible conclusion. Tywin and Joanna probably had sex in the allotted time as well, which is why Tywin 'doubts' and is not '100% sure'.

Do you really disagree that Tywin has doubts?

I agree that Tywin might have slight doubts, and that this has been a big part of his motivation of hate. But Tywin doubting whether or not something has happened, doesn't mean that it actually happened...

Tywin refuses to give Tyrion Casterly Rock… Why? Most logical, no? Tywin took so much time and effort to rebuild House Lannister to glory, as his house had been laughed at, and humiliated, by Tytos… Tytos, who was weak, who could only laugh, even if he was being insulted right to his face. Tytos, who kept a girl, in Tywin’s eyes nothing more than a whore, and treated the girl as if she was a higher station, allowing her to wear Jeyne’s juwels. Tyrion is already something for Tywin’s bannermen to laugh at. He’s Tywin’s shame, who keeps ‘mistresses’ like Tytos did, who people laugh at, like they did Tytos.

Sweet!! to the bolded :)

The only possible way that Tywin would have doubts is if Joanna in fact slept with Aerys in the vicinity of 9 months before Tyrion was born (at the 10 year anniversary tourney/party). That's all the confirmation I am after.

Sure we don't know at all who the actual father is, no one can without a blood test. Except in the case of a Targaryen who is able to ride a dragon, or Jon who was able to warg a direwolf thanks to his mother's blood.

Don't you agree? There is only one thing that could ever make a husband doubt the paternity of his children, and that is if his wife slept around on him.

No. Gods, people base their suspicions on way less than that. Has she ever had an affair with him, ever? Check. Have they seen each other roughly in the right timeframe? Check? Tywin does not have a thousand eyes (and one) and thus can't have kept eyes on Joanna or Aerys every second of every day that both were in KL. Joanna has once had an affair with Aerys, that much is clear, but having had an affair in 259-263 doesn't mean that they must have slept together in 272 AC, because they simply were in the same city.

You seem to take Tywin's words as a confirmation... Upon being hit by an arrow, Tywin suddenly knew?? All those years of doubt, but being hit by that arrow was as if someone whispered to him, "it is true"? No, of course not...

Had he known, Tyrion would not have lived. As a babe, newly born, he was like to die, according to Cersei. Arranging the death of the infant your former-best-friend-turned-enemy-in-all-but-name that he fathered on the wife who betrayed your love should have been simple.. Nor would he have remained Hand of the King for 8 more years.

Tywin was fine with being humiliated by Aerys time and time again. He could take that. He drew a line, however, when Aerys humiliated Joanna, the woman that Tywin loved… The entire court followed Aerys’ example on humiliating Tywin, so it would only have been natural if the entire court had followed Aerys’ example in humiliating Joanna as well. Tywin tried to resign the next day. Aerys refused.

Aerys and Joanna slept together, that’s why Tywin tried to resign the next day. – So Tywin would know that the two had slept together… would he accept a meek “No” from the king?

Aerys forced himself on Joanna, that’s why Tywin tried to resign the next day. – So Tywin knew that Aerys had hurt the woman that he loved… would he accept a meek “No” from the king?

Neither seem likely to me.

Joanna went to Aerys to try and convince him to keep Tywin on as his Hand… Several problems with this. 1. Joanna had just been publicly shamed and humiliated by Aerys… why would Joanna go offer herself sexually to the person who had done so, only so Tywin can keep his job, which he doesn’t even need to begin with? 2. Joanna ruled Tywin, that was widely known. Had Tywin told her “I’m going to resign tomorrow”, she would have been able to tell him “no”, and according to canon text, he would have listened to her. Had Tywin not told her anything, then the motive of Joanna was removed.

Joanna slept with Aerys and Tywin roughly around the same time, so when she turned out to be pregnant, neither Joanna nor Tywin could know who the father was..

Moon tea is the most logical option in this case. Joanna can’t risk birthing a Targaryen looking child, whether Tywin was suspicious or not. And a failed moon tea won’t have caused dwarfism.

If Joanna slept with Aerys, why wouldn’t she take moon tea in the days that followed? Preventing a pregnancy all together? She’s a woman capable of ruling Tywin Lannister… So she will have been clever enough to match him, so wouldn’t she have been clever enough to get herself some moon tea, to prevent any trouble?

But Tywin suspected… If he suspected, he will have hated Aerys, no? Yet, he was still willing to marry his daughter to Rhaegar… Why, if he had cause to hate Aerys so much?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Another question that comes to mind.. What would the story purpose be? All Tyrion wanted, was Castelry Rock. Making him anything but a Lannister, will mean taking even that away from him. Meanwhile, what does being a Targaryen bastard do for him? He will inherit nothing. Will loose every little last bit of family he has left.. The identity crisis arises...

How will anyone ever confirm it? Aerys is dead, Joanna is dead, Rhaella is dead, Tywin is dead, Kevan is dead... No one will know about it.. a KG? Only Barristan survives from that time.. And he won't have been in the room, should it be the case..

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

Dragons, Moqorro mentions... and Tyrion, a small man with a big shadow.... Tyrion´s big shadow has been mentioned a few times.. Where does power reside? A small man can cast a big shadow... Power will reside with Tyrion...

But to identify Tyrion as a man amongst dragons... Had it read "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you, small, with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.", a case could actually be made... If anything, this quote confirms Tyrion as anything but a dragon..

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Genna Lannister?
I mean, I don't want to support it, but considering it is GRRM's favourite character this is something I can see happening.

He gets a dragon, that'd be the story purpose.

I am somehow inclined to think that it may be a red herring to distract us from Jon Targaryen, but he's really not fooling anyone.

[Cladinator]

I don't know what to think about A+J=T. It doesn't seem way out of the realm of possibility to me. It's not terribly crackpot.

I haven't fully given in to it but I don't dismiss it.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

come on, the dragon(s) will prove who Tyrion actually is. They did that before with Daenerys (in Aemon's opinion). And it worked for Rhaenyra's sons and 'Aenys Targaryen' as well. TWoIaF teaches us that royal bastards have a claim. Tyrion Truefyre for President on the Iron Throne!

I'm also not sure if Tyrion really wants Casterly Rock. He wanted the love of his father. That is why he brought up Casterly Rock in that conversation - to see his father's true colors (yet again).

We should also note that Tywin does not really name Tyrion Hand. He makes him Acting Hand, essentially his errand boy. And when things are secure and back to normal he does everything to cut off Tyrion from power again since he does not really want him to play an important role. Giving him Sansa and Winterfell is really his way to pull a Randyll Tarly on Tyrion. Lannisters are better men. They don't have to join an order, they get a big castle at the end of the world.

Tywin was a very guarded man. He did not talk to anyone about his real feelings and all. And if his relationship with Tyrion was anything it was completely fucked up. From Yandel we know how drawn Tywin was apparently to the Targaryens. He wanted to one of them. Now, if Tyrion is Aerys' son then he is essentially what Tywin wanted Cersei's children to be. He may be a bastard but he would also be a Lannister-Targaryen child, and considering the whole Shae-Tywin episode my guess is that Tywin intended could not suffer Tyrion to become Lord of Casterly Rock - due to the fact that he was not his son - but could also not allow Tyrion to ever find out who and what he may be. Because that would make Tyrion special in a sense Tywin had reserved for his grandchildren by Rhaegar/Viserys and Cersei.

If you really go looking for the great overarching themes we should have expected this whole thing from the beginning. Jon and Ned will have 'posthumous daddy issues' after the revelation just as Tyrion and Tywin. Ned love his 'son' but tricked him out of his heritage/identity, Tywin despised Tyrion but made him a Lannister. Which one was the bigger ass?

Dragon or no, if Tyrion remains the man he always was he'll just go on a boring revenge trip.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Rhaenys,

come on, the dragon(s) will prove who Tyrion actually is. They did that before with Daenerys (in Aemon's opinion). And it worked for Rhaenyra's sons and 'Aenys Targaryen' as well. TWoIaF teaches us that royal bastards have a claim. Tyrion Truefyre for President on the Iron Throne!

I'm also not sure if Tyrion really wants Casterly Rock. He wanted the love of his father. That is why he brought up Casterly Rock in that conversation - to see his father's true colors (yet again).

We should also note that Tywin does not really name Tyrion Hand. He makes him Acting Hand, essentially his errand boy. And when things are secure and back to normal he does everything to cut off Tyrion from power again since he does not really want him to play an important role. Giving him Sansa and Winterfell is really his way to pull a Randyll Tarly on Tyrion. Lannisters are better men. They don't have to join an order, they get a big castle at the end of the world.

Tywin was a very guarded man. He did not talk to anyone about his real feelings and all. And if his relationship with Tyrion was anything it was completely fucked up. From Yandel we know how drawn Tywin was apparently to the Targaryens. He wanted to one of them. Now, if Tyrion is Aerys' son then he is essentially what Tywin wanted Cersei's children to be. He may be a bastard but he would also be a Lannister-Targaryen child, and considering the whole Shae-Tywin episode my guess is that Tywin intended could not suffer Tyrion to become Lord of Casterly Rock - due to the fact that he was not his son - but could also not allow Tyrion to ever find out who and what he may be. Because that would make Tyrion special in a sense Tywin had reserved for his grandchildren by Rhaegar/Viserys and Cersei.

If you really go looking for the great overarching themes we should have expected this whole thing from the beginning. Jon and Ned will have 'posthumous daddy issues' after the revelation just as Tyrion and Tywin. Ned love his 'son' but tricked him out of his heritage/identity, Tywin despised Tyrion but made him a Lannister. Which one was the bigger ass?

Dragon or no, if Tyrion remains the man he always was he'll just go on a boring revenge trip.

So you're completely convinced that Nettles was a seed and that the George did not include her to show that maybe, just maybe, the intro to The Sword Sword was misleading?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^^ oh yeah, Lord Varys is pretty sure that Nettles is Dameon's daughter. I'm inclined to believe it, but regardless I think she for sure is blood of the dragon in someway. All 5 books, all they ever talk about is 'Targaryen dragons'. It's always a reference to the Targs and their dragons. If anyone wants to talk about a pointless plotline it would be that if all-of-a-sudden Martin decided that in the last book he would take blood away as a pre-requisite to bonding with a dragon or warging a direwolf. There would be no purpose to any of that. Jon is special because of his bloodlines on both sides. It's all the same core basis as any fantasy; blood matters. All Tolkien or Cornwell's writing is the same, blood matters.

[Lost Melnibonean]

^^^ oh yeah, Lord Varys is pretty sure that Nettles is Dameon's daughter. I'm inclined to believe it, but regardless I think she for sure is blood of the dragon in someway. All 5 books, all they ever talk about is 'Targaryen dragons'. It's always a reference to the Targs and their dragons. If anyone wants to talk about a pointless plotline it would be that if all-of-a-sudden Martin decided that in the last book he would take blood away as a pre-requisite to bonding with a dragon or warging a direwolf. There would be no purpose to any of that. Jon is special because of his bloodlines on both sides. It's all the same core basis as any fantasy; blood matters. All Tolkien or Cornwell's writing is the same, blood matters.

I tend to agree with the second part. But I think the opposing argument is reasonable. The first part is just gross, unless we're saying that the relationship between Daemon and Nettles was not sexual. (I think it was.)

[Weirdo]

Many have said that if Tywin suspected that Tyrion was Aerys's son, that his sense of honor would have compelled him to kill him in the crib.

But I don't see Tywin fundamentally as a man of honor. Tywin is a Machiavellian. He is all about power, and he understands that honor (or the perception of honor) is a component to power, but that is as far as he values honor (hello, red wedding!).

Our perception of Tywin is clouded by the fact that we are used to seeing him as a more powerful figure than he was before the events of the novel. In the days before the rebellion, Tywin couldn't just do whatever he wanted in reaction to insults from Aerys. He had to work within the limits of his power at the time. So Aerys insulted his wife? Could she possibly be the only woman among the nobility Aerys hit on and/or offended?

Tywin may have had doubts that Tyrion was his son - I think he did, clearly, but that's what we're debating - but Tywin might doubt that Tyrion is his son, yet still act as if Tyrion is his son, if it serves his purposes. Besides, he can't know for sure that Tyrion is not his son, but nobody else can either.

Thus, there's no immediate reason to get rid of him. Tyrion was a burden to him at times, and at other times an asset, but at all times a potential tool to use toward his goals. It had nothing to do with honor. Tywin's goal, which he ultimately achieved, was placing his family above other families, and disinheriting Tyrion publicly wouldn't serve that purpose, since it would acknowledge publicly that Tywin was a cuckold to the king. But within the family, it was understood that Tyrion would not become Lord of Casterly Rock. Tyrion knew the answer before he insisted on asking the question. He thought it was because of his father's hatred for him. I think there was something behind that hatred that he didn't suspect: that Tywin never knew whether Tyrion was his son.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Also, very important, it appears that GRRM doesn’t want you to see “You are no son of mine” as Tywin’s last words.

“Wherever whores go,” his father had said. His last words, and what words they were. The crossbow thrummed, Lord Tywin sat back down, and Tyrion Lannister found himself waddling through the darkness with Varys at his side.

If you are using this passage as evidence that GRRM does not consider "you are no son of mine" to be important or the last words and thus down playing the significance of the words, then I think you really are not examining the evidence objectively. This passage, if anything, is strong support in favor of the significance of the "real" final words as a clue to the reader. Tyrion, who presumably assumes that the statement about not being Tywin's son was merely another insult from Tywin, focuses on the "Wherever whores go" comment because that comment presumably hurt Tyrion even more than the statement about not being Tywin's son -- Tyrion was more or less used to that insult. But the readers know what the real last words were. This passage is a sort-of red herring, intended to distract the reader from realizing the significance of the real last words.

So that statement serves two purposes. We get insight into how hurt Tyrion is regarding Tysha and how he was manipulated into thinking she was something she was not. But this statement also serves as misdirection. GRRM plants the clue and then distracts the readers away from the clue. This technique is classic GRRM -- as well as any writing trying to keep open certain mysteries in the story. He drops a clue and then tries to minimize its significance (by use of red herrings and other misdirection) to increase the number of people who will be surprised by the "big reveal" but also, if they go back and re-read, they will see that the clue was there all along.

Another question that comes to mind.. What would the story purpose be? All Tyrion wanted, was Castelry Rock. Making him anything but a Lannister, will mean taking even that away from him. Meanwhile, what does being a Targaryen bastard do for him? He will inherit nothing. Will loose every little last bit of family he has left.. The identity crisis arises...

How will anyone ever confirm it? Aerys is dead, Joanna is dead, Rhaella is dead, Tywin is dead, Kevan is dead... No one will know about it.. a KG? Only Barristan survives from that time.. And he won't have been in the room, should it be the case..

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

Dragons, Moqorro mentions... and Tyrion, a small man with a big shadow.... Tyrion´s big shadow has been mentioned a few times.. Where does power reside? A small man can cast a big shadow... Power will reside with Tyrion...

But to identify Tyrion as a man amongst dragons... Had it read "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you, small, with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.", a case could actually be made... If anything, this quote confirms Tyrion as anything but a dragon..

LV addresses this point fairly well, but I will add a few additional thoughts. The question of "how will it be revealed" or "who really can prove it" or "who will believe it" are questions that, in my opinion are not useful with respect to this type of analysis. Yes, they are interesting questions in and of themselves -- but only regarding speculating how GRRM will accomplish such a feat. They are not arguments against the "big reveal" being true. That question must be answered using clues and story-arc type evidence. The "how" or "who will reveal" questions are ones that GRRM might be keeping "under his hat" but he is the "god of this universe" and he will figure out a way. Arguing that it is "impossible" for anyone to "prove it" is really a pointless argument with respect to "whether" it is true. If GRRM wants it to be revealed and known -- it will be revealed and known.

As to the story purpose -- as I have said over and over again -- Tyrion is one of the f*cking "heads of the dragon" and to be a head of the dragon, he must be "of the dragon" i.e., of "House Targ" i.e., the son of a Targ. The prophecy indicates that the dragon must have three heads. If I am correct that Tyrion is one of those three heads, then he needs to be "of the dragon" so that is the "in-story" purpose. Oh--and also probably that dragon riding thing.

But back to your question of "how" it will be revealed. Although I think GRRM often leaves such questions unknowable until ultimately revealed, in this case, I think the how is pretty obvious. Selmy probably stood guard while Aerys and Joanna did their thing -- so Selmy knows that Tyrion's mother had sex with Aerys approximately 9 months prior to Tyrion's birth. No, he was not in the room, but the KG generally knew what was going on behind the doors they guarded (think of Jaime commenting on Aerys raping Rhaella). Then, when Tyrion bonds with a dragon, any doubts will be removed.

As to the Moqorro quote, I think you are making way too much of subtle grammar points. The words "And you" are in isolation, making it unclear whether Tyrion is one of the dragons or separate from the dragons. Of course Moqorro (and GRRM) would intend it to be ambiguous -- he is not going to tell Tyrion that he is a dragon unambiguously -- both for in-story and literary reasons. But read it with slightly different punctuation and it becomes clear: "Dragons. Old and young. True and false. Bright and dark. And you." With that punctuation (and ignoring the final commentary about Tyrion snarling), Tyrion appears to be at the end of the list of dragons. I also think that the reference to Tyrion "snarling" is an additional clue that he is a dragon.

Bottom line -- of course every clue has a "counter" theory that explains away the significance and allows for a different explanation. That is how GRRM plants clues -- he pretty much always leaves the reader with an "innocent" explanation (for example, "Why were the 3 KG still at the ToJ? -- Cover story, "They were ordered to be there." Real story, "They were guarding the king."). But look at the accumulation of clues that could be read to suggest that Tyrion is a Targ bastard. Why would GRRM plant so many clues that if read one way argue in favor of this theory? There are just too many to be ignored. Looking at each in isolation allows a reader to fashion the "innocent" explanation as the rationale. But the accumulation of clues that arguably suggest Tyrion is a Targ bastard are too numerous to mean they are just a "coincidence" and as I have argued before, they don't really work as a red herring. So the only conclusion that seems logical to me is that the clues are meant to lead careful readers to conclude Aerys is the biological father of Tyrion.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Another question that comes to mind.. What would the story purpose be? All Tyrion wanted, was Castelry Rock. Making him anything but a Lannister, will mean taking even that away from him. Meanwhile, what does being a Targaryen bastard do for him? He will inherit nothing. Will loose every little last bit of family he has left.. The identity crisis arises...

How will anyone ever confirm it? Aerys is dead, Joanna is dead, Rhaella is dead, Tywin is dead, Kevan is dead... No one will know about it.. a KG? Only Barristan survives from that time.. And he won't have been in the room, should it be the case..

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

Dragons, Moqorro mentions... and Tyrion, a small man with a big shadow.... Tyrion´s big shadow has been mentioned a few times.. Where does power reside? A small man can cast a big shadow... Power will reside with Tyrion...

But to identify Tyrion as a man amongst dragons... Had it read "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you, small, with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.", a case could actually be made... If anything, this quote confirms Tyrion as anything but a dragon..

I dunno i have a feeling those associated with big shadows are either of Targaryen decent

I believe this is where Mel get's shadow babies from

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin could have said so many other things to Tyrion, if he truly did believe that Tyrion wasn’t his. “I need you to handle Joffrey and Cersei, and no one else has the capacity to do so”, or something like that. Instead, the reason Tyrion gets is “because you are my son”.

Also, very important, it appears that GRRM doesn’t want you to see “You are no son of mine” as Tywin’s last words.

“Wherever whores go,” his father had said. His last words, and what words they were. The crossbow thrummed, Lord Tywin sat back down, and Tyrion Lannister found himself waddling through the darkness with Varys at his side.

1. This quote does not proof that Tyrion is convinced that Tywin has doubts. He´s using sarcasm.

Had Tyrion suspected anything, wouldn’t you think that we’d get any hint about that, at all, in his thoughts? We’re in his head, after all, and have been, for four full books.

2. And this further proofs my point. Tyrion still believes that he is entitled to CR, despite knowing that Tywin doesn´t want to give it to him. If Tyrion had any doubts himself about his paternity, why would he even for a second believe that he has any right whatsoever to CR? Bastards don't inherit the seats of other noble houses.

3. And this proof that Tywin (or Tyrion) believed that Tyrion was not Tywin's son, how exactly...?

I agree that Tywin might have slight doubts, and that this has been a big part of his motivation of hate. But Tywin doubting whether or not something has happened, doesn't mean that it actually happened...

Tywin refuses to give Tyrion Casterly Rock… Why? Most logical, no? Tywin took so much time and effort to rebuild House Lannister to glory, as his house had been laughed at, and humiliated, by Tytos… Tytos, who was weak, who could only laugh, even if he was being insulted right to his face. Tytos, who kept a girl, in Tywin’s eyes nothing more than a whore, and treated the girl as if she was a higher station, allowing her to wear Jeyne’s juwels. Tyrion is already something for Tywin’s bannermen to laugh at. He’s Tywin’s shame, who keeps ‘mistresses’ like Tytos did, who people laugh at, like they did Tytos.

No. Gods, people base their suspicions on way less than that. Has she ever had an affair with him, ever? Check. Have they seen each other roughly in the right timeframe? Check? Tywin does not have a thousand eyes (and one) and thus can't have kept eyes on Joanna or Aerys every second of every day that both were in KL. Joanna has once had an affair with Aerys, that much is clear, but having had an affair in 259-263 doesn't mean that they must have slept together in 272 AC, because they simply were in the same city.

You seem to take Tywin's words as a confirmation... Upon being hit by an arrow, Tywin suddenly knew?? All those years of doubt, but being hit by that arrow was as if someone whispered to him, "it is true"? No, of course not...

Had he known, Tyrion would not have lived. As a babe, newly born, he was like to die, according to Cersei. Arranging the death of the infant your former-best-friend-turned-enemy-in-all-but-name that he fathered on the wife who betrayed your love should have been simple.. Nor would he have remained Hand of the King for 8 more years.

Tywin was fine with being humiliated by Aerys time and time again. He could take that. He drew a line, however, when Aerys humiliated Joanna, the woman that Tywin loved… The entire court followed Aerys’ example on humiliating Tywin, so it would only have been natural if the entire court had followed Aerys’ example in humiliating Joanna as well. Tywin tried to resign the next day. Aerys refused.

Aerys and Joanna slept together, that’s why Tywin tried to resign the next day. – So Tywin would know that the two had slept together… would he accept a meek “No” from the king?

Aerys forced himself on Joanna, that’s why Tywin tried to resign the next day. – So Tywin knew that Aerys had hurt the woman that he loved… would he accept a meek “No” from the king?

Neither seem likely to me.

Joanna went to Aerys to try and convince him to keep Tywin on as his Hand… Several problems with this. 1. Joanna had just been publicly shamed and humiliated by Aerys… why would Joanna go offer herself sexually to the person who had done so, only so Tywin can keep his job, which he doesn’t even need to begin with? 2. Joanna ruled Tywin, that was widely known. Had Tywin told her “I’m going to resign tomorrow”, she would have been able to tell him “no”, and according to canon text, he would have listened to her. Had Tywin not told her anything, then the motive of Joanna was removed.

Joanna slept with Aerys and Tywin roughly around the same time, so when she turned out to be pregnant, neither Joanna nor Tywin could know who the father was..

Moon tea is the most logical option in this case. Joanna can’t risk birthing a Targaryen looking child, whether Tywin was suspicious or not. And a failed moon tea won’t have caused dwarfism.

If Joanna slept with Aerys, why wouldn’t she take moon tea in the days that followed? Preventing a pregnancy all together? She’s a woman capable of ruling Tywin Lannister… So she will have been clever enough to match him, so wouldn’t she have been clever enough to get herself some moon tea, to prevent any trouble?

But Tywin suspected… If he suspected, he will have hated Aerys, no? Yet, he was still willing to marry his daughter to Rhaegar… Why, if he had cause to hate Aerys so much?

Ok so you agree Tywin may have doubts, that's enough for me. Several posters have said the same, Tywin does in fact have doubts.

You are saying that if Joanna and Aerys did copulate at the 10 year party that Tywin probably didnt know about it? I think it is obvious he did know about it, hence the attempted resignation the next day.

Your moon tea argument does not stand strong. There could be 100 reasons she didnt take moon tea, we know nothing about her. Some women oppose it on principle, some women are ambitious and would be happy to bear the kings child. Maybe she loved Aerys and not Tywin, maybe she wasnt sure who the father was and would never want to possibly harm Tywin's child. I really dont know and neither does anyone.

WRT the last words, they are what they are, and Martin put them there for a reason. You totally skipped over my 'last words' post. If you want to make an argument that last words mean nothing in literature, or they mean nothing in this fantasy series, go ahead, but I think I have shown that they do matter.

To the bolded, Tywin being suspicious is huge, it's huge in favor of AJT, the father is suspicious so you must admit that for him to be suspicious he must have something to be suspicious about. There can be no other bigger hint than that. And as far as I can tell, Tyrion has zero idea that Aerys might be his father, which is why he never thinks of it internally. I dont recall him ever mentioning it, all he has to go on is Tywin hinting at 'something' for most of his life. But Tyrion just thinks it's the dwarf thing, that his father hates him because he is a dwarf, end of story from Tyrion's POV. Of course Tywin would never tell Tyrion (or anyone) if he suspects his wife cheated on him, especially after the twins were born. This would be a huge scandal, that also was helped by the death of Joanna. Had she lived things would have been very different for Tyrion.

Speaking of which do you see no parallel between the births of Jon, Dany and Tyrion?