"A Year Ago I was Scheming to Make The Girl Robert's QUEEN"

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

that proves nothing, honestly.

he made his wife join SS, does it say that his marriage was renounced in eyes of the 7?

was he allowed to re-marry in front of the 7?

If numerous people within that story considered Robert dismissing Cersei and taking a new wife a real possibility, then it's all the proof I need and, frankly, I'm a little puzzled that it's not enough for you.

[RumHam]

that proves nothing, honestly.

he made his wife join SS, does it say that his marriage was renounced in eyes of the 7?

was he allowed to re-marry in front of the 7?

Robert controlled the High Septon, who would technically have had to release he and Cersei from their vows. But yes he could remarry. Here's some quotes I rounded up when the question came up yesterday:

And whatever version of the tale was true, we do know that Daemon asked for Rhaenyra’s hand, if only Viserys would set aside his marriage to Lady Rhea. Viserys refused, and instead exiled

Daemon from the Seven Kingdoms, never to return upon pain of death.

[Aerys I's] small council, at their wits’ ends, hoped it was simply some dislike of her that moved him, and thus they urged him to put her aside to take another wife. But he would not hear of it.

Ellyn Reyne was accused of bedding Tytos Lannister, urging him to set aside his wife and marry her instead.

Garland accomplished the same in the south, bringing Oldtown into his kingdom by wedding his daughter to Lymond (the Sea Lion) of House Hightower, whilst putting his own wives aside to marry Lord Lymond’s daughter.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I did not notice that. That's really interesting.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

not much Tywin could have done????

i am going to type that again, there is not much TYWIN LANNISTER could have done...

well, off the top of my head, not to be a broken record, but if Robert just chucked her aside, he would have lost the Faith. he loses the Faith, he loses the Commonfolk.

Lord Tywin would have had his entire Lannister Host whose commanders would have included Tywin himself, Kevan, Jamie, and Devan.

Not to mention knowing Lord Tywin, he would have more than likely been able to recruit another High House, like Frey, to his cause.

Lannister, Frey, Faith, Commoners, plus whatever he could buy in sellswords, which would be every company in the Free Cities.

Gold Company with a chance to usurp Robert? Second Sons for the glory?

it would be more evenly matched than you think...IMO

Robert could send her to the silent sisters, like Quentyn Ball did with his wife.

Why should Robert fear Tywin's army when he'll have the power of the Stormlands, North, Vale, Riverlands, and the Reach behind him? Why should he fear those commanders when he has men like Eddard, Brynden, Stannis, Randyll, and himself to lead his armies?

Indeed. People underestimates how unpopular Tywin Lannister is. Many would jump into the first chance to get rid of him for good at first time. Did I say Dorne would remain neutral? Because, now I think better, I could see Oberyn leading charge against Tywin to kill him himself.

Tywin is not beloved. He's feared. Fear only gets you a limited amount of loyalty.

[TallTyrion]

not much Tywin could have done????

i am going to type that again, there is not much TYWIN LANNISTER could have done...

well, off the top of my head, not to be a broken record, but if Robert just chucked her aside, he would have lost the Faith. he loses the Faith, he loses the Commonfolk.

You realize the High Septon at this time is a complete lickspittle? The Tyrells could easily buy off the HS and get approval for the marriage. The Faith is not a power until Cersei's idiotic rule.

Also the commonfolk aren't that relevant to a King like Robert that has the allegiance of The North, Vale, Stormlands, Riverlands, and in this scenario the Reach.

Lord Tywin would have had his entire Lannister Host whose commanders would have included Tywin himself, Kevan, Jamie, and Devan.

And Robert has Ned, The Blackfish, Stannis, Randyll Tarly and himself.

Not to mention knowing Lord Tywin, he would have more than likely been able to recruit another High House, like Frey, to his cause.

Lannister, Frey, Faith, Commoners, plus whatever he could buy in sellswords, which would be every company in the Free Cities.

Gold Company with a chance to usurp Robert? Second Sons for the glory?

it would be more evenly matched than you think...IMO

The Frey's aren't going to join one Kingdom against 5 and the Crownlands. Especially when they would be right in the middle of all of Robert's allies.

Even if he did get the Freys on his side their strength is only around 4000 men. The Faith and commoners have zero military power. And it's financially and logistically impossible to hire "every sellsword company" Second sons are 500 men on the other side of the world and the golden company is under contract.

It wouldn't be even at all. Look at what Robb was able to do to the Westerlands with his relatively small army. The North under Ned with time to gather his full strength, plus all of the Stormlands, Riverlands and Reach strength is massive power bloc and that's not even including the Vale and Crownlands. And probably Dorne as well since this would be an ideal chance for Doran to destroy Tywin.

[DigUpHerBones]

Tywin is not beloved. He's feared. Fear only gets you a limited amount of loyalty.

i see it totally differently.

Tywin is RESPECTED, respected, and "all the gold in Casterly Rock" gets you loyalty

[JonCon's Red Beard]

i see it totally differently.

Tywin is RESPECTED, respected, and "all the gold in Casterly Rock" gets you loyalty

Tywin is not respected. He's feared. Ned, Arryn and Hoster are better examples of lords being either loved or respected. Or both.

All the gold in Casterly Rock can't help you war against six Kingdoms that hate you and want you dead, for whatever reasons. Now Tywin is dead, all the gold in CR can't save Cersei from destroying the Kingdom. Being feared and having money only buy you time and some silent while you have power. As soon as you're gone, people is glad you're gone and will look for someone else to serve, someone more convenient.

[DigUpHerBones]

You realize the High Septon at this time is a complete lickspittle? The Tyrells could easily buy off the HS and get approval for the marriage. The Faith is not a power until Cersei's idiotic rule.

Also the commonfolk aren't that relevant to a King like Robert that has the allegiance of The North, Vale, Stormlands, Riverlands, and in this scenario the Reach.

yes because the million or so commoners could do nothing, other than burn and revolt in cities after the High Lords and their hosts leave the cities...pitchforks kill people too

if the Faith is such, "lickspittle" why did Aegon I need their confirmation?

or why is Cers freaking out about the HS not crowning Tommy?

or why is everyone afraid of the few thousand Sparrows armed with axes?

the Faith Militant and Sparrows have both been reborn as a result of slights to the Seven, why would the same not happen in this scenario?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well lets see.

The Riverlanders hate the Lannisters. Not much fear there.

Ned hates Tywin with a passion.

Dorne's hate for him makes Ned's pale in comparison.

The Stormlands will follow Robert to hell and back.

Jon Arryn loves him like a son and the Valelords have nothing to fear from the Lannisters.

That leaves the most powerful region of all - The Reach - who would be Robert's biggest supporters in this war.

Tywin is toast if he so much as makes a move against the Iron Throne in this scenario.

[DigUpHerBones]

Tywin is not respected. He's feared. Ned, Arryn and Hoster are better examples of lords being either loved or respected. Or both.

All the gold in Casterly Rock can't help you war against six Kingdoms that hate you and want you dead, for whatever reasons. Now Tywin is dead, all the gold in CR can't save Cersei from destroying the Kingdom. Being feared and having money only buy you time and some silent while you have power. As soon as you're gone, people is glad you're gone and will look for someone else to serve, someone more convenient.

so gold is not imperative to winning a war? interesting view.

and Jon Arryn, who used two young teenage boys for his own advancement and as pawns is more respected? guess it is a matter of perspective which is why this series is so f*cking amazing.

yes again my friend, hindsight is 20/20. knowing what we know now Robert obviously should have done everything to get rid of Cers a year before SoS.

but Cers would not be who she is today if Tywin were still alive.

i know there are a few quotes out there, forget whose view which is obviously important, that mentions Tywin being the glue that held Kingdom together during Roberts incompetence and how he was really the King during parts of Areys rule...

you do not become Hand, let alone 2 times over if you are not respected...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

the Faith Militant and Sparrows have both been reborn as a result of slights to the Seven, why would the same not happen in this scenario?

They are not. They have reborn because Cersei allowed them too.

People don't kill peasants because it's bad propaganda, not because they fear them or even care for them. Some do, but it's not a common thing. Mostly would treat them like property, and Lords don't like their property being hurt. That's it.

Cersei wanted the Faith's approval because he needs them to consolidate Tommen's reign, specially after all of the rumours of incest. But he is still King whether the Faith likes it or not. It is illegal for them to have weapons and fight, there is no much they can do except trying to move some people and they wouldn't do it.

Also, remember that many have mentioned that the people in KL remembers the Sack. And Tywin was the one who caused it. They don't like Tywin. Some even believed the bad things happened to them were because Jaime killed Aerys and the children of Rhaegar were murdered. They would easily believe Cersei was guilty of whatever Renly had accused her.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

Remember, also, that this was all before the Wo5k started, so the smallfolk wouldn't necessarily have been so stirred up by the Faith as they were after they were ravaged by war. With a compliant HS (the one they had at the time), it could easily have worked out like this: Robert sets Cersei aside for Margeary. HS twiddles his thumbs and does nothing. Tywin starts a war. Peasants suffer. Tyrells bring them food. Combined forces of everybody who hates Tywin, i.e. everybody but the West, whoop his ass. All hail Queen Margeary the Good!

ETA: So Renly's plan was neither stupid, nor naive, just undone by events. If only Stannis had gone along with it, revealing the incest and keeping DS and his title as heir until Margeary's kid is born, it's a done deal.

[Buried Treasure]

If Cersei had been sent to the Faith the Lannisters would have been pissed off, but it would not be an annulment so Joffrey's status as Robert's trueborn son and heir would have been unaffected. The Lannisters wouldn't have the same motives full scale war as the rebellers did against the Targs, as they would still have an investment in the success of the dynasty.

Of course, Renly and the Tyrells would still be in disfavour with the Lannisters in 10 or 20 years when Robert drinks himself to a heart attack at 45 or liver failure at 55, but that is offset by the advantages of Marg beyond Queen for those years and maybe even Joffrey growing closer to his Baratheon kin than his Lannister heritage.

[TallTyrion]

yes because the million or so commoners could do nothing, other than burn and revolt in cities after the High Lords and their hosts leave the cities...pitchforks kill people too

So you think "millions of people" will rise up because the King gets divorced? What are you basing that on? Incest is also abhorrent to the faith and yet millions of people didn't rise up when Aerys married his sister.

if the Faith is such, "lickspittle" why did Aegon I need their confirmation?

He didn't "need it" he extracted it essentially at gun point because it was a good PR move. Also the faith had an army at that point that doesn't exist during Robert's reign

or why is Cers freaking out about the HS not crowning Tommy?

or why is everyone afraid of the few thousand Sparrows armed with axes?

the Faith Militant and Sparrows have both been reborn as a result of slights to the Seven, why would the same not happen in this scenario?

Symbolically important to have HS anoint the King, doesn't make them a military power. They intimidated a conclave of Septons with those axes not an army of Knights and men at arms.

And the Faith militant was reborn because Cersei was dumb enough to change the law thereby allowing the faith to arm its self.

[Ser Leftwich]

There was no talk of what Robert would do with Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen.

Would Tywin revolt if this grandson would still inherit? If the cost of a grandson as king was Cersei going off to the Silent Sisters, I think Tywin would pay that and for Robert's wedding to Margaery as well.

[RumHam]

if the Faith is such, "lickspittle" why did Aegon I need their confirmation?

Firstly, it was a political maneuver. He had already done most of his conquering. He was wise to do it, but it was not a requirement to complete the conquest. Secondly things change over time. Maegor basically broke the Faith's military power, and Jaehaerys brought them under Targaryen protection and influence.

[A Prince of Dorne]

If only this had come to pass...many of my favorite characters would still live

[TallTyrion]

that is all well and good, but Robert WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO REMARRY IN FRONT OF THE FAITH

Yes he would have. High Septon at the time of AGoT is corrupt as hell.

see above, Roberts bannermen have ZERO motivation to fight this war, other than duty...duty

we all know throughout history how much that matters in War.

the Americans should have never won the Revolution, and 100 years later the South should have been wiped out in months, not years if you just look at the tangible factors...

Let's see. The Reach have the motive of putting Marg on the Throne, same motive for supporting Renly.

The Stormlands, under Renly, are keen on removing the Lannisters. This is evidenced by them switching to every side possible during the Wot5K before being forced to submit to Joffery.

Ned hates the Lannisters and wants justice for the events of the Robert's Rebellion and is best friends with the King. The North will follow a Stark to war and they have a marriage alliance with the Riverlands.

Stannis can raise the lords of the Narrow Sea and Robert is popular enough to get a decent amount of Crownland support.

Dorne wants Tywin dead more than anything.

The Vale would be the only one doing it strictly out of "duty" and are by no means required to win a war against Tywin.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There was no talk of what Robert would do with Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen.

Would Tywin revolt if this grandson would still inherit? If the cost of a grandson as king was Cersei going off to the Silent Sisters, I think Tywin would pay that and for Robert's wedding to Margaery as well.

he would end up paying for all of that, literally :lol:

[DigUpHerBones]

Yes he would have. High Septon at the time of AGoT is corrupt as hell.

this is certainly a perspective I overlooked/forgot...but i thought, "The Fat One" was loyal to House Lannister, not so much, "The Crown"?

like Prycelle?

Firstly, it was a political maneuver. He had already done most of his conquering. He was wise to do it, but it was not a requirement to complete the conquest. Secondly things change over time. Maegor basically broke the Faith's military power, and Jaehaerys brought them under Targaryen protection and influence.

EXACTLY, he did it to appease the Commonfolk.

His conquest was over, he won, every High Lord had bent the knee.

But he did not want his first years as King to be in civil unrest, he wanted to bind the Kingdoms, not further separate them. the Faith was the only one who could do that, and Aegon I knew it.

Dorne wants Tywin dead more than anything.

No, the Sand Snakes and Oberyn wanted Tywin dead.

Doran would have let him do whatever he wanted without repercussions as he did for years.

But Doran is the type to ride the Bandwagon and would probably pull a Late Walder by arriving after the war was already over and trying to capture some glory...