Free Northman Reborn Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 It could be as simple as everyone - including Renly - just really hating the Lannisters. Cersei was just damn unpleasant to be around, and Renly probably didn't like the misery she was putting his brother through. Plus, it would make Loras and his family happy to have their sister and daughter as Queen. He might even have known about Cersei's sordid affair with Jaime, and while he may not have known about the bastard status of Cersei's three children, the plan could have been to have Robert like Margaery more, have Robert divorce Cersei, and have Robert name the kids of his favourite new wife as his heirs, above Cersei's spawn. There is no killing required for that. A king can name his heirs as he sees fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 I suppose both Renly and Robert (and even Stannis and everyone with a brain) realised the dangers of the Lannisters taking control eventually. With Robert dead (for whatever reason), the Realm would fall in hands of Tywin Lannister again.There is no evidence that Renly was not smart. Maybe a bit shallow but he wanted to be a political player, or at least wanted to be involved. There is also a chance that he realised Cersei wanted him gone, or intended him to be gone after Robert's eventual death.The Tyrells, otoh, are a bit savvier. I'm sure they knew that there was something odd about the children being all gold. Doran says he has spies in KL, why wouldn't the Tyrells have the same? Maybe Renly was the unintentional spy. And maybe they convinced him to tempt Robert with Margaery and later try to implicate Cersei in something. Considering how reckless C and J can be, who knows if some of them actually saw something. There was absolutely ZERO reason to think Robert would die an untimely death ONE YEAR before SoS... of course hindsight is 20/20 regarding the dangers of the Lannisters, but ONE YEAR before SoS, they were the most powerful High House, and I do not think it was even close. the Realm was at it's best at that point...things were trending upwards in Westeros and nobody was thinking about what would happen if Robert were to die... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. - AGoT p. 344(for reference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This scheme is also talked of by Varys and Illyriio when Arya overhears them in the dungeons: The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court.The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. (AGoT 289.) So the scheme is between Renly and Ser Loras, at least. edit: Ahh, Ser Leftwich great minds ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. interesting there was a reference that early in the series... i honestly thought SoS was the first hint, awesome find. maybe i should have changed my post to ask, HOW, this would be possible... we know Marg is beautiful, and even expresses a bit of sexuality from time to time. that would certainly present a very attractive alternative to Cers, but this is not the Church of England, no divorces is Westeros. i am under the impression that the spouse has to die, or you need to renounce the 7 as your faith to break a MARRIAGE. not saying that they could not have had relations, i am saying a legally biding marriage in eyes of Faith and commoners alike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Says who? The King makes the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I may not like Renly, but he was smarter than people give him credit for, He knew that his biggest trait was his charisma, and he use it to gain allies for the War of the 5 kings after Robert died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 House Lannister was at their peak a year before SoS, you think Lord Tywin would just be ok with his daughter being disposed? There was not much Tywin could have done. Robert would have the Vale and the North and Riverlands secured via Jon Arryn and Ned. Also, the Reach. The Martells would be neutral, as usual, and the IB would have to fight because Ned has Theon. Tywin would be very much alone. He's strong but he wouldn't fight five kingdoms alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Says who? The King makes the rules. earlier on i referenced that Roberts best attribute was bringing peace to the realm for 15 years, less the GJR which was handled relatively quickly without much harm to Westeros. if he just chucks Cers aside, he has a Civil War with House Lannister, who would have the support of the Faith and the people. that makes for a sticky situation... why would Robert risk that for some ass? like i also said earlier, he could have f*cked Marg on the side with FAR less repercussions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Getting rid of the Lannister power bloc intending him to die to secure Storms End for Tommen. Okay, you have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This quote is imho the strongest hint that Renly was indeed a Tyrell pawn. Or what motivation did he have to make her Robert's queen? What would he gain from it? Self preservation and continued influence at Court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 There was not much Tywin could have done.Robert would have the Vale and the North and Riverlands secured via Jon Arryn and Ned. Also, the Reach. The Martells would be neutral, as usual, and the IB would have to fight because Ned has Theon. Tywin would be very much alone. He's strong but he wouldn't fight five kingdoms alone. not much Tywin could have done???? i am going to type that again, there is not much TYWIN LANNISTER could have done... well, off the top of my head, not to be a broken record, but if Robert just chucked her aside, he would have lost the Faith. he loses the Faith, he loses the Commonfolk. Lord Tywin would have had his entire Lannister Host whose commanders would have included Tywin himself, Kevan, Jamie, and Devan. Not to mention knowing Lord Tywin, he would have more than likely been able to recruit another High House, like Frey, to his cause. Lannister, Frey, Faith, Commoners, plus whatever he could buy in sellswords, which would be every company in the Free Cities. Gold Company with a chance to usurp Robert? Second Sons for the glory? it would be more evenly matched than you think...IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Come on. It would have been no contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 interesting there was a reference that early in the series... i honestly thought SoS was the first hint, awesome find. maybe i should have changed my post to ask, HOW, this would be possible... we know Marg is beautiful, and even expresses a bit of sexuality from time to time. that would certainly present a very attractive alternative to Cers, but this is not the Church of England, no divorces is Westeros. i am under the impression that the spouse has to die, or you need to renounce the 7 as your faith to break a MARRIAGE. Actually, there are divorces, of sort.Ser Quentyn Ball was the master-at-arms at the Red Keep. He taught my father and my uncles how to fight. The Great Bastards too. King Aegon promised to raise him to the Kingsguard, so Fireball made his wife join the silent sisters, only by the time a place came open, King Aegon was dead and King Daeron named Ser Willam Wylde instead. if he just chucks Cers aside, he has a Civil War with House Lannister, who would have the support of the Faith and the people. that makes for a sticky situation... why would Robert risk that for some ass? like i also said earlier, he could have f*cked Marg on the side with FAR less repercussions... Yes, it seems quite tricky. But people in-universe thought it doable: Renly did (obviously) and so did Loras, Varys did, or at least didn't dismiss it out of hand as impossibility, and I think I recall Cersei fearing that, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Come on. It would have been no contest. During the Rebellion, Robert's Bannermen had a cause, a purpose. this time around they are fighting for who he could, in the eyes of the 7, f*ck??? i do not see the same motivation for them. Robert did not inspire a helluva lot of people his last few years. he would not have been the same Commander either... at that point, i might even take Tywin in one on one combat vs Robert, let alone what Jamie would have done to him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 not much Tywin could have done???? i am going to type that again, there is not much TYWIN LANNISTER could have done... well, off the top of my head, not to be a broken record, but if Robert just chucked her aside, he would have lost the Faith. he loses the Faith, he loses the Commonfolk. Lord Tywin would have had his entire Lannister Host whose commanders would have included Tywin himself, Kevan, Jamie, and Devan. Not to mention knowing Lord Tywin, he would have more than likely been able to recruit another High House, like Frey, to his cause. Lannister, Frey, Faith, Commoners, plus whatever he could buy in sellswords, which would be every company in the Free Cities. Gold Company with a chance to usurp Robert? Second Sons for the glory? it would be more evenly matched than you think...IMORobert could send her to the silent sisters, like Quentyn Ball did with his wife.Why should Robert fear Tywin's army when he'll have the power of the Stormlands, North, Vale, Riverlands, and the Reach behind him? Why should he fear those commanders when he has men like Eddard, Brynden, Stannis, Randyll, and himself to lead his armies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Actually, there are divorces, of sort.Ser Quentyn Ball was the master-at-arms at the Red Keep. He taught my father and my uncles how to fight. The Great Bastards too. King Aegon promised to raise him to the Kingsguard, so Fireball made his wife join the silent sisters, only by the time a place came open, King Aegon was dead and King Daeron named Ser Willam Wylde instead. that proves nothing, honestly. he made his wife join SS, does it say that his marriage was renounced in eyes of the 7? was he allowed to re-marry in front of the 7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllOfTheHours Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I'm not so sure. I don't think Renly and the Tyrells knew about the twincest, or they would have acted sooner in that regard. Renly was banking on Margaery's supposed likeness to Lyanna and hoping that it would be enough for Robert to send Cersei packingThe sad part is that Renly's and Stannis' plans complemented each other and would have worked if they had worked together I wish this had happened. Westeros would be free of Cersei, the Baratheon brothers would still be allies, and Ned would probably still have his head and Winterfell. Of course then there would be no plot for ASoIaF, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Robert could send her to the silent sisters, like Quentyn Ball did with his wife.Why should Robert fear Tywin's army when he'll have the power of the Stormlands, North, Vale, Riverlands, and the Reach behind him? Why should he fear those commanders when he has men like Eddard, Brynden, Stannis, Randyll, and himself to lead his armies? that is all well and good, but Robert WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO REMARRY IN FRONT OF THE FAITH see above, Roberts bannermen have ZERO motivation to fight this war, other than duty...duty we all know throughout history how much that matters in War. the Americans should have never won the Revolution, and 100 years later the South should have been wiped out in months, not years if you just look at the tangible factors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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