Prince Rhaegar, hero, romantic or villian?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Whether people believe he´s a hero or not is up to them, so i won´t make my point more than once...

But the comparison with Robert is made too many times for a guy who we are still to have a full picture of...

I already saw the author talking off-books of Robert´s great generosity and that he was a good guy in some ways (along with a great deathbed dialogue) , that´s enough for a fan like me, Rhaegar i don´t have a clue so i tend to be less agressive towards him than a Robert fanboy usually is... for now, to me, he is just the young prince who died on the trident, and jon´s bio-father...

[King17]

He is an idiot really

[Chancho]

The ultimate douche.

[UnViserion]

He is an idiot really

The ultimate douche.

Brilliant input

probably the same person with multiple logins

[Migalhone]

Neither hero, romantic or villain.

Merely a prince who made an extremely questionable decision, bordering on foolishness/idiotic. He was aware of the state his father was, and apparently was making plans to try and remove him from power peacefully.


And then he decides to run away with a Lord's Paramount daughter, already bethroed to another Lord Paramount. Seriously, Rhaegar, wtf?

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I don't think Rhaegar was a "villain" per se but he was certainly far from a hero. The fact that his relationship with a 14 year old may or may not have been consensual aside, the guy dropped off the face of the Earth to hide out in a fucking tower with her for years, leaving his father who he knew was a fucking nut to drive everything into the ground and ultimately abandoning his wife and children to horrible fates.

The ultimate irony is when Targ fans hate on Robert for being a rapist and a neglectful ruler when Rhaegar did literally all the same shit.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

I don't think Rhaegar was a "villain" per se but he was certainly far from a hero. The fact that his relationship with a 14 year old may or may not have been consensual aside, the guy dropped off the face of the Earth to hide out in a fucking tower with her for years, leaving his father who he knew was a fucking nut to drive everything into the ground and ultimately abandoning his wife and children to horrible fates.

The ultimate irony is when Targ fans hate on Robert for being a rapist and a neglectful ruler when Rhaegar did literally all the same shit.

Where is the lie?

[LordStoneheart]

The ultimate irony is when Targ fans hate on Robert for being a rapist and a neglectful ruler when Rhaegar did literally all the same shit.

Most astute readers can clearly see that Rhaegar was not a rapist, and the full detail of the false spring are not yet known. But Robert's reign as king, not crown prince, is very well known. So it's not "literally the same shit." It's a parallel that is tenuous at best.

[Lyanna Stark]

But why, I ask you, did Brandon and Rickard even go south? Maybe if Rhaegar had been less prophecy obsessed he might have thought twice about pissing off 2 major families and then just leaving the situation in the hands of the mad king.

Brandon went south because he was a hotheaded tosser with no political acumen. Rickard went south to sort out the hot mess his son had landed himself into. Rhaegar wasn't even there. Aerys killed both the Starks. Rhaegar had no hand in it. you will not that not once does Ned go on about how Rhaegar killed his brother and father. Strange that. If he indeed considered Rhaegar respnsible for their murder, he would have thought about it.

Robert has plenty of faults, no doubt about it. But I would hesitate to say that he was "worse then Rhaegar in every way." Maybe Ned was blind to Robert's faults, but it sounds like you're pretty blind to Rhaegar's. Honestly, its hard to say what kind of a man he was. He sure talked a lot about changing things, but all his actions led to escalation and further violence. Maybe he could have let other people in on his "great plans."

All Rhaegar's actions led to escalation? Hardly. Rhaegar's hands were tied by his father, and if Lyanna was in fact tKotLT, then Rhaegar most likely tried to save her life from Aerys. But perhaps he should have sacrificed her to appease his mad father?

Oh and while we are at discussing flaws: Robert beat his wife. Robert wanted to send assassins after Daenarys. Robert turned away from Elia's and Rhaegar's dead children which caused Ned to turn away from him in anger. What good did Robert do? Nothing. Not. A. Thing.

And I'm not sure where you get the idea that Rhaegar and Elia didn't love each other at all, especially considering the flashback scene in the house of the undying. At the very least, I think you're jumping to conclusions in regards to their marriage. You simply don't have the evidence to make that kind of claim.

Well this is just daft. Rhaegar's and Elia's marriage was arranged. It was not a love match, that much is clear. While they might have respected eachother and not had the sort of awful marriage Robert and Cersei did, I find assuming that they randomly fell in love is preposterous. There are no evidence for this what so ever. The fact that people have a conversation (in the House of the Undying) doesn't mean they are in love.

[HairGrowsBack]

Well this is just daft. Rhaegar's and Elia's marriage was arranged. It was not a love match, that much is clear. While they might have respected eachother and not had the sort of awful marriage Robert and Cersei did, I find assuming that they randomly fell in love is preposterous. There are no evidence for this what so ever. The fact that people have a conversation (in the House of the Undying) doesn't mean they are in love.

Regardless of that I d argue it's still quite the dickish move to humiliate his wife in front of half the realm then abandoning her and their children to hook up with a 14 year-old.

[Lyanna Stark]

Regardless of that I d argue it's still quite the dickish move to humiliate his wife in front of half the realm then abandoning her and their children to hook up with a 14 year-old.

Do you believe that Lyanna was tKotLT? Cos if you do, there is likely a different explanation than just "hooking up", as it were.

[HairGrowsBack]

Do you believe that Lyanna was tKotLT? Cos if you do, there is likely a different explanation than just "hooking up", as it were.

Yes, I do, and yes, I give Rhaegar enough credit to assume there was more to it. I was just aiming for maximum impact tbh.

It is still my opinion, however, that what he put Elia and the kids through was awful.

[Lee-Sensei]

Brandon went south because he was a hotheaded tosser with no political acumen. Rickard went south to sort out the hot mess his son had landed himself into. Rhaegar wasn't even there. Aerys killed both the Starks. Rhaegar had no hand in it. you will not that not once does Ned go on about how Rhaegar killed his brother and father. Strange that. If he indeed considered Rhaegar respnsible for their murder, he would have thought about it.

All Rhaegar's actions led to escalation? Hardly. Rhaegar's hands were tied by his father, and if Lyanna was in fact tKotLT, then Rhaegar most likely tried to save her life from Aerys. But perhaps he should have sacrificed her to appease his mad father?

Oh and while we are at discussing flaws: Robert beat his wife. Robert wanted to send assassins after Daenarys. Robert turned away from Elia's and Rhaegar's dead children which caused Ned to turn away from him in anger. What good did Robert do? Nothing. Not. A. Thing.

Robert did good things, He protected the realm by killing dragons.

Robert has his faults, but so did Rhaegar. Abandoning his family for starters.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, I do, and yes, I give Rhaegar enough credit to assume there was more to it. I was just aiming for maximum impact tbh.

It is still my opinion, however, that what he put Elia and the kids through was awful.

I'm not sure he puts his children through anything that was particularly terrible tbh as they were not at the tourney as far as we know, so what were they put through exactly? If we compare him to Robert, who smashed in Joffrey's teeth, then Rhaegar seems fairly amiable. Or perhaps we should compare him to Aerys (Rhaella shielded Viserys from his rages) or Tywin (I'm sure Tyrion has things to say about Tywin's fathering) or what about Randyll Tarly? In comparison, Rhaegar's crimes are decidedly weaksauce.

As for Elia, yes, but that's a matter of pride and Dorne's political face. Which btw is the only sin Rhaegar is guilty of. Snubbing the wife he did not love.

Robert did good things, He protected the realm by killing dragons.

Robert has his faults, but so did Rhaegar. Abandoning his family for starters.

Robert didn't kill any dragons, unless you mean him smashing in Rhaegar's chest with a warhammer? Which is interesting since just about everyone seems to think Rhaegar would have made a better king than Robert.

Rhaegar did not abandon his family, he most likely set out to prevent Aerys from murdering Lyanna, aka the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As Rhaegar is Targaryen, and given the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, it is not a stretch of the imagination to think he took Lyanna for a second wife, as Elia was sickly and could not carry any more children. I do not see that this in any way is "abandoning your family".

Robert did what good thing? Knocked up loads of women with his bastards? Drunk lots of wine? Abused his squires? Sent assassins after Dany? Beat up Cersei? Beat up Joffrey? Nearly rode down Gendry? Ran the seven kingdoms into the ground financially? Rejoiced in Rhaenys' and baby Aegon's deaths? Please, tell me what great things Robert did? The man was an oaf, a bad king, a terrible husband and a downright awful father.

If you said "Jaime Lannister did good things" (since Jaime killed the *right* Targaryen) then I'd be inclined to agree with you, since Jaime has done both good and bad things, but Robert? A useless oaf.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Brandon went south because he was a hotheaded tosser with no political acumen. Rickard went south to sort out the hot mess his son had landed himself into. Rhaegar wasn't even there. Aerys killed both the Starks. Rhaegar had no hand in it. you will not that not once does Ned go on about how Rhaegar killed his brother and father. Strange that. If he indeed considered Rhaegar respnsible for their murder, he would have thought about it.

It's basic common sense not to leave a tense political situation with a guy who holds the ultimate authority to said situation, when he's crazy.

And Ned isn't that angry at the actual murderer of his dad and bro either.

Granted, I'll give you that there was a lot more going on behind the scenes with Rhaegar (the whole prophecy thing and whatnot) but what the hell did he think was going to happen? I wouldn't trust Aerys even before the Stark incident with a boiling kettle much less a dangerous political situation where Aerys has the ultimate authority.

Oh and while we are at discussing flaws: Robert beat his wife. Robert wanted to send assassins after Daenarys. Robert turned away from Elia's and Rhaegar's dead children which caused Ned to turn away from him in anger. What good did Robert do? Nothing. Not. A. Thing.

Robert was a negligent king and had a lot of vices (drinking, whoring, hosting waaay to many tourneys). But he had his good side as well. He was forgiving (that is when it didn't come to Targs) ex. Barristan Selmy, charismatic, and generous ex. handed out castles that he could have kept for himself to Renly and Stannis. He had his good side and did good things like many other people do.

I'm not sure he puts his children through anything that was particularly terrible tbh as they were not at the tourney as far as we know, so what were they put through exactly?

He left his children and wife with a madman.

To the OP: I don't like Rhaegar for various reasons already stated by other users. I'm willing to accept that he was ultimately an alright guy that lacked political skills, though.

EDIT: I have revised my argument heavily.

[Toos]

Rhaegar did not abandon his family, he most likely set out to prevent Aerys from murdering Lyanna, aka the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As Rhaegar is Targaryen, and given the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, it is not a stretch of the imagination to think he took Lyanna for a second wife, as Elia was sickly and could not carry any more children. I do not see that this in any way is "abandoning your family".

Is there some evidence that Aerys knew identity of KotLT? I see this theory before but never how he found out year after tourney or why would Rhaegar take Lyanna to Tower of Joy instead Winterfell.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Is there some evidence that Aerys knew identity of KotLT? I see this theory before but never how he found out year after tourney or why would Rhaegar take Lyanna to Tower of Joy instead Winterfell.

No there isn't, and yes it doesn't make sense to draw even more attention to her by supposedly faking an abduction. If that was the case, a warning for her to hide would suffice.

[The Speedwagon]

Why does everyone assume the blue roses are a sign of affection from Rhaegar? That is a serious sign of disrespect to the Starks if you pay attention to their history. That is what was left when the Stark daughter was stolen by Bael the Bard. If Rhaegar was such a well read scholar he would know the legend and understand that giving a Stark a reminder of that incident would be a serious insult.

[Lee-Sensei]

Robert didn't kill any dragons, unless you mean him smashing in Rhaegar's chest with a warhammer? Which is interesting since just about everyone seems to think Rhaegar would have made a better king than Robert.

Rhaegar did not abandon his family, he most likely set out to prevent Aerys from murdering Lyanna, aka the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As Rhaegar is Targaryen, and given the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, it is not a stretch of the imagination to think he took Lyanna for a second wife, as Elia was sickly and could not carry any more children. I do not see that this in any way is "abandoning your family".

Robert did what good thing? Knocked up loads of women with his bastards? Drunk lots of wine? Abused his squires? Sent assassins after Dany? Beat up Cersei? Beat up Joffrey? Nearly rode down Gendry? Ran the seven kingdoms into the ground financially? Rejoiced in Rhaenys' and baby Aegon's deaths? Please, tell me what great things Robert did? The man was an oaf, a bad king, a terrible husband and a downright awful father.

If you said "Jaime Lannister did good things" (since Jaime killed the *right* Targaryen) then I'd be inclined to agree with you, sincpe Jaime has done both good and bad things, but Robert? A useless oaf.

1) A lot of people thought Robert and Robb would be good Kings too. Give Rhaegars clear lack of common sense, I'd say he wouldn't be much better.

2) Well he certainly wasn't there when they needed him.

3) What Robert did to his squires was harmless.

4) Robert hit Cersei twice. One time being when she threatened to murder his daughter.

5) He disiplined Joffrey. Joff had cut open a pregnant cat.

6) You're reaching. He wasn't trying to hurt Gendry.

7) He didn't enjoy their deaths. He wasn't smiling about it.

Robert did do good things, but telling you would be pointless.

[Han Snow]

A lot of poorly made arguments on this thread, a lot of blind hatred because of poor reading comprehension skills.

I'll say only this:

Robert Baratheon is an actual RAPIST!

Cersei may be a murdering sociopath from a very early age, but that should not be an excuse for Robert, he doesn't know that.

“Robert would force her legs apart…”

“…push her legs apart and use her … when the drink was in him….”

"She was always sore afterward…”

Robert has the need to dominate, punish, force himself. To rape.

That is not Rhaegar, that is not what Ned even remotely hints at when thinking about the guy and his sister. The only person who actually accuses Rhaegar of rape is the grand rapist himself, Robert. Selmy, Ned, Jaime, Jon Con...They all have a very different image of the man implanted in their minds. I wonder why? Maybe because he actually was a good guy. A man who had to deal with a mentally ill father, who fall in love with a girl who his deranged father was trying to find and punish, who had to deal with the high Lords playing their vicious game of thrones trying to depose his sick father and rightfully so. And all that even before the Robert's rebellion. Rhaegar himself was certainly trying to deal with his father, but not in a way that destroys the Targs as a family. Maybe when Lyanna told him that she was pregnant he wanted to spend some happy times with the one he loved while he still could. Giving that tower it's name: Tower of Joy. He clearly miscalculated the severity of the situation unfolding in the rest of the kingdom, the severity of his father's condition and how all of it was going to play out. That makes him a tragic character, a tragic figure, not an evil one. Not a villain. Far from it.