The silver dragon Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ffs, I'm simply stating the law! If you have a REASONABLE and genuine fear of attack, you have a right to defend yourself. Not to mention, you've still not addressed my actual point, which was that arresting someone on suspicion of treason is not unreasonable at all. But I know, I kniw, Blackfyres are great and godly and Bloodraven sucks, obviously i'm not here to argue the law, nor have i stated that what daeron did was unlawful. i'm arguing the point that daeron stated the conflict. the point you were arguing was. "bitter steel started the war" bitter steel did not, daeron without warning. sent his most elite warriors to drag daemon to the red keep. wars have been stated for far less than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Ah, that makes much more sense. Although I don't think that the Aenys incident was purely Machiavellian. BR may have truly thought he was acting in the interests of the realm. That in itself is what "Machiavellian" refers to. The end justifying the means.Though I feel compelled to point out that Machiavelli himself was actually one of the most misunderstood men of all time. His infamous novel "The Prince" was a work of biting satire that history has taken seriously and declared Machiavelli to be a sinister figure promoting the worst of human behaviour. Ignoring the many plays and treatises that Machiavelli wrote before and after "The Prince" which was in favour of a republic as opposed to a monarchy/oligarchy. It's a pity for him, though when a man has a first name like Niccolo, you just know people will label him a villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic G Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 How is it self defense when Daeron sends men after Daemon but guaranteed treason when Daemon runs from armed men coming after him? I'm pretty sure Daemon was looking after his family and that's why he ran. And Bittersteel and Daemon are the biggest badasses since Aegon the Dragon!! Go Blackfyres!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Bloodraven fan here, so of course I think Bittersteel can go fly a kite. #TeamBlackwood2K5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 i'm not here to argue the law, nor have i stated that what daeron did was unlawful. i'm arguing the point that daeron stated the conflict. the point you were arguing was. "bitter steel started the war" bitter steel did not, daeron without warning. sent his most elite warriors to drag daemon to the red keep. wars have been stated for far less than that. No, because Daemon clearly was plotting a rebellion against Daeron, so Daeron was completely in the right for sending men to arrest Daemon. Daeron had a reputation for being just and good-hearted as well as intelligent, and I doubt he would have his half-brother arrested whom he had been generous to without a reasonable justification. BR likely wasn't lying, and his intelligence network was shown to be good in TMK. Without warning? Would you expect Daeron to send someone to Daemon saying "I'm going to arrest you?" Doing that results in the person being arrested in trying to escape. Daeron wasn't wrong in sending KG given Daemon was a warrior prodigy as exemplified at Redgrass Field and in the melee for squires. Bittersteel had been goading Daemon into overthrowing Daeron for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic G Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 No, because Daemon clearly was plotting a rebellion against Daeron, so Daeron was completely in the right for sending men to arrest Daemon. Daeron had a reputation for being just and good-hearted as well as intelligent, and I doubt he would have his half-brother arrested whom he had been generous to without a reasonable justification. BR likely wasn't lying, and his intelligence network was shown to be good in TMK. Without warning? Would you expect Daeron to send someone to Daemon saying "I'm going to arrest you?" Doing that results in the person being arrested in trying to escape. Daeron wasn't wrong in sending KG given Daemon was a warrior prodigy as exemplified at Redgrass Field and in the melee for squires. Bittersteel had been goading Daemon into overthrowing Daeron for years. Clearly plotting? What chapter/book was that in? Same one that showed how Daemon was easily manipulated? Events shaped Daemon not words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The silver dragon Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 No, because Daemon clearly was plotting a rebellion against Daeron, so Daeron was completely in the right for sending men to arrest Daemon. Daeron had a reputation for being just and good-hearted as well as intelligent, and I doubt he would have his half-brother arrested whom he had been generous to without a reasonable justification. BR likely wasn't lying, and his intelligence network was shown to be good in TMK. Without warning? Would you expect Daeron to send someone to Daemon saying "I'm going to arrest you?" Doing that results in the person being arrested in trying to escape. Daeron wasn't wrong in sending KG given Daemon was a warrior prodigy as exemplified at Redgrass Field and in the melee for squires. Bittersteel had been goading Daemon into overthrowing Daeron for years. 1.) whether or not daemon was plotting does not change the fact that daeron stuck the first blow. and just stated the war. 2.) the know liar was not lying? and you know this how??? are you a hippie/psychic? 3.) it definitely gives you moral high ground. for example if i was daemon and my bother sends the deadliest warriors in the realm after me. am gonna take that as a fact that you have confirmed my guilt in the matter. and thus will do the sane thing and rebel against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 People are talking about arrest procedures with a lot more contextual jurisprudence than is ever demonstrated in the books. If the King arrests you, odds are pretty good you'll be tortured and/or die, or at least live out your life in chains or the Wall. Medieval monarchs don't arrest people to start some process; they are the process. The judgment is theirs. If they have you arrested, they have pretty much already passed judgment.If they want to, they can allow you trial by combat. If they don't want to, they won't. If they want to make a demonstration of your guilt,they might allow some kind of public hearing, but the jury is still the guy who had you arrested. If they are secure on their throne and/or it's likely you'll win the trial by combat, you'll die escaping or commit suicide before it ever comes to that. There is no Provisions of Oxford/Magna Carta. The Kings aren't above the law, they ARE the law. It's essentially mafia mechanisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The silver dragon, please tell me of any state, in any period of human history, that didn't arrest people that were plotting against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 i'm not here to argue the law, nor have i stated that what daeron did was unlawful. i'm arguing the point that daeron stated the conflict. the point you were arguing was. "bitter steel started the war" bitter steel did not, daeron without warning. sent his most elite warriors to drag daemon to the red keep. wars have been stated for far less than that.Yes, wars have been started for less. But that speaks more about the person who starts them, than the person doing the sensible thing and ordering the arrest. Daeron was taking preemptive measures to protect the Throne from those plotting treason. There is nothing wrong with this. Was Ned wrong, when he wanted the Lannister's taken in Game?Also, I'd hope Daeron did do so without warning. Kind of counter-productive to give someone a heads up that you're coming to arrest them and give them time to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouseHarrison Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 He was a stubborn man. Should have taken a hint after the first Blackfyre Rebellion. None of the other 3 he was behind had any hope of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The silver dragon Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Yes, wars have been started for less. But that speaks more about the person who starts them, than the person doing the sensible thing and ordering the arrest. Daeron was taking preemptive measures to protect the Throne from those plotting treason. There is nothing wrong with this. Was Ned wrong, when he wanted the Lannister's taken in Game?Also, I'd hope Daeron did do so without warning. Kind of counter-productive to give someone a heads up that you're coming to arrest them and give them time to run. the person ordering the arrest=the person who starts the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loic Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'd take Bittersteel over his annoying and let's not forget magical, special, albino, red-eyed, warg, NW commander, uncaught NW deserter, last of the greenseers, currently longest living human, Master of Whispers, wizard, friend, lover of the hottest woman in the world, spy, adventurer, incredibly skilled archer - but nonetheless also wielder of a Valyrian steel sword just because - brother every single time. Not that I particularly like him, either.The touch of the Golden Company's skull is pretty nice, gotta admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Bittersteel was a giant loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 the person ordering the arrest=the person who starts the war.No they aren't. You don't seem to grasp that it's lawful to arrest someone. It's not a cause to go to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The silver dragon Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 No they aren't. You don't seem to grasp that it's lawful to arrest someone. It's not a cause to go to war. 99% of people would go to war if you arrested them. (especially in the mafia like seven kingdom jail systems.) thus it is a rational reason to declare war on someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 the person ordering the arrest=the person who starts the war. Daeron was the king he had every right to arrest Daemon, who was the first to declare war to his brother and rightful king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 daeron started the first blackfrye rebellion. not bitter steel. How exactly Daeron did it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 99% of people would go to war if you arrested them. (especially in the mafia like seven kingdom jail systems.) thus it is a rational reason to declare war on someone.Sure igs a rational reason to declare war, if you are an idiot or believe in a system without justice or the ability to enforce the law.I cant tell if you actually believe this nonesense you're spouting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 How exactly Daeron did it?Cuz waaaah! Boohoo, Bloodraven and Daeron suck and Bittersteel and Daemon can do whatever the hell they like without consequence, apparrntly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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