Opinions on Bittersteel?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Stannis Baratheon 1.0.

[James Arryn]

Most apropos nickname in the legendarium.

I kinda think of him as Stannis' personality in Robert's body.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He was hot.

[Fire Eater]

Bittersteel is a good warrior and commander. He is canny in founding the Golden Company, one of the most effective fighting forces in the world. However, he never seemed to realize he driving his brother and his house into the grave with the quest for the crown. He was trying to advance his position setting one half-brother against the other. He likely had his nephew Daemon II killed so he could crown Haegon.

daeron started the first blackfrye rebellion.

not bitter steel.

Daemon was plotting, and Daeron was within his rights to arrest Daemon.

[The silver dragon]

Bittersteel is a good warrior and commander. He is canny in founding the Golden Company, one of the most effective fighting forces in the world. However, he never seemed to realize he driving his brother and his house into the grave with the quest for the crown. He was trying to advance his position setting one half-brother against the other. He likely had his nephew Daemon II killed so he could crown Haegon.

Daemon was plotting, and Daeron was within his rights to arrest Daemon.

well for one, it does not matter whether or not he was plotting.

It's like going into a bar seeing someone who looks like they are about to fight you, and proceeding to punch them in the nose preemptively.

whether or not they were going to start something is irrelevant, because you just stated something.

[HexMachina]

well for one, it does not matter whether or not he was plotting.

It's like going into a bar seeing someone who looks like they are about to fight you, and proceeding to punch them in the nose preemptively.

whether or not they were going to start something is irrelevant, because you just stated something.

Conspiring to commit treason is a crime. I don't see why this is so difficult a concept to grasp.

ETA: as to your bar scenario, yes, in some situations you can ale preemptive strikes if you believe you are in danger. It's called self-defence, so long as you have a reasonable, genuine belief you're in danger

[The silver dragon]

Conspiring to commit treason is a crime. I don't see why this is so difficult a concept to grasp.

ETA: as to your bar scenario, yes, in some situations you can ale preemptive strikes if you believe you are in danger. It's called self-defence, so long as you have a reasonable, genuine belief you're in danger

you don't know that for certain and neither do i (and it has to be remembered that the person who accused daemon of plotting treason was blood raven, an individual less trustworthy than tywin).indeed maester yandel says it was impossible from blood raven to have know whether or not daemon was plotting.

which means blood raven did not bring hard well know tangible evidence to the table.

which leaves two scenarios.

1.) Daemon a guy who was usually honorable, and had refused bitter steel's and fire balls urging to go to war for years, deiced that specific year to rebel for no reason. and blood raven being a warg was eavesdropping.

or

2.) Blood Raven being a ruthless honer less liar who would do anything, no matter how immoral to bring his enemies down.

decided to use his political power falsify evidence to incriminate daemon and his allies (one of whom was bitter steel). with the goal of ultimately bringing down bitter steel.

[Knight Of Winter]

snip

So, your source about Bloodraven's credibility is Yandel, guy who lived 100 years after the fact and belongs to an order known to despise magic (which BR certainly uses). Because, if Yandel says something, that must be true, right?

Really, the scenario is easy to imagine. Daemon Blackfyre, known to be prone to persuasions, was after years to manipulating, finally convinced by his cronies to openly rebel against the IT. Bloodraven heard of it and reported it to Daeron. Daemon the evaded arrest and rebelled.

The other scenario requires Daeron, peaceful king who did his best to respectfully treat Daemon for years and ensure his comfortable living, to suddenly turn the tables and arrest him for the lulz; and Bloodraven (who for all his faults, loyally served Targaryen king, and not himself, for years), to suddenly act on petty vendettas.

Or, if you're inclined to show it as a matter of trust - I trust more Daeron's version (who was known to be an honourable and intelligent king, wanted peace and ably ruled the country), than Daemon's one (who, for all his chivalry, surrounded himself with ambitious warmongers and bigots, and despised education).

[HexMachina]

you don't know that for certain and neither do i (and it has to be remembered that the person who accused daemon of plotting treason was blood raven, an individual less trustworthy than tywin).indeed maester yandel says it was impossible from blood raven to have know whether or not daemon was plotting.

which means blood raven did not bring hard well know tangible evidence to the table.

which leaves two scenarios.

1.) Daemon a guy who was usually honorable, and had refused bitter steel's and fire balls urging to go to war for years, deiced that specific year to rebel for no reason. and blood raven being a warg was eavesdropping.

or

2.) Blood Raven being a ruthless honer less liar who would do anything, no matter how immoral to bring his enemies down.

decided to use his political power falsify evidence to incriminate daemon and his allies (one of whom was bitter steel). with the goal of ultimately bringing down bitter steel.

So I assume you are against police arresting someone on "suspicion" of committing a crime, and taking them into custody? Because that is what is going on here; Daemon was not being sentenced to death. If he had nothing to hide, he has nothing to fear from being arrested by Daeron, who is not the type to torture or kill people on a whim.

And as Knight of Winter says, how could Yandel, who lived over 100 years after the fact, possibly know that Bloodraven had no evidence?

[The silver dragon]

So, your source about Bloodraven's credibility is Yandel, guy who lived 100 years after the fact and belongs to an order known to despise magic (which BR certainly uses). Because, if Yandel says something, that must be true, right?

Really, the scenario is easy to imagine. Daemon Blackfyre, known to be prone to persuasions, was after years to manipulating, finally convinced by his cronies to openly rebel against the IT. Bloodraven heard of it and reported it to Daeron. Daemon the evaded arrest and rebelled.

The other scenario requires Daeron, peaceful king who did his best to respectfully treat Daemon for years and ensure his comfortable living, to suddenly turn the tables and arrest him for the lulz; and Bloodraven (who for all his faults, loyally served Targaryen king, and not himself, for years), to suddenly act on petty vendettas.

Or, if you're inclined to show it as a matter of trust - I trust more Daeron's version (who was known to be an honourable and intelligent king, wanted peace and ably ruled the country), than Daemon's one (who, for all his chivalry, surrounded himself with ambitious warmongers and bigots, and despised education).

1.) :dunno: there's no glaring contradictions to what yandel says about that era, and really we have so little facts about that era, and what we do know is biased one way or another.

2.) that makes no sense absolutely none at all, for a person to be "prone to persuasions" to take years to be manipulated. a person whose easily manipulable would be turned to a political faction in a couple weeks, not eight long years.

3.) it does not require daeron to be evil, or doing anything for the lolz. It just requires Blood raven being skilled enough to convince daeron that daemon is a threat.

3a.) sure because, blood raven is too morally righteous to act on petty vendettas. :rolleyes:

[Lost Melnibonean]

Conspiring to commit treason is a crime. I don't see why this is so difficult a concept to grasp.

ETA: as to your bar scenario, yes, in some situations you can ale preemptive strikes if you believe you are in danger. It's called self-defence, so long as you have a reasonable, genuine belief you're in danger

That rationale could justify a first strike nuclear launch. In fact, it might even require it .

[HexMachina]

That rationale could justify a first strike nuclear launch. In fact, it might even require it .

No it wouldnt, because its subject to a degree of reasonableness/proportionality. You dont use a jackhammer to open a tin of beans, just as its entirely disproportionate to protect yourswlf from being slapped by stabbing someone.

[The silver dragon]

No it wouldnt, because its subject to a degree of reasonableness/proportionality. You dont use a jackhammer to open a tin of beans, just as its entirely disproportionate to protect yourswlf from being slapped by stabbing someone.

if you attack first like that. you will increase the likelihood of reasonability being thrown out the door.

because you have now escalated the situation.

[Tijgy]

you don't know that for certain and neither do i (and it has to be remembered that the person who accused daemon of plotting treason was blood raven, an individual less trustworthy than tywin).indeed maester yandel says it was impossible from blood raven to have know whether or not daemon was plotting.

which means blood raven did not bring hard well know tangible evidence to the table.

which leaves two scenarios.

1.) Daemon a guy who was usually honorable, and had refused bitter steel's and fire balls urging to go to war for years, deiced that specific year to rebel for no reason. and blood raven being a warg was eavesdropping.

or

2.) Blood Raven being a ruthless honer less liar who would do anything, no matter how immoral to bring his enemies down.

decided to use his political power falsify evidence to incriminate daemon and his allies (one of whom was bitter steel). with the goal of ultimately bringing down bitter steel.

I dont have the WOIAF but how old was BR actually then? I know he was 21 on the battle of the Redgrass Field. A bit young to be entirely ruthless to bring his enemies, no? Was he at this time already Master of Whisperers?

It is maybe indeed possible he had no tangible evidence but we all know BR could indeed have known if Daemon intended to rebel. His spies? His powers as a warg and greenseeer. I think it would be strange to say it was impossible to know something for BR. (unless his powers were not really so far developed).

[HexMachina]

if you attack first like that. you will increase the likelihood of reasonability being thrown out the door.

because you have now escalated the situation.

Ffs, I'm simply stating the law! If you have a REASONABLE and genuine fear of attack, you have a right to defend yourself. Not to mention, you've still not addressed my actual point, which was that arresting someone on suspicion of treason is not unreasonable at all. But I know, I kniw, Blackfyres are great and godly and Bloodraven sucks, obviously

[The Holy Goat]

Bitter: he was a spiteful, vengeful man who poisoned his friends and family and caused all kinds of trouble due to the percieved slights he suffered.

Steel: He was one determined bastard though, and I can't deny that he was badass and with a real drive to make his dreams come true.

Overalll consensus: I have respect for him, but I don't like him. Much trouble could've been avoided if not for him.

[Wmarshal]

I consider Bittersteel a man who along with Bloodraven destroyed their brother and his children.

[Fire Eater]

well for one, it does not matter whether or not he was plotting.

It's like going into a bar seeing someone who looks like they are about to fight you, and proceeding to punch them in the nose preemptively.

whether or not they were going to start something is irrelevant, because you just stated something.

It does matter. Conspiring rebellion is itself an act of treason as has been pointed out.

Except BR had spies and abilities as a warg and greenseer, and was likely Daeron's Master of Whisperers. I doubt Daemon was able to raise an army quickly after that incident without spending time formulating plans for his rebellion and contacting people who would knowingly support him. Daeron, given his scholarly disposition, was acting on sound information.

I consider Bittersteel a man who along with Bloodraven destroyed their brother and his children.

Only the the Targaryens seemed to gain enough sense to do away with BR. Daemon should have done the same to Bittersteel. Bittersteel was loyal to Daemon and his house with the exception of Daemon II, but he was willing to get his brother to put himself in harm's way to further his own ambitions.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Bittersteel caused a lot of unnecessary trouble and bloodshed. He talked Daemon Blackfyre into going on a rampage which resulted in housands slaughtered. And the effects of his actions are being felt even now, with fAegon's invasion of the Stormlands. And all this because of his own ambitions. I can admire his loyalty but his reckless ambition cancels it out, and then there's also the fact that he seems to have been miserable company to boot.

:agree:

I mostly think of him as a surly, bitter (heh) bore of a man who was resentful of almost everything.

[Alaynsa Starne]

True, but luring a claimant into the city under false pretense he will be allowed to peacefully try and press his claim, and then promptly imprison and kill him as soon as he enters, certainly is.(i'm refering to the Aenys Blackfyre incident).

Ah, that makes much more sense. Although I don't think that the Aenys incident was purely Machiavellian. BR may have truly thought he was acting in the interests of the realm.