Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Cuz waaaah! Boohoo, Bliodraven and Daeron suck and Bittersteel and Daemon can do whatever the hell they like, it seems QFT. I mean Daeron should had give the Throne to Daemon because Bittersteel wanted to and he should had killed Bloodraven because Bittersteel wanted to. I bet my virtual left hand that the next argument will be about Aerys II, Rickard, Brandon and the Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Sure igs a rational reason to declare war, if you are an idiot or believe in a system without justice or the ability to enforce the law.I cant tell if you actually believe this nonesense you're spoutingOkay, how is someone a idiot for fighting against a arrest that was not proper? Where is the justice were the men accusing are the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Cadwan Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 He had the best and catchiest war cry named after him 'Beneath the Gold the Bitter steel!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 That in itself is what "Machiavellian" refers to. The end justifying the means.Though I feel compelled to point out that Machiavelli himself was actually one of the most misunderstood men of all time. His infamous novel "The Prince" was a work of biting satire that history has taken seriously and declared Machiavelli to be a sinister figure promoting the worst of human behaviour. Ignoring the many plays and treatises that Machiavelli wrote before and after "The Prince" which was in favour of a republic as opposed to a monarchy/oligarchy. It's a pity for him, though when a man has a first name like Niccolo, you just know people will label him a villain.Intentions matter. Machiavellian is typically used to describe people with selfish motives usually involving power or wealth and is not universally used to describe rulers who have to make hard decisions. Not every "the ends justify the means" action is Machiavellian. For instance, Ned sacrificing his honor for the safety of his daughters isn't Machiavellian. BR murdering one man to avoid a percieved threat of war need not be described as Machiavellian if that is indeed they way events occured and if BR intentions were genuinely honorable. Though I suppose this is a matter of personal opinion. And I thought that "The Prince" was fairly widely understood as satire. I've never heard anyone else claim differently, though perhaps that just depends on which circles we run in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 And I thought that "The Prince" was fairly widely understood as satire. I've never heard anyone else claim differently, though perhaps that just depends on which circles we run in. Most people who I've spoken with about Machiavelli thought he was genuinely sucking up to the ruling Medicis by instructing them on how to rule. Even my university professor was surprised at the notion that he was being satirical. And if everyone knew that he didn't actually mean any of it, why would they associate his name with that behaviour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettes Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 A power-hungry, self-centered, stupid little shit, but an admirable Warrior nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaynsa Starne Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Most people who I've spoken with about Machiavelli thought he was genuinely sucking up to the ruling Medicis by instructing them on how to rule. Even my university professor was surprised at the notion that he was being satirical. And if everyone knew that he didn't actually mean any of it, why would they associate his name with that behaviour?Weird. Which university, if you don't mind me asking? I was always taught that it's satire. And Machiavelli wrote The Prince, so it makes sense that his name is associated with the content of his work even if he himself wouldn't approve of the actions depicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic G Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Yes, wars have been started for less. But that speaks more about the person who starts them, than the person doing the sensible thing and ordering the arrest. Daeron was taking preemptive measures to protect the Throne from those plotting treason. There is nothing wrong with this. Was Ned wrong, when he wanted the Lannister's taken in Game?Also, I'd hope Daeron did do so without warning. Kind of counter-productive to give someone a heads up that you're coming to arrest them and give them time to run. Ned was also arrested and killed for not going along with the Joffrey/Cersie rule, for treason iirc? Why aren't they called saints as well and Ned called easily manipulated/warmonger/overreaching?Cuz waaaah! Boohoo, Bloodraven and Daeron suck and Bittersteel and Daemon can do whatever the hell they like without consequence, apparrntly[/quot] You could easily flip those names around and it would explain your side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 So, your source about Bloodraven's credibility is Yandel, guy who lived 100 years after the fact and belongs to an order known to despise magic (which BR certainly uses). Because, if Yandel says something, that must be true, right? Really, the scenario is easy to imagine. Daemon Blackfyre, known to be prone to persuasions, was after years to manipulating, finally convinced by his cronies to openly rebel against the IT. Bloodraven heard of it and reported it to Daeron. Daemon the evaded arrest and rebelled. The other scenario requires Daeron, peaceful king who did his best to respectfully treat Daemon for years and ensure his comfortable living, to suddenly turn the tables and arrest him for the lulz; and Bloodraven (who for all his faults, loyally served Targaryen king, and not himself, for years), to suddenly act on petty vendettas. Or, if you're inclined to show it as a matter of trust - I trust more Daeron's version (who was known to be an honourable and intelligent king, wanted peace and ably ruled the country), than Daemon's one (who, for all his chivalry, surrounded himself with ambitious warmongers and bigots, and despised education).To add to this, it should be impossible for Varys to know much of what he does - we know he utilises secret passageways and "little birds". Why is it impossible for Brynden to have had spies too?Not to mention that Brynden may have been close with Daemon once. Despite the animosity between Aegor and Brynden, Daemon may have reached out to Brynden - who in turn used that to gather evidence to submit to Daeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hear me bore Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 If Bittersteel was a sort of warmonger, so was Aegon I. That's how crowns are won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 So Daemon had no intention to rebel, Daeron tried to arrest him thinking that he'd rebel "within the turn of the moon", Daemon fled, and a rebellion broke out. It doesn't seem like there was a prolonged period of time between those two events, and it would be needed to prepare a rebellion from scratch (RR comes to mind). It looks like he declared himself king within the turn of the moon. As if he had been prepared to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 1.) whether or not daemon was plotting does not change the fact that daeron stuck the first blow. and just stated the war. 2.) the know liar was not lying? and you know this how??? are you a hippie/psychic? 3.) it definitely gives you moral high ground. for example if i was daemon and my bother sends the deadliest warriors in the realm after me. am gonna take that as a fact that you have confirmed my guilt in the matter. and thus will do the sane thing and rebel against you. 1) Would you just expect Daeron to wait for Daemon to declare himself and endanger Daeron's family and the stability of the realm rather than send men to arrest him to avoid a rebellion altogether? Daemon made the first move when he was organizing a rebellion. He was the one who was striking first. Daeron had little choice. 2) BR is a spymaster, and has shown loyalty to Daeron. He had little to gain from Daemon's arrest. Show me where he habitually lies. You have no evidence to prove he was lying, and the burden of proof is on you. His actions have been for the security of the realm for the most part. As to the last, very mature response (sarcasm). 3) Men being sent to arrest you for plotting to overthrow your own brother gives you the moral high ground? So Daemon is plotting to overthrow Daeron in a bloody rebellion, and Daeron sends men to arrest Daemon to avoid that, yet you say Daemon has the moral high ground? The KG weren't sent to kill Daemon but take him to the RK. Except Daemon knew he was guilty. The army he amassed in a short time shows he had been organizing a rebellion for a while, and it wasn't spontaneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Stannis 1.0 . But before the saga ends Bittersteel is going to make Aerys and Viserys Targaryen or Roose and Ramsay look like choirboys . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratmancampidori Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Loved Bittersteel, loved his methods, sad he failed. Hated Bloodraven, hated his methods, loved he failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Loved Bittersteel, loved his methods, sad he failed. Hated Bloodraven, hated his methods, loved he failed.Did Bloodraven really fail? Because I've counted exactly 0 Blackfyre Kings since those wars started, and several Targaryen Kings. Seems Bloodraven succeeded to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Did Bloodraven really fail? Because I've counted exactly 0 Blackfyre Kings since those wars started, and several Targaryen Kings. Seems Bloodraven succeeded to me Let alone the fact that a living three eyed crow is just cooler than a skull, even one adorned with gold. I imagine Bittersteel's betrothal didn't do his cheer much good. It must have been a sad life waiting for a little kid to grow up while the half-brother you hated had the woman you desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikstar3 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Tough bastard (no pun intended), a formidable warrior, but ultimately a headstrong, overly-ambitious, self-centered piece of shit. He had his moments, but I'd take Bloodraven or even Daemon over him anyday. His battlecry (Beneath the gold the bitter steel) is awesome though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Tough bastard (no pun intended), a formidable warrior, but ultimately a headstrong, overly-ambitious, self-centered piece of shit. He had his moments, but I'd take Bloodraven or even Daemon over him anyday. His battlecry (Beneath the gold the bitter steel) is awesome though. Glad to hear it cause his minion Leaf is fixin to whip up another batch of paste and you're up next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrell_like_Squirrel Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Bless this OP, bless him oh lord! I'm a BIG Bittersteel fan. I love how fascinating of a character he is. His staying power, dedication, military brilliance, all of it. I have a tendency to love characters everyone hates, i e Roose, Tywin, Stannis, and Bittersteel as well. I think its interesting that so many are ready to condemn him, when Bloodraven has, no pun intended, just as much blood on his hands. Bittersteel just strikes me as a real force of nature. I'd like to read a story by Martin featuring him. And I'd really love to get into his head. Bravo to this OP, Bittersteel FTW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two and a Halfhand Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I can think of Bittersteel without remindingof Victarion:-Both battle hardened warriors-Known for their defeats in battle-Hated their magical brother-Not very good in social skills-Brutes who kick asses in Essos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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