Opinions on Bittersteel?

[James Steller]

I was curious what people think of Aegor Rivers, whether they view him in a positive or negative light.

Personally, in the context of his world, he's one of the more interesting characters from the pre-ASOIAF canon. He's surly and asocial, sure, but he's also a great warrior. Sure he talked Daemon Blackyre into creating a conflict which tore through the Seven Kingdoms, but he alone stood by his half brother and his descendants to the very end. And it's not like his enemies were saints themselves. Bloodraven is every inch the Machiavellian, given how he defeated the Blackfyres through archery and treachery. Bittersteel spent his life creating the Golden Company and looking after Daemon's children so that they might claim the Iron Throne. I don't approve of Bittersteel ultimately, but I can admire his dedication and loyalty to what he believed in.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I was curious what people think of Aegor Rivers, whether they view him in a positive or negative light.

Personally, in the context of his world, he's one of the more interesting characters from the pre-ASOIAF canon. He's surly and asocial, sure, but he's also a great warrior. Sure he talked Daemon Blackyre into creating a conflict which tore through the Seven Kingdoms, but he alone stood by his half brother and his descendants to the very end. And it's not like his enemies were saints themselves. Bloodraven is every inch the Machiavellian, given how he defeated the Blackfyres through archery and treachery. Bittersteel spent his life creating the Golden Company and looking after Daemon's children so that they might claim the Iron Throne. I don't approve of Bittersteel ultimately, but I can admire his dedication and loyalty to what he believed in.

I really, really hope that the George gives us Bittersteel in The Tales of Dunk and Egg. It's only fair since he gave us the brother who hated him in The Mystery Knight.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Bittersteel caused a lot of unnecessary trouble and bloodshed. He talked Daemon Blackfyre into going on a rampage which resulted in housands slaughtered. And the effects of his actions are being felt even now, with fAegon's invasion of the Stormlands. And all this because of his own ambitions.

I can admire his loyalty but his reckless ambition cancels it out, and then there's also the fact that he seems to have been miserable company to boot.

[kieran wilkie]

Not fun to be around i imagine, but he's an awesome worrier and the fact he made a free company is awesome in and of itself. Also what he had ordered done with his skull was pretty badass.

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[Lost Melnibonean]

Not fun to be around i imagine, but he's an awesome worrier and the fact he made a free company is awesome in and of itself. Also what he had ordered done with his skull was pretty badass.

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Aegon's fate...

On his deathbed, Ser Aegor Rivers had famously commanded his men to boil the flesh from his skull, dip it in gold, and carry it before them when they crossed the sea to retake Westeros. His successors had followed his example.

The Lost Lord, Dance 24

North of Yi Ti, the windswept plains and rolling hills that stretch from the Golden Empire's frontiers to the desolate shores of the shivering sea are dominated by a race of mounted warriors called the Jogos Nhai. Like the Dothraki...

...A thousand rival clans joined together and raised up a jhattar [the jhat of jhats and war leader of the whole people], a woman in man's mail named Zhea the barren...

...Zhea isolated each of Lo Bu's thirteen armies ... and destroyed them each in turn...

...Amongst the slain was Lo Bu himself... When his severed head was presented to Zhea, she commanded that the flesh be stripped from the bone, so that his skull might be dipped in gold and made into her drinking cup. From that time to this, every jhattar of the Jogos Nhai has drunk fermented zorse milk from the gilded skull of the Boy Too Bold By Half...

The Plains of the Jogos Nhai, TWOIAF

[Alaynsa Starne]

It's not Machiavellian to end a war on a battlefield with the use of projectile weapons against an aggressive force.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

He was a titan of a man. A serious historical figure.

[Boarsbane]

He was a relentless bad ass

[The silver dragon]

Bittersteel caused a lot of unnecessary trouble and bloodshed. He talked Daemon Blackfyre into going on a rampage which resulted in housands slaughtered. And the effects of his actions are being felt even now, with fAegon's invasion of the Stormlands. And all this because of his own ambitions.

I can admire his loyalty but his reckless ambition cancels it out, and then there's also the fact that he seems to have been miserable company to boot.

daeron started the first blackfrye rebellion.

not bitter steel.

[Gibzit]

He caused four wars and prevented the Blackfyres from ever returning to being Targs because he go it into their heads that the Targs are evil and that they should be enemies forever.

Conclusion: Asshole

[IdoTheChoombi]

It's not Machiavellian to end a war on a battlefield with the use of projectile weapons against an aggressive force.

True, but luring a claimant into the city under false pretense he will be allowed to peacefully try and press his claim, and then promptly imprison and kill him as soon as he enters, certainly is.(i'm refering to the Aenys Blackfyre incident).

[Dorian Martell]

He was a total failure, his only partial success was forming the golden company and while they were skilled warriors they failed to make it home. Bloodraven on the other hand was the paragon of success, sacrificing an eye to keep the bastard usurpers off the iron throne

[Knight Of Winter]

Bittersteel caused a lot of unnecessary trouble and bloodshed. He talked Daemon Blackfyre into going on a rampage which resulted in housands slaughtered. And the effects of his actions are being felt even now, with fAegon's invasion of the Stormlands. And all this because of his own ambitions.

I can admire his loyalty but his reckless ambition cancels it out, and then there's also the fact that he seems to have been miserable company to boot.

This, in short. I dislike Bittersteel in every way possible.

[Ser Creighton]

Aegon's fate...The Lost Lord, Dance 24 The Plains of the Jogos Nhai, TWOIAF

Nice catch.

He was a total failure, his only partial success was forming the golden company and while they were skilled warriors they failed to make it home. Bloodraven on the other hand was the paragon of success, sacrificing an eye to keep the bastard usurpers off the iron throne

Yeah but he has his own catch phrase, though I think people tend to really just like the name Bittersteel. It's just a shroud of gold, a lie like Cersei' kids. All that is there is a bitter dead man who tried to steel the throne. It's intresting just how much gold is associated with treason in the books. Wonder why Martin is always pointing out Darrio's tooth? Jaime killed a king, Cersei helped kill a king, Tywin betrayed the king and probably Rhaegar and ordered the Death of the royal family, the Golden rose Tyrells killed a king, I mean the Lannisters are just loaded from top to bottom with betrayal and treasons, they fuck everyone over including themselves. Jaime betrayed Cersei when he let Tyrion out, he betrayed Tyrion with Tysha, though that was more of his fathers doing. Treason, betrayel and death.

[LmL]

It's not Machiavellian to end a war on a battlefield with the use of projectile weapons against an aggressive force.

yes, thank you. "Archery and treachery?" Yes, they sound alike, but... but.... Archery Butt.

You Ser just called Robin Hood a Machiavellian, to which I take offense on his behalf. William Tell, Foss the Archer, the guy from American Sniper - you've denigrated them all, Ser.

*chuckles*

[Aemond's Eye]

I was curious what people think of Aegor Rivers, whether they view him in a positive or negative light.

Personally, in the context of his world, he's one of the more interesting characters from the pre-ASOIAF canon. He's surly and asocial, sure, but he's also a great warrior. Sure he talked Daemon Blackyre into creating a conflict which tore through the Seven Kingdoms, but he alone stood by his half brother and his descendants to the very end. And it's not like his enemies were saints themselves. Bloodraven is every inch the Machiavellian, given how he defeated the Blackfyres through archery and treachery. Bittersteel spent his life creating the Golden Company and looking after Daemon's children so that they might claim the Iron Throne. I don't approve of Bittersteel ultimately, but I can admire his dedication and loyalty to what he believed in.

Bloodraven didn't deal with the first Rebellion in either a Machiavellian nor treacherous fashion. Archery isn't treacherous. Is it nice that he killed his nephews to lure Daemon into a position for the killing shot? No. But Daemon was the one committing treachery, not Brynden.

He had Aenys Blackfyre killed after assuring him safe passage - though I wouldn't be surprised if he carefully worded how far that safe passage was granted - but even at that he'd spent decades fighting the Blackfyres. It's understandable that he wasn't for letting Aenys talk or bribe his way to a throne that Brynden had bled to keep the Blackfyres from.

[LmL]

daeron started the first blackfrye rebellion.

not bitter steel.

you don't mean Daeron as in Daeron the Good started the war, do you? Hopefully not, because that's not a very smart opinion. Surely you meant Daemon. But even then, it seems you may be wrong, as it's pretty well implied Daemon Blackfyre was coaxed into this rebellion over time, and the real cause of the war was people's divided feelings about the Dornish. The lords who hated the Dornish saw Daemon Blackfyre as a tool. Their anti-Dornish racism was so intense they even overlooked the fact that Daemon was a product of incest.

I'm actually becoming really curious about Daemon Blackfyre - he seems like an empty suit. We never really learn anything about his personality. He seems to have been a tool of various high lords and Bittersteel (granted, Bittersteel has some legit gripes because of how Aegon V treated his mother and family). What was Daemon actually like? It took over a decade for the rebellion to crystallize, which makes me think Daemon wasn't power mad from the start. We know a lot more about his grandfather, Prince Daemon of TPATQ.

[Aemond's Eye]

you don't mean Daeron as in Daeron the Good started the war, do you? Hopefully not, because that's not a very smart opinion. Surely you meant Daemon. But even then, it seems you may be wrong, as it's pretty well implied Daemon Blackfyre was coaxed into this rebellion over time, and the real cause of the war was people's divided feelings about the Dornish. The lords who hated the Dornish saw Daemon Blackfyre as a tool. Their anti-Dornish racism was so intense they even overlooked the fact that Daemon was a product of incest.

I'm actually becoming really curious about Daemon Blackfyre - he seems like an empty suit. We never really learn anything about his personality. He seems to have been a tool of various high lords and Bittersteel (granted, Bittersteel has some legit gripes because of how Aegon V treated his mother and family). What was Daemon actually like? It took over a decade for the rebellion to crystallize, which makes me think Daemon wasn't power mad from the start. We know a lot more about his grandfather, Prince Daemon of TPATQ.

They do. Pretty sure TSD is of the opinion that Daeron was going to have Daemon arrested without good reason, which led to Daemon fleeing and taking up arms.

[HexMachina]

daeron started the first blackfrye rebellion.

not bitter steel.

Since you ignored this in the other thread, having someone arrested for a legitimate reason is not a cause for war. It's not as though he was sentenced to death. If Daemon was so innocent, he would have no need to flee, would he?

[LmL]

I suppose we shouldn't derail the thread, I'm sure there are plenty of "was the Blackfyre rebellion justified?" threads already. I do wonder about Daemon and his personality, motivations, etc. Seems like George has intentionally kept us in the dark, so people can project their own ideas on him - makes it more fun to debate the war I suppose.

Bloodraven is my favorite character, so I am biased, admittedly.