[BOOK SPOILERS] The Death of Ellaria Sand as we knew her

[JonCon's Red Beard]

this claim is pretty ridiculous, there are plenty strong women in this show that I dont consider evil or bitter. Deanerys isnt, Margeary isnt and Catelyn wasnt, Brienne is pretty violent but she's not evil or bitter. Some other female characters that might be considered evil arent bitter either (Melissandre, Yara, Olenna)

I'm on my way out so I'll be brief. Or I'll get late to work, don't care.

There was a time when this show was praised by its portrayal of strong women, which in fact was just an extension of how GRRM portrayed strong women. Definitely, he has the right balance between strength and vulnerability that this show has started to lose in the last seasons. They don't get women right.

Do you think Dany is good portrayed as strong? Dany has started to become more a political statement rather than a character. Dany, in books, has layers. She's a young woman (or girl, depend on anyone's take) who wants to do the right thing but realises that's a heavy load to carry and she often daydreams about giving up everything and live a simple life. But she keeps swimming at the end. None of this is portrayed in showDany: all of her lines are OBLIGATORY BADASS LINE, like she's hypnotised into be a liberator rather than a real person who understands what is to live as a slave. Look at the scene of Stalwart Rat and you'll see the difference: in books, she fights her tears not because he has been killed, but when she finds out he hired a prostitute to cuddle and sees his humanity. In the show, she couldn't be more robotic: someoneofmysidehasbeenkilledgivehimhonoursandkillthemurderers. There is also a lot of sorrow and grief about the fact she will never have children, or a family or someone to protect her. showDany barely cares.

But, somehow, we're meant to believe that this characterization of her is supposed to be a "strong woman". Someone who shouts epic badass onliners and is always right and strong and decided. Vulnerabilities in women don't exist, because if you're vulnerable, you're a victim of evil raping men: Meera, when the mutineers found them; Cersei, raped by her own lover (who in books is the one only character with a very strong opposition against anything related to it, because he's likely equally traumatised by what happened to Tysha and feels guilty and told a young man to treat a prostitute with kindness, like she's his wife); Sansa, during KL riot... Sansa is a whole case of her own. Now she has been transformed into Darth Sansa because EMPOWERING! she's, apparently, no longer in danger of being molested by Littlefinger, who she dominates for some reason... except that she's not actually in control and

she's on her way to the more sadistic characters of them all, Ramsay

Sansa, and her status is defined by how other characters see her and treat her sexually... that's appalling.

Strong women, otoh, are depicted as warrior figures, with weapons if needed, and with a bitter attitude: we have Brienne, stripped of all of her kindness and she's a killing machine who hates Pod now. Tyene is not a poison master like her father but she fights with daggers-like thingies: that's how she's dangerous: weapons, not her own brain. Ygritte, as soon as she lost Jon she became nuts and bitter and wanted to kill everyone because apparently, she's not longer interested on the welfare of her people, only KILL JUN SNAH BECAUSE I HATE HIM DONT LOVE HIM HATE HATE HATE HIM.

And if you believe Melisandre is a good portrayed character... well... it's like D&D believe that because Carice is quite an attractive woman and we all would like to see her naked all the time, it's ok. to have her naked all the time and portray her as an hypersexualised human being whose only purpose is to use sex to achieve ends and cares about young boys' sexuality. I mean... Gendry, Jon... what's next, Olly? :dunno:

Speaking of Sansa... Ellaria has also been given a make over, with a very modern look, to let us know she has "changed"... god have mercy on their souls...

(yes, that's me being brief).

[Chebyshov]

Do we know she sent it? But, yeah, as cool as that prop was, it was utterly nonsensical. It seems that this year, letters make no sense.

I mean I guess a Sand Snake could have? But even the [book] Sand Snakes would never be that dumb as to send a threat. Obara wanted to torch Oldtown, sure, but she didn't fucking send a raven to Cersei letting her now that.

[RoamingRonin]

LOL... She equalized herself with Ramsay and Joffrey... God, this was some lazy writing...

No, she didn't.

Ramsay and Joffrey were sadistic for the sake of being sadistic. Ellaria wants blood for her dead lover, the father of her children. It's incredibly harsh to place her next to Ramsay and Joffrey in terms of cruelty when her motive for wanting to harm Myrcella is a lot more understandable than Joffrey "I just want to kill a whore" Baratheon and Ramsay "The skin is the best part" Bolton.

People are being just a little too defensive over such an insignificant character. Her "vengeance is bad" speech might have been moving at the time she said it but it rings a little hollow in the grand scheme of GRRM's story.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

BTW, I can't remember if in the show Brienne was also in danger of being raped like in the books. If she was, then it fits that she was then a semi kind character who was understanding of Jaime so that he broke down and showed her his vulnerabilities. Now, she's a STRONG WOMAN WITH A MISSION: to kill as many men as she can and terrorise Pod, the sexual God :dunno:

[Lord Varys]

Does anyone get what the 'Dornish TV story' is going to be about?

if you check the whole Dornish cast it is really difficult to imagine how the book story can be remotely adapted. Book Dany is not going to marry the boy Trystane Martell, and Quentyn Martell is dead. Arianne Martell is the important Martell player in the books, and Prince Doran may actually soon die of a natural death from his goat in the books - he is rather weak in ADwD, and the news about Quentyn will deal him another devastating blow.

With only Trystane Martell being there but making out with Myrcella and not going to Meereen there is little chance that the Martells will be able to make an alliance with Dany. If Trystane is not going to turn out to be Aegon then Doran is obviously doing nothing in the show, and without Aegon the Dornish story of the books will have to change quite severely as it is quite obvious that Dorne will back Aegon and not Daenerys in the books.

Thus I'd say either there is something to the Trystane-Aegon theory or the whole Dornish plot of season 5 is going to turn out to be a huge waste of time just as the Craster's Keep plot of season 4 was.

[SeanF]

No, she didn't.

Ramsay and Joffrey were sadistic for the sake of being sadistic. Ellaria wants blood for her dead lover, the father of her children. It's incredibly harsh to place her next to Ramsay and Joffrey in terms of cruelty when her motive for wanting to harm Myrcella is a lot more understandable than Joffrey "I just want to kill a whore" Baratheon and Ramsay "The skin is the best part" Bolton.

People are being just a little too defensive over such an insignificant character. Her "vengeance is bad" speech might have been moving at the time she said it but it rings a little hollow in the grand scheme of GRRM's story.

Ellaria wishing to cut Ser Gregor Clegane into pieces would be reasonable. Ellaria wanting to cut a 12 year old girl into pieces is jumping the shark, IMHO.

[Chebyshov]

Ellaria wishing to cut Ser Gregor Clegane into pieces would be reasonable. Ellaria wanting to cut a 12 year old girl into pieces is jumping the shark, IMHO.

This. Especially since "one finger at a time" was Ramsay's whole game, wasn't it?

[PatrickStormborn]

No, she didn't.

Ramsay and Joffrey were sadistic for the sake of being sadistic. Ellaria wants blood for her dead lover, the father of her children. It's incredibly harsh to place her next to Ramsay and Joffrey in terms of cruelty when her motive for wanting to harm Myrcella is a lot more understandable than Joffrey "I just want to kill a whore" Baratheon and Ramsay "The skin is the best part" Bolton.

People are being just a little too defensive over such an insignificant character. Her "vengeance is bad" speech might have been moving at the time she said it but it rings a little hollow in the grand scheme of GRRM's story.

If you think her speech rings hollow then you're completely misunderstanding his story lmao. It's one of the most important messages portrayed in the series and it recurrs throughout the books - vengeance is futile and has consequences. That's the purpose of Oberyn's death, the Red Wedding, Sansa and Arya's reactions to the Purple Wedding, Dany's crucifixions of the Great Masters, etc.

Ellaria's desire to send Myrcella - an innocent child - back to Cersei "one finger at a time" really is up there with Ramsay and Joffrey.

[TrueOrFalse]

I'll never forget how much I admired her in the books when I read her speech on revenge. The changes they've made to her on the show are absolutely horrendous. They've made many terrible changes on the show but this is one of the worst. :(

[Mladen]

snip

Oh, JCRB, that was one hella of a post... Nicely said...

People are being just a little too defensive over such an insignificant character. Her "vengeance is bad" speech might have been moving at the time she said it but it rings a little hollow in the grand scheme of GRRM's story.

Meribald's speech was also insignificant, and yet it is perhaps the most beautiful thing in the series. Aemon's speech about right and wrong, testing a man is also insignificant but it goes straight to the core of the issues in ASOIAF. Arya is currently insignificant in the grand scheme of things. But that doesn't mean it is insignificant to the story GRRM is (and the one D&D should be) telling.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ellaria is such an insignificant character that GRRM chose her to have a speech about what he feels about revenge.

That's kinda the point, you know? Ellaria is a nobody. Just like Septon Meribald is a nobody. And they get it right. The powerful ones, the men with power, the ones who play the game and make the big decisions, don't get it and don't care. And people like Ellaria and Meribald can't do anything about it. Ellaria was definitely against Oberyn fighting the Mountain and she was right: he lost and now people want to kill on his name. Oberyn didn't listen to her and Doran won't listen to her either. That's the tragedy of being a woman and a mother in Westeros. Catelyn's arc had a lot of elements like this as well.

[dsug]

I have a feeling Ellaria will calm down in a later. She's a little hot headed right now, but I have a creeping suspicion that she'll have a change of heart, or at least stop targeting Myrcella.

Perhaps she does go onto to attempt to hurt her, but her motherly instincts kick in, and she decides to back off. Who knows?

[Mingolla]

Does anyone get what the 'Dornish TV story' is going to be about?

if you check the whole Dornish cast it is really difficult to imagine how the book story can be remotely adapted. Book Dany is not going to marry the boy Trystane Martell, and Quentyn Martell is dead. Arianne Martell is the important Martell player in the books, and Prince Doran may actually soon die of a natural death from his goat in the books - he is rather weak in ADwD, and the news about Quentyn will deal him another devastating blow.

With only Trystane Martell being there but making out with Myrcella and not going to Meereen there is little chance that the Martells will be able to make an alliance with Dany. If Trystane is not going to turn out to be Aegon then Doran is obviously doing nothing in the show, and without Aegon the Dornish story of the books will have to change quite severely as it is quite obvious that Dorne will back Aegon and not Daenerys in the books.

Thus I'd say either there is something to the Trystane-Aegon theory or the whole Dornish plot of season 5 is going to turn out to be a huge waste of time just as the Craster's Keep plot of season 4 was.

Why shouldnt be Doran´s plan to marry Trystane to Dany? He is 18 on the show, Dany is only one or two years older. It fit nicely into Doran´s Fire and Blood speech. Trystane-Aegon doesnt not fit at all. How would be his speech called? Snake and Lioness?

Whatever Dany will marry him or not, its is a reasonable plan. Probably better then sending Quentin to Essos for the same reason. And than they are Sand Snakes who have their revenge story in KL to play. Also its not sure that Dorne will back Aegon and not Dany in the books, it is just a theory nothing more.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

No. This wasn't GRRM. His Ellaria and this travesty can't be even put in the same sentence. This was D&D and their continuation of oversimplifying female characters.

Several male characters have been simplified as well. This isn't a thing just about women.

Myrcella isn't a hostage from a rebel house. She's the princess of the Seven Kingdoms, and betrothed to Tyrstane Martell, the heir to Dorne.

No, Myrcella is a hostage from a rival house that has wronged the Martells. She's not in a good position which is why Cersei hit the roof when it happened in season 2 and is still hitting the roof. There is no mistaking that she is a hostage. That's why Jaime's going to get her.

It's simple. Ellaria is passive, maybe even pacifistic. Arianne is vengeful and hotheaded. The conflict with Doran doesn't work with a passive Ellaria. So DnD had to make a choice here. Either cast Arianne and confuse viewers with even more names , wasting a perfectly fine Indira Varma in the process, OR turn Ellaria into an Arianne with Oberyn's death as a catalyst.

This. I know many are upset at the new direction for Ellaria especially since Martin does use her to share his views on the futility of war and vengeance. But there needs to be a foil to Doran and it was either cast Arianne or use Ellaria. Sadly, both Ellaria and Varma suffer for it but it makes sense from a cast size/ show scope standpoint. I have a feeling Doran will give Ellaria's famous speech. Well, I hope he does as it needs to be told given we don't have the physical representation of it in LSH.

[Chebyshov]

For the love of god, Arianne is neither vengeful nor hotheaded. She sat on the information about getting disinherited for nearly a decade and only acted when her hand was forced by:

• Oberyn's death and an incensed Dorne, temporarily making something like the Queenmaker plot to be popular
  
• Reports from the Planky Town that Quentyn was sneaking into Essos with a suspicious party, indicating to Arianne that Doran was getting read to make his move against her
  
• The Snakes getting imprisoned, showing that Doran is willing to act against his own family, even ones popular in Dorne
  
• Doran telling Arys that he was moving Myrcella to the Water Gardens soon, meaning Arianne's only leverage was about to go away
  

She did practically everything she could not to act, and it was never just about revenge for her uncle. It was never even mostly about that. And given the cultural implications of Doran passing over her in favor of Quentyn, it was a reasonable cause. Did she make false assumptions? Yes. Did she have well thought-out and logical reasons for making those assumptions? Yes.

Ellaria in the show is a 4th Sand Snake at best, yet even they didn't think to harm Doran's ward.

[Mingolla]

This. I know many are upset at the new direction for Ellaria especially since Martin does use her to share his views on the futility of war and vengeance. But there needs to be a foil to Doran and it was either cast Arianne or use Ellaria. Sadly, both Ellaria and Varma suffer for it but it makes sense from a cast size/ show scope standpoint. I have a feeling Doran will give Ellaria's famous speech. Well, I hope he does as it needs to be told given we don't have the physical representation of it in LSH.

They have cast three Sand Snakes who are perfect for this role. It was like that in the books, it fit their characters and their characterization suffer because Ellaria usurped their role and their dialogue. This effectively reduced three independent characters into Ellaria´s henchmen and whole storyline of Doran emotional struggle with his young relatives is missing (so far). It can improve during second part of the season, but for me this role given to Ellaria is why the introduction of Dorne sucks. And i am Dorne fan and "show apologist" compared to others on this site, so if this is my reaction, it isnt good sign.

Also Ellaria should not talk to Doran like that. It was very clear that even Arianne and Sand Snakes in the books are crossing line with their insults, but as Doran´s relatives they got a pass. Its not only anachronism this season. Atleast three time in two episodes they used the word "country", which have no place in the feudal society.

[SeanF]

Several male characters have been simplified as well. This isn't a thing just about women.

No, Myrcella is a hostage from a rival house that has wronged the Martells. She's not in a good position which is why Cersei hit the roof when it happened in season 2 and is still hitting the roof. There is no mistaking that she is a hostage. That's why Jaime's going to get her.

This. I know many are upset at the new direction for Ellaria especially since Martin does use her to share his views on the futility of war and vengeance. But there needs to be a foil to Doran and it was either cast Arianne or use Ellaria. Sadly, both Ellaria and Varma suffer for it but it makes sense from a cast size/ show scope standpoint. I have a feeling Doran will give Ellaria's famous speech. Well, I hope he does as it needs to be told given we don't have the physical representation of it in LSH.

There's nothing wrong with simplifying the plot, and reworking Ellaria's character to include aspects of Arianne. But, Arianne is not a child-murderer. Arianne is ambitious, self-centred, and reckless, but she's also quite compassionate, and shares Ellaria's dislike for violence (unlike the three oldest Sand Snakes). Neither Ellaria, nor Arianne, would dream of cutting Myrcella into pieces. Arianne is quite prepared to manipulate Myrcella, but would never harm her. I think Arianne is guilty of a great deal of wishful thinking, but she's not a cruel person.

[larastone]

correct me if i'm wrong but don't the sand snakes imply that they want to do some fucked up shit to myrcella in the books??

if yes, then it seems like ellaria's taken that aspect of them but only that its been made more explicit because its TV duh so they have to add on the dramaaaaaa

either way, i think its best that we just see ellaria as an original D&D character from now on

[Julia Martell]

Please guys, don’t use poor Arianne to in any way justify what they’re doing to even poorer Ellaria here.

The Sand Snakes are there so that the reader and the more important characters (Doran and Arianne) can reject their views and tell them to shut up. They’re taking something that’s suppose to be a framing device, something the reader can directly contrast to Arianne and Doran, and playing it straight making it the focus. The fact that Arianne is nothing like a Sand Snake and Doran thinks she is, is the whole damn point. Like literally, that is the point, that Doran and Arianne completely misunderstand each others motivations.

Here, the motivations are obvious, “rara vengeance!”, because they’ve removed all the complications and moral ambiguity from the story so there’s no chance for any other motivations.

And yeah, Doran still probably has a secret plan, but the fact that he has a secret plan isn’t nearly as interesting as the reasons why that plan went south. And again, those motivations are impossible in this situation because: yeah, there’s no Arianne.

[Chebyshov]

correct me if i'm wrong but don't the sand snakes imply that they want to do some fucked up shit to myrcella in the books??

Nope. Tyene wants to do the Queenmaker and have the Dornish hone their spears and wait. Nym wants to kill Tywin (doesn't know he's dead yet), Jaime, Cersei, and Tommen the "boy king." Obara wants to torch Oldtown.