[BOOK SPOILERS] The Death of Ellaria Sand as we knew her

[C.T. Phipps]

I can't believe this is what replaced the dialogue of hilarious insults the Sand Snakes and Arianne threw at Doran.

Doran's character seems a bit too assertive and wise for a first appearance. In the books, he was represented as being weak, weary, unable to defend himself from the Sand Snake Inquisition's verbal assaults and lacking any plans whatsoever; which made the payoff of his surprising Fire and Blood speech very gratifying, and all the more enjoyable.

Eh, I think TV audience first impressions are important.

Jaime and Cersei being shown as multilayered was a good one.

So is Doran not being helpless.

[Turinsbane]

Words are wind. She wants to strike out against the Lannisters and this is just an example.

However, even Ned Stark took a hostage in Theon Greyjoy.

The point of taking a hostage is killing them if their people act up.

Myrcella isn't a hostage from a rebel house. She's the princess of the Seven Kingdoms, and betrothed to Tyrstane Martell, the heir to Dorne. Myrcella may be at the mercy of her hosts, but she is not Theon Greyjoy, because Balon Greyjoy is not Cersei Lannister. If Ned Stark had beheaded Theon, he wouldn't have had Six Kingdoms to deal with, and though Dorne is formidable, it is not invincible (all the mountains and deserts are worth little when compared to Moat Cailin) Ellaria's rant isn't terrible because it's hotheaded, but because it's idiotic, which would be forgivable if it wasn't so cruel.

The point is that the character is inconsistent with what the show itself has already established. Like, Ellaria went from smart brave kind woman to I WANT TO KILL EVERYONE DESPITE THAT WOULD ENDANGER MY OWN CHILDREN.

Do they think this is an accurate portray of a strong woman? A psychopath?

D&D's portrayal of woman is becoming cartoonish.

Has GoT had any women writers? I know it's not an excuse (especially since GRRM seems capable of writing varied and dynamic and intersting female characters) but maybe it'd explain why so many of the major female characters act the way they do.

[Cashless Society]

^ Vanessa Taylor wrote 2 episodes in Season 2 and 1 in season 3.

[BlueDragon]

You have heard of PTSD? How do you think you would be thinking in the immediate aftermath of witnessing the father of your children being squished like a ripe tomato?

Give everyone a break: the show needed to find a way to convey the deep anger simmering in Dorne.

I am finding the criticisms of the show trivial and juvenile.

I didn't like last week's episode but found this week's to be far better than average.

Actors can deliver bad performances or bad lines, but she had the tone right on: spitting mad and heartbroken.

[Raksha 2014]

You have heard of PTSD? How do you think you would be thinking in the immediate aftermath of witnessing the father of your children being squished like a ripe tomato?

Give everyone a break: the show needed to find a way to convey the deep anger simmering in Dorne.

I am finding the criticisms of the show trivial and juvenile.

I didn't like last week's episode but found this week's to be far better than average.

Actors can deliver bad performances or bad lines, but she had the tone right on: spitting mad and heartbroken.

PTSD is not an excuse to plan the torture of a young girl who had nothing to do with the death of the father of your children (who volunteered to face the guy who killed him, as a means of exacting his own revenge).

I would find Ellaria's viciousness far more palatable if it came from one of the Sand Snakes. This is not George Martin's character Ellaria Sand talking. It's another character with her name.

[Red Tiger]

Idem for Cersei. Whether you believe she loves her children or not, she kept on despite she lost Jaime for almost one year, because they needed her.

No, she didn't, she basically ignored Tommen and Myrcella, until Joff died and Myrcella was shipped off, respectively.

You have heard of PTSD? How do you think you would be thinking in the immediate aftermath of witnessing the father of your children being squished like a ripe tomato?

I would want the head of Cersei, not her daughter who never did me any harm.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jesus Christ, for the 829792783923th time, this is not about a change or not. This is about how Ellaria embodies something GRRM wants to portray and HBO as arbitrarily decided to make her portray the completely opposite.

Is the same case as Cersei being portrayed as a helpless victim when she's in fact a victim of his own stupidity.

We get it. They couldn't afford to cast Arianne, and they gave her arc and actions to Ellaria. But guess what? Arianne isn't a murderer nor wanted to crown Myrcella because REVENGE!. She had real motivations to do it and those came from a conflict between her and her father, a conflict whose origins were based on Doran being extra private about something they all wanted the same, but people had no idea he was working to achieve.

The Dornish plot is a complicated outline of complex characterization. We have the Sand Snakes who want revenge without minding the consequences, we have Doran who has revenge as well, but he doesn't want to drag Dorne into it without being sure he will win and he's conflicted about it, and we have Ellaria telling them revenge never ends well. Those are real people with real personalities and real ideologies.

I could understand if Ellaria had been given Arianne's characterization but she has not. She has been turned into HBO's image of a strong woman, a neurotic mess with a likeness for violence. Because somehow, strong women want to go and hurt others, that's the mark of their strength and independence. "Kill kill kill, I'm a strong woman! kill kill kill".

[The Last Left Fighting]

My main issues are:

1. Oberyn's "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne" stance seemingly going against everything these ladies want to do now. But whatever, they're grieving -deep sigh-

2. With Arianne and others being cut out, will Dorne's only importance be centered around the Myrcella-centered revenge plot? Will anything of Fire and Blood from the books remain, or once Team SS/Ellaria either succeed or fail in their plan, will Dorne's role be done? If so, that's just... underwhelming.

[rayarts]

Arianne did not want to mutilate Myrcella, she wanted to put her on the Iron Throne! This is a horrible, horrible, story change. The worse one of any so far.

Yeah, this is what bugged me most so far. I really liked the Sandsnakes in the book and Dorne in general BECAUSE they were different than the power hungry ruthless lot in Westeros/Kingslanding. It was always about revenge, but "fair" revenge.

Now they are just sullied. Hate it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2. With Arianne and others being cut out, will Dorne's only importance be centered around the Myrcella-centered revenge plot? Will anything of Fire and Blood from the books remain, or once Team SS/Ellaria either succeed or fail in their plan, will Dorne's role be done? If so, that's just... underwhelming.

I suppose they could say Doran wanted to reach Dany now he has likely heard she has dragons. But that would mean he indeed did nothing for the last 15 years, which would make little sense because there is no way Oberyn would also stay and do nothing at all, and be content with Doran doing nothing. Also, the Snakes then would be right on be mad at him as Oberyn died because he FINALLY tried to avenge Elia.

And if his original plan was to marry Trystane to Dany, why accept Myrcella? To keep her as a hostage? That's something Doran would never do, although maybe in this universe he's as ruthless as Ellaria and once Dany has been brought to Dorne, he's going to tell Myrcella "sorry, we never wanted you to marry my son" and locked her up in the basement because why not?

All of this works because Doran has three kids with three different purposes: Arianne was marrying Viserys, Quentyn was his heir and Trystane would marry Myrcella, a way to assure the Lannisters some neutrality. But with Trystane alone, what's happening if he marries Dany? Who is going to be the heir of Dorne? A similar problem to the Heir Loras mess.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Jesus Christ, for the 829792783923th time, this is not about a change or not. This is about how Ellaria embodies something GRRM wants to portray and HBO as arbitrarily decided to make her portray the completely opposite.

Is the same case as Cersei being portrayed as a helpless victim when she's in fact a victim of his own stupidity.

We get it. They couldn't afford to cast Arianne, and they gave her arc and actions to Ellaria. But guess what? Arianne isn't a murderer nor wanted to crown Myrcella because REVENGE!. She had real motivations to do it and those came from a conflict between her and her father, a conflict whose origins were based on Doran being extra private about something they all wanted the same, but people had no idea he was working to achieve.

The Dornish plot is a complicated outline of complex characterization. We have the Sand Snakes who want revenge without minding the consequences, we have Doran who has revenge as well, but he doesn't want to drag Dorne into it without being sure he will win and he's conflicted about it, and we have Ellaria telling them revenge never ends well. Those are real people with real personalities and real ideologies.

I could understand if Ellaria had been given Arianne's characterization but she has not. She has been turned into HBO's image of a strong woman, a neurotic mess with a likeness for violence. Because somehow, strong women want to go and hurt others, that's the mark of their strength and independence. "Kill kill kill, I'm a strong woman! kill kill kill".

Again, Ellaria is not Arianne, Ellaria is Dark Star.

[SeanF]

Ellaria hasn't taken Arianne's place. Arianne is disgusted by Darkstar's suggestion that they kill Myrcella to provoke a war. Arianne wants revenge for the wrongs done to her family, but she does not consider that infants are legitimate targets for revenge.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ellaria is not Arianne. She has been given some parts of Arianne, some parts of Darkstar and even some parts of Stoneheart. She's a sexy Frankenstein.

It's like they didn't learn anything from Loras being Willas, Garland and his own book counterpart at the same time. It creates more loopholes than anything.

[The Taxman]

They should gave given Trystane's role as Darkstar or something... they really fvcked up on this one.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I really think Trystane is going to be more Arianne than anyone else, he will be the one who's eager to crown Myrcella, but it will be because he's "in love" with her. Ellaria will double cross him and try to kill Myrcella when Hotah shows up.

[The Last Left Fighting]

I suppose they could say Doran wanted to reach Dany now he has likely heard she has dragons. But that would mean he indeed did nothing for the last 15 years, which would make little sense because there is no way Oberyn would also stay and do nothing at all, and be content with Doran doing nothing. Also, the Snakes then would be right on be mad at him as Oberyn died because he FINALLY tried to avenge Elia.

And if his original plan was to marry Trystane to Dany, why accept Myrcella? To keep her as a hostage? That's something Doran would never do, although maybe in this universe he's as ruthless as Ellaria and once Dany has been brought to Dorne, he's going to tell Myrcella "sorry, we never wanted you to marry my son" and locked her up in the basement because why not?

All of this works because Doran has three kids with three different purposes: Arianne was marrying Viserys, Quentyn was his heir and Trystane would marry Myrcella, a way to assure the Lannisters some neutrality. But with Trystane alone, what's happening if he marries Dany? Who is going to be the heir of Dorne? A similar problem to the Heir Loras mess.

Streamlining - not always for the better.

Assuming in show he had some plan of marrying Dany-Trystane, Myrcella could be explained as a Plan B in case over the many years, Dany died or something else prevented the plan from working? Better to have an egg in either basket (Targs coming back into power or being well aligned with the Baratheon/Lannister power if they keep the throne by marrying his heir to their princess).

I really think Trystane is going to be more Arianne than anyone else, he will be the one who's eager to crown Myrcella, but it will be because he's "in love" with her. Ellaria will double cross him and try to kill Myrcella when Hotah shows up.

I could buy this. And then he tries to defend Myrcella, and gets cut up like Oakheart/dies futilely like Quentyn? Then the shit would really hit the fan, lol.

[SeanF]

Yeah, this is what bugged me most so far. I really liked the Sandsnakes in the book and Dorne in general BECAUSE they were different than the power hungry ruthless lot in Westeros/Kingslanding. It was always about revenge, but "fair" revenge.

Now they are just sullied. Hate it.

The Sand Snakes in the books are pretty nasty, IMHO (Obara, Tyene, and Nymeria, at any rate). All their talk is of violence and killing, and they want to kill Tommen, who has done them no wrong.

Arianne falls between the two extremes of Ellaria, arguing for an end to violence, and the Sand Snakes, who lust for revenge.

[Denam_Pavel]

The Sand Snakes in the books are pretty nasty, IMHO (Obara, Tyene, and Nymeria, at any rate). All their talk is of violence and killing, and they want to kill Tommen, who has done them no wrong.

Arianne falls between the two extremes of Ellaria, arguing for an end to violence, and the Sand Snakes, who lust for revenge.

Tommen was King, at the time, and the last member of the Baratheon dynasty the Lannisters and Tyrells had. He goes, it all goes. At least some strategic advantage is actually gained by eliminating him. And the Sand Snakes weren't so braindead that they sent a letter to Cersei, stating their intent.

[C.T. Phipps]

Myrcella isn't a hostage from a rebel house. She's the princess of the Seven Kingdoms, and betrothed to Tyrstane Martell, the heir to Dorne. Myrcella may be at the mercy of her hosts, but she is not Theon Greyjoy, because Balon Greyjoy is not Cersei Lannister. If Ned Stark had beheaded Theon, he wouldn't have had Six Kingdoms to deal with, and though Dorne is formidable, it is not invincible (all the mountains and deserts are worth little when compared to Moat Cailin) Ellaria's rant isn't terrible because it's hotheaded, but because it's idiotic, which would be forgivable if it wasn't so cruel.

Cersei Lannister is not Queen of the Seven Kingdoms either. She's Queen of King's Landing and the Tyrell lands. Dorne resisted the Targaryens when they were at their strongest and Cersei's forces are exhausted.

Is it wrong to kill thousands to avenge one?

Ask Robb Stark.

And yes, it's HORRIFIC that she would want to kill an innocent to avenge her boyfriend.

You know what's also horrific?

Serfdom.

This is not 21st Century America or Europe.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I really never got the idea that ellaria was loved. but that's besides the point. The scene itself was fine since i'm geussing she's taking over Arriane. but you are right it is the total opposite of what she wanted in the books.

Arianne did not want to mutilate Myrcella, she wanted to put her on the Iron Throne! This is a horrible, horrible, story change. The worse one of any so far.

Yeah I thought the fingers in the post part was a bit OTT even if I could understand the revenge change

Thing is after seeing the Doran/Ellaria scene I came to understand that scene as a foil to the Arya/Hound scene regarding the farmer

Basically it seems they are using Ellaria's quest for vengeance as a foil for Arya's quest for vengeance and revenge etc, both are tuning into the themes or unrestrained brutality (Hound against farmer and Ellaria against Myrcella) and the restraint of civility (Arya "biggest shit" speech and Doran speech). Clue is in the "how many brothers do you have to kill" and "how many Starks do they have to be-head"

Ironically they are turning show Ellaria into exactly what book Ellaria is preaching against, eg revenge has a tendency to spiral, eg Ellaria is now consumed with a cruel thirst for revenge as Oberyn was, which means the Sand Snakes are too which can mean more death and sadness etc