Where are these awesome sand snakes in the books?

[ummester]

I like to think, that with the Sandsnakes, the show is taking the piss out of the books.

I can see no logical or artistic reason for their inclusion in either, so best I can think of is GRRM was having some kind of middle eastern hottie fantasy when he wrote them (which he'd already done better with Arianne anyway) and D&D are taking the piss out of GRRM.

Given the show is utilizing Elaria as the initially vengeful one, like Arianne, it would have been better for the show to cut the Sandsnakes down to just a single character that Elaria convinces to fight for her. They could have had more drama that way, with a single Sandsnake, from Oberyn's first lover, that has never seen quite eye to eye with Elaria and set aside their differences due to Obyren's death.

I think this is going to resolve in the same place - Sandsnakes locked up and Elaria relaising that Doran was always more correct than her vengeance - that princess peach lannister and her slightly ethnic looking pretty boy lover are the best hope for Dorne's future - but it all seems rather B grade because none of them can act.

[hallam]

Pretty sure that no one would describe the show Sandsnakes as 'prominent' characters when we've seen all of 1.5 minutes of them on the show.

My feeling exactly. They haven't done anything in the books yet but it looks like they will do something at some point. So people should be willing to wait a season before expecting to do anything.

People really should wait to see how things pan out before making categorical assertions.

BTW, somehow this got double posted into two different forums.

[DemiNymph]

My feeling exactly. They haven't done anything in the books yet but it looks like they will do something at some point. So people should be willing to wait a season before expecting to do anything.

People really should wait to see how things pan out before making categorical assertions.

BTW, somehow this got double posted into two different forums.

HBO is promoting the Sandsnakes like crazy. It's not that much about the amount of screentime that they have. They are prominent because the producers thought they are good enough to be a focal point for promotion of this season. Which scares me as it tells us a lot about their judgement. Even with the thousands of negative comments they still want to promote them. People are not buying it. Go see their facebook. There's really about 2000 comments in the latest post, most if not all people saying the same thing as here.

And it's not about whether they do anything in the storyline. They did have 2 significant appearances already. They suck not because of the plot. They suck because of their styling, their accent, their acting, their dialogue, their motivations, their 1-dimensional flat characters, their lousy super lame fight. They suck in their own right. Don't tell us to wait, that's ridiculous. It's plenty enough for us to judge.

[Primalsplit]

Where are they in the books? In custody, by the order of Doran before they can fuck shit up.

Where are they in the show? Running around, giving horrible speeches with horrible accents and can't even fucking shit up.

[Mithras]

There is a theory that on the show "Trystane" isn't really Doran's son, but Aegon, Elia and Rhaegar's son. I don't know what this is based on, but if that is the case, it would give Doran the opportunity to give that speech.

I find this theory extremely unlikely.

[PatrickStormborn]

I like to think, that with the Sandsnakes, the show is taking the piss out of the books.

I can see no logical or artistic reason for their inclusion in either, so best I can think of is GRRM was having some kind of middle eastern hottie fantasy when he wrote them (which he'd already done better with Arianne anyway) and D&D are taking the piss out of GRRM.

Given the show is utilizing Elaria as the initially vengeful one, like Arianne, it would have been better for the show to cut the Sandsnakes down to just a single character that Elaria convinces to fight for her. They could have had more drama that way, with a single Sandsnake, from Oberyn's first lover, that has never seen quite eye to eye with Elaria and set aside their differences due to Obyren's death.

I think this is going to resolve in the same place - Sandsnakes locked up and Elaria relaising that Doran was always more correct than her vengeance - that princess peach lannister and her slightly ethnic looking pretty boy lover are the best hope for Dorne's future - but it all seems rather B grade because none of them can act.

I just... Did you even pay attention to anything that happened in the books?

Calling Arianne "vengeful" is a serious mischaracterisation, for a start. Yeah, she's pissed off about Oberyn's death, but her Queenmaker plot isn't about that. It's about her fears that Quentyn is about to invade Dorne with the Golden Company and usurp her birthright. Her plan is to crown Myrcella, only so that it gives her father's bannermen the war they want, allowing her to mobilise Dorne - in which case Quentyn will not find it easy to usurp her, should he land with the Golden Company.

The Sand Snakes, of course, are more vengeful. Obara wants to sack Oldtown; Nym wants to kill Tywin, Jaime, Cersei and Tommen, in retribution for Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon and Oberyn; Tyene is the one who wants to crown Myrcella. But none of them want to harm Myrcella, because none of them are actually evil and want to harm a ward. If Ellaria is based on anyone in Dorne from the books, it's Dark Star. Which, you know, is really bizarre, because we're expected to believe that Oberyn was in love with this woman, and she's important enough that Doran won't imprison her after she directly threatens pretty much everyone. It's moronic to believe that she has this kind of power.

You argue that the Sand Snakes should have been merged into one character, and I've seen a lot of others echoing this sentiment. But, again, it defies the purpose - and the appeal - of the Sand Snakes. D&D sold them as a trio, and that should indicate why they were included and Arianne wasn't. If having one fleshed out character was the priority, they would have kept Arianne. And before anyone says they kept the Sand Snakes because they're gonna be "so important" in TWoW - please, actually think about what you're writing. Darkstar has been cut in the show, so Obara's hunt is gone too; meanwhile, Tyene's mother is not a septa in the show (in fact, it's Ellaria), so she won't be infiltrating the Faith Militant/Sparrows. And, again, their purpose is that they're a team(*), in which case it makes no sense to imagine that they'll be sent on different missions in the show. The logical conclusion is that they probably have a role going forward into season 6, but that it will have little resemblance to their book roles.

So why not cut the Sand Snakes and include Arianne? Obviously this choice is related to cutting Young Griff, but I don't think that means Arianne had to be cut. Instead, why not have her absorb whatever role the Sand Snakes will play?

As for why they were included in the books... I'm not sure what's difficult to understand? They're part of the Martell family and they want vengeance for Oberyn. And they're pretty extreme about it, to the extent that Doran has to have them imprisoned. This serves the purpose of driving a further wedge between Doran and Arianne (who legitimately fears for the safety and lives of her cousins). But their desire for vengeance is important as well, as they represent the extremism that our protagonists - Arianne and Doran - are torn between denying and embracing. They are, ultimately, a source of conflict for the protagonists - which is the whole purpose of side characters... Not to mention their importance in Quentyn's failed dragon-taming attempt; part of his reasoning is that, if he fails, he will continue to be mocked by the Sand Snakes. Obviously it wasn't crucial in his motivations, but it adds a bit more complexity and tragedy to the situation.

Ultimately, I don't think including the Sand Snakes was a smart choice. Nor do I think making Ellaria vengeful was a smart choice. And I don't even want to talk about Trystane/Myrcella and Jaime's rescue mission because they're not worth my time. But that isn't to say that the Sand Snakes had no potential - they could have been a great addition to the story in Dorne, but for that they needed to include the heart of Dorne: Arianne. Just look at the scene from the latest episode - we're 60% done with this season and the Martells look like they barely know each other. What do the Sand Snakes think of each other? What do they think of Trystane? What does Doran think of them? What about Doran and Trystane? Of course these are questions that could be answered later... But some kind of dynamic between characters is necessary when we're introduced to a new location. The only dynamics I've witnessed so far are Ellaria/Tyene, Trystane/Myrcella and Doran/Areo. The Sand Snakes themselves seem like hired help who don't really know each other, and it certainly doesn't appear like they're familar with Areo Hotah, considering Obara had to identify herself to him...

Dorne doesn't feel like a real place with real people who actually interact. So far in the show it's featured exposition, poor choreography and rushed plot points. If they didn't have the screentime to sell it properly, it should have been cut. But D&D apparently "liked" Dorne and wanted to include it...

(*) Obviously this isn't quite the same in the books, because the four eldest Sand Snakes are completely different. But in the promotional material for the show, they were deliberately selling the Sand Snakes as a trio of sister warriors.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I just... Did you even pay attention to anything that happened in the books?

Calling Arianne "vengeful" is a serious mischaracterisation, for a start. Yeah, she's pissed off about Oberyn's death, but her Queenmaker plot isn't about that. It's about her fears that Quentyn is about to invade Dorne with the Golden Company and usurp her birthright. Her plan is to crown Myrcella, only so that it gives her father's bannermen the war they want, allowing her to mobilise Dorne - in which case Quentyn will not find it easy to usurp her, should he land with the Golden Company.

The Sand Snakes, of course, are more vengeful. Obara wants to sack Oldtown; Nym wants to kill Tywin, Jaime, Cersei and Tommen, in retribution for Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon and Oberyn; Tyene is the one who wants to crown Myrcella. But none of them want to harm Myrcella, because none of them are actually evil and want to harm a ward. If Ellaria is based on anyone in Dorne from the books, it's Dark Star. Which, you know, is really bizarre, because we're expected to believe that Oberyn was in love with this woman, and she's important enough that Doran won't imprison her after she directly threatens pretty much everyone. It's moronic to believe that she has this kind of power.

You argue that the Sand Snakes should have been merged into one character, and I've seen a lot of others echoing this sentiment. But, again, it defies the purpose - and the appeal - of the Sand Snakes. D&D sold them as a trio, and that should indicate why they were included and Arianne wasn't. If having one fleshed out character was the priority, they would have kept Arianne. And before anyone says they kept the Sand Snakes because they're gonna be "so important" in TWoW - please, actually think about what you're writing. Darkstar has been cut in the show, so Obara's hunt is gone too; meanwhile, Tyene's mother is not a septa in the show (in fact, it's Ellaria), so she won't be infiltrating the Faith Militant/Sparrows. And, again, their purpose is that they're a team(*), in which case it makes no sense to imagine that they'll be sent on different missions in the show. The logical conclusion is that they probably have a role going forward into season 6, but that it will have little resemblance to their book roles.

So why not cut the Sand Snakes and include Arianne? Obviously this choice is related to cutting Young Griff, but I don't think that means Arianne had to be cut. Instead, why not have her absorb whatever role the Sand Snakes will play?

As for why they were included in the books... I'm not sure what's difficult to understand? They're part of the Martell family and they want vengeance for Oberyn. And they're pretty extreme about it, to the extent that Doran has to have them imprisoned. This serves the purpose of driving a further wedge between Doran and Arianne (who legitimately fears for the safety and lives of her cousins). But their desire for vengeance is important as well, as they represent the extremism that our protagonists - Arianne and Doran - are torn between denying and embracing. They are, ultimately, a source of conflict for the protagonists - which is the whole purpose of side characters... Not to mention their importance in Quentyn's failed dragon-taming attempt; part of his reasoning is that, if he fails, he will continue to be mocked by the Sand Snakes. Obviously it wasn't crucial in his motivations, but it adds a bit more complexity and tragedy to the situation.

Ultimately, I don't think including the Sand Snakes was a smart choice. Nor do I think making Ellaria vengeful was a smart choice. And I don't even want to talk about Trystane/Myrcella and Jaime's rescue mission because they're not worth my time. But that isn't to say that the Sand Snakes had no potential - they could have been a great addition to the story in Dorne, but for that they needed to include the heart of Dorne: Arianne. Just look at the scene from the latest episode - we're 60% done with this season and the Martells look like they barely know each other. What do the Sand Snakes think of each other? What do they think of Trystane? What does Doran think of them? What about Doran and Trystane? Of course these are questions that could be answered later... But some kind of dynamic between characters is necessary when we're introduced to a new location. The only dynamics I've witnessed so far are Ellaria/Tyene, Trystane/Myrcella and Doran/Areo. The Sand Snakes themselves seem like hired help who don't really know each other, and it certainly doesn't appear like they're familar with Areo Hotah, considering Obara had to identify herself to him...

Dorne doesn't feel like a real place with real people who actually interact. So far in the show it's featured exposition, poor choreography and rushed plot points. If they didn't have the screentime to sell it properly, it should have been cut. But D&D apparently "liked" Dorne and wanted to include it...

(*) Obviously this isn't quite the same in the books, because the four eldest Sand Snakes are completely different. But in the promotional material for the show, they were deliberately selling the Sand Snakes as a trio of sister warriors.

:agree:

[Young Nan]

The show snakes basically seem to me like they rolled all of the book sand snakes into one character, and then re-cast that same character three times. So yeah, they're pretty lame.

In all fairness I agree that they're stupid in the books too. They were all different one-dimensional versions of different "badass" tropes. At least they had individual variations besides spear, whip, and daggers though.

[ummester]

I just... Did you even pay attention to anything that happened in the books?

Calling Arianne "vengeful" is a serious mischaracterisation, for a start. Yeah, she's pissed off about Oberyn's death, but her Queenmaker plot isn't about that. It's about her fears that Quentyn is about to invade Dorne with the Golden Company and usurp her birthright. Her plan is to crown Myrcella, only so that it gives her father's bannermen the war they want, allowing her to mobilise Dorne - in which case Quentyn will not find it easy to usurp her, should he land with the Golden Company.

The Sand Snakes, of course, are more vengeful. Obara wants to sack Oldtown; Nym wants to kill Tywin, Jaime, Cersei and Tommen, in retribution for Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon and Oberyn; Tyene is the one who wants to crown Myrcella. But none of them want to harm Myrcella, because none of them are actually evil and want to harm a ward. If Ellaria is based on anyone in Dorne from the books, it's Dark Star. Which, you know, is really bizarre, because we're expected to believe that Oberyn was in love with this woman, and she's important enough that Doran won't imprison her after she directly threatens pretty much everyone. It's moronic to believe that she has this kind of power.

You argue that the Sand Snakes should have been merged into one character, and I've seen a lot of others echoing this sentiment. But, again, it defies the purpose - and the appeal - of the Sand Snakes. D&D sold them as a trio, and that should indicate why they were included and Arianne wasn't. If having one fleshed out character was the priority, they would have kept Arianne. And before anyone says they kept the Sand Snakes because they're gonna be "so important" in TWoW - please, actually think about what you're writing. Darkstar has been cut in the show, so Obara's hunt is gone too; meanwhile, Tyene's mother is not a septa in the show (in fact, it's Ellaria), so she won't be infiltrating the Faith Militant/Sparrows. And, again, their purpose is that they're a team(*), in which case it makes no sense to imagine that they'll be sent on different missions in the show. The logical conclusion is that they probably have a role going forward into season 6, but that it will have little resemblance to their book roles.

So why not cut the Sand Snakes and include Arianne? Obviously this choice is related to cutting Young Griff, but I don't think that means Arianne had to be cut. Instead, why not have her absorb whatever role the Sand Snakes will play?

As for why they were included in the books... I'm not sure what's difficult to understand? They're part of the Martell family and they want vengeance for Oberyn. And they're pretty extreme about it, to the extent that Doran has to have them imprisoned. This serves the purpose of driving a further wedge between Doran and Arianne (who legitimately fears for the safety and lives of her cousins). But their desire for vengeance is important as well, as they represent the extremism that our protagonists - Arianne and Doran - are torn between denying and embracing. They are, ultimately, a source of conflict for the protagonists - which is the whole purpose of side characters... Not to mention their importance in Quentyn's failed dragon-taming attempt; part of his reasoning is that, if he fails, he will continue to be mocked by the Sand Snakes. Obviously it wasn't crucial in his motivations, but it adds a bit more complexity and tragedy to the situation.

Ultimately, I don't think including the Sand Snakes was a smart choice. Nor do I think making Ellaria vengeful was a smart choice. And I don't even want to talk about Trystane/Myrcella and Jaime's rescue mission because they're not worth my time. But that isn't to say that the Sand Snakes had no potential - they could have been a great addition to the story in Dorne, but for that they needed to include the heart of Dorne: Arianne. Just look at the scene from the latest episode - we're 60% done with this season and the Martells look like they barely know each other. What do the Sand Snakes think of each other? What do they think of Trystane? What does Doran think of them? What about Doran and Trystane? Of course these are questions that could be answered later... But some kind of dynamic between characters is necessary when we're introduced to a new location. The only dynamics I've witnessed so far are Ellaria/Tyene, Trystane/Myrcella and Doran/Areo. The Sand Snakes themselves seem like hired help who don't really know each other, and it certainly doesn't appear like they're familar with Areo Hotah, considering Obara had to identify herself to him...

Dorne doesn't feel like a real place with real people who actually interact. So far in the show it's featured exposition, poor choreography and rushed plot points. If they didn't have the screentime to sell it properly, it should have been cut. But D&D apparently "liked" Dorne and wanted to include it...

(*) Obviously this isn't quite the same in the books, because the four eldest Sand Snakes are completely different. But in the promotional material for the show, they were deliberately selling the Sand Snakes as a trio of sister warriors.

I think its fairly obvious why they didn't include Arianne - they had already included Myrcella. The show is trying to restrain the number of players with an eye for the IT, not expand it. So show Doran's plans will all be about Trystane and what future can be secured for him, which now includes Myrcella. No Quentyn, we got to see Dany feed her dragons instead. No Arianne because it just creates too many subplots.

And yes, I liked Arianne - I thought she was one of the most well written females in ASoIaF - but at a base level she started out hot headed and vengeful. Being vengeful about what she thinks Quentyn is going to get is still being vengeful - she wants some kind of revenge for a wrong she perceived was done to her because she was too hot headed to wait for her father's reasoning to be explained.

I don't think having fleshed out characters is as big a priority as containing the story, now. Characters should not dictate plot, or the main purpose of a narrative. Plot and character are meant to compliment, or work with, each other to tell a story, unless it is a character study. And ASoIaF/GoTs is a primarily a dark fantasy/mythological saga - not a character study, even though GRRM tried to turn it into one with AFFC and ADwD.

Now, I'm not saying that show Dorne is perfect, or even good. it feels a bit like B grade trash to me. But, other than Doran and Arianne, Dorne in the books felt like trash to me also. It was funny to read Quentyn getting torched - but the joke wasn't worth the hundreds of pages of meaningless BS that preceded it. Yet, as explained above, Arianne is not possible in show because of Myrcella - the show is trying to link Tyrion's choice in Season 3 with consequences in Season 5, which the books didn't do with Dorne - the books made the Dornish all about plans with the Targs and the show has 1 of them, Dany, the last Targ.

[evetssteve10]

In the books we would at least get a chance to see them in action in the upcoming novel,whereas in the show we saw them and they looked terrible.The show messes up more and more with each upcoming episode.

No it doesn't this is the best show on TV

[Lord Damian]

The absence of Princess and heir to Dorne, Arianne Martell is actually way more depressing than the joke of those women in Dorne. Poor casting/writting decisions around that whole section of Westeros.

[DemiNymph]

I really don't get the rationalization that they have to cut Arianne because there will be no Young Griff. She can always exist and fulfil the Dorne heir thing. Not every princess needs to be married off.

Is this why they cut showYara? After her character is done with Theon they could find no fulfilling purpose for her because she doesn't have a suitable marriage prospect?

[ummester]

I really don't get the rationalization that they have to cut Arianne because there will be no Young Griff. She can always exist and fulfil the Dorne heir thing. Not every princess needs to be married off.

Is this why they cut showYara? After her character is done with Theon they could find no fulfilling purpose for her because she doesn't have a suitable marriage prospect?

I don't think its about whether they can marry them or not - I think it's about whether they can create interesting or fresh conflict with the characters that is still related to the story that unfolded in seasons 1-4.

This is the main problem with Arianne - she is not really related to anything that came before her, even though her and Doran are the main characters in GRRMs Dornish plot, she is hard to make relevant to the show.

Ellaria - Obyren's lover, seen in Season 4.

Doran - Obyren's brother, mentioned in Season 4.

Twystane - Myrcella's betrothed from Season 3.

Sandsnakes - Obyren's children, mentioned in Season 4.

Arya is a princess not being married off. Dany is a princess who is choosing her own marriages now.

Marriage in GoTs/ASoIaF is just a way of officially joining forces, whether forced or not, it is what it represents. There is no one left for Arianne to join forces with and she is not related to Obyren or previously mentioned in show - so how would including her tie into the shows plot?

[Stag_legion]

Sand snakes should have been cut and Arianne should have been in instead. that was a stupid decision they made in the character casting. I m guessing they did it to pander to "girl power" trope they thought would appeal to (some) the viewers, but this is a serious show, they shouldn't be pandering to anyone.

[Fylimar]

Patrick Stormborn: Nice post and I agree on most of it. I do find the lack of familiarity within the Martells a bit disturbing myself. House Martell is one of my favorites in the books and I even liked the Sandsnakes there as plot devices, but at the moment, House Martell in the show is lacking somewhat. And I, too, got the Darkstar vibe from Ellaria which is extreemly creepy.

Sadly, I can't see the Sandsnakes in the key positions, they have at the end of ADWD - the Faith,council, Oldtown. SOmehow that makes me dread, that they will completely destroy the Martell storyline.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think its fairly obvious why they didn't include Arianne - they had already included Myrcella. The show is trying to restrain the number of players with an eye for the IT, not expand it. So show Doran's plans will all be about Trystane and what future can be secured for him, which now includes Myrcella. No Quentyn, we got to see Dany feed her dragons instead. No Arianne because it just creates too many subplots.

And yes, I liked Arianne - I thought she was one of the most well written females in ASoIaF - but at a base level she started out hot headed and vengeful. Being vengeful about what she thinks Quentyn is going to get is still being vengeful - she wants some kind of revenge for a wrong she perceived was done to her because she was too hot headed to wait for her father's reasoning to be explained.

I don't think having fleshed out characters is as big a priority as containing the story, now. Characters should not dictate plot, or the main purpose of a narrative. Plot and character are meant to compliment, or work with, each other to tell a story, unless it is a character study. And ASoIaF/GoTs is a primarily a dark fantasy/mythological saga - not a character study, even though GRRM tried to turn it into one with AFFC and ADwD.

Now, I'm not saying that show Dorne is perfect, or even good. it feels a bit like B grade trash to me. But, other than Doran and Arianne, Dorne in the books felt like trash to me also. It was funny to read Quentyn getting torched - but the joke wasn't worth the hundreds of pages of meaningless BS that preceded it. Yet, as explained above, Arianne is not possible in show because of Myrcella - the show is trying to link Tyrion's choice in Season 3 with consequences in Season 5, which the books didn't do with Dorne - the books made the Dornish all about plans with the Targs and the show has 1 of them, Dany, the last Targ.

Aaaaand this is why we're disagreeing, and why you enjoy the show and I don't. You're fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of ASOIAF if you think GRRM is focusing on plot rather than character. He's not and he never has been. Since the beginning, ASOIAF has been a kind of bildungsroman for the Stark children, Dany and Tyrion. He says as much in the outline he sent to his publisher back in 1991.

Plot is meaningless without characters. That is especially true of TV shows, where investment in characters is what brings people back week after week.

Also your excuse for getting rid of Arianne is totally bullshit lol. They could have cut Arianne's interest in the throne and have her absorb the role of the Sand Snakes but retained her complicated relationship with Doran. They didn't because they preferred the idea of a trio of Sand Snakes. It's honestly that simple.

[ummester]

Aaaaand this is why we're disagreeing, and why you enjoy the show and I don't. You're fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of ASOIAF if you think GRRM is focusing on plot rather than character. He's not and he never has been. Since the beginning, ASOIAF has been a kind of bildungsroman for the Stark children, Dany and Tyrion. He says as much in the outline he sent to his publisher back in 1991.

Plot is meaningless without characters. That is especially true of TV shows, where investment in characters is what brings people back week after week.

Also your excuse for getting rid of Arianne is totally bullshit lol. They could have cut Arianne's interest in the throne and have her absorb the role of the Sand Snakes but retained her complicated relationship with Doran. They didn't because they preferred the idea of a trio of Sand Snakes. It's honestly that simple.

Plot is meaningless without characters and characters are meaningless, in a fictional narrative, unless they are plotted. Character is plot and plot is character - it's not an either or thing. Besides, if GRRM was so interested in a character study of his primary characters, why did he abandon them in Feast, if not for world-building or plot? Also, if GRRM really wants to write character studies, he could go pick a genuinely interesting real life person and write a biography, not chose a genre that it works less well in. Personally, I don't think he is trying to write character studies with ASoIaF, I think he is just trying to write an epic mythology, or dark fantasy - I think it is just a component of his book fans that get overly invested in their own interpretations of his characters that see it otherwise.

If the show made Arianne a warrior, people would complain about that change of character. The whole reason Arianne is not in the show, I think, is because Myrcella is and the show has enough princes and princesses. Myrcella was introduced first, as per the books and the deck was already stacked enough - bad luck Arianne,

[PatrickStormborn]

Plot is meaningless without characters and characters are meaningless, in a fictional narrative, unless they are plotted. Character is plot and plot is character - it's not an either or thing. Besides, if GRRM was so interested in a character study of his primary characters, why did he abandon them in Feast, if not for world-building or plot? Also, if GRRM really wants to write character studies, he could go pick a genuinely interesting real life person and write a biography, not chose a genre that it works less well in. Personally, I don't think he is trying to write character studies with ASoIaF, I think he is just trying to write an epic mythology, or dark fantasy - I think it is just a component of his book fans that get overly invested in their own interpretations of his characters that see it otherwise.

If the show made Arianne a warrior, people would complain about that change of character. The whole reason Arianne is not in the show, I think, is because Myrcella is and the show has enough princes and princesses. Myrcella was introduced first, as per the books and the deck was already stacked enough - bad luck Arianne,

LOL - "it's not a character study because he would be writing a biography" I'm sorry but I don't know what to say to that...

They didn't have to make Arianne a warrior!!! Your strawman arguments are tiring. She could have taken the role of the Sand Snakes without being made into a warrior.

It had nothing to do with Myrcella, and that should be obvious.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think its fairly obvious why they didn't include Arianne - they had already included Myrcella. The show is trying to restrain the number of players with an eye for the IT, not expand it. So show Doran's plans will all be about Trystane and what future can be secured for him, which now includes Myrcella. No Quentyn, we got to see Dany feed her dragons instead. No Arianne because it just creates too many subplots.

And yes, I liked Arianne - I thought she was one of the most well written females in ASoIaF - but at a base level she started out hot headed and vengeful. Being vengeful about what she thinks Quentyn is going to get is still being vengeful - she wants some kind of revenge for a wrong she perceived was done to her because she was too hot headed to wait for her father's reasoning to be explained.

I don't think having fleshed out characters is as big a priority as containing the story, now. Characters should not dictate plot, or the main purpose of a narrative. Plot and character are meant to compliment, or work with, each other to tell a story, unless it is a character study. And ASoIaF/GoTs is a primarily a dark fantasy/mythological saga - not a character study, even though GRRM tried to turn it into one with AFFC and ADwD.

Now, I'm not saying that show Dorne is perfect, or even good. it feels a bit like B grade trash to me. But, other than Doran and Arianne, Dorne in the books felt like trash to me also. It was funny to read Quentyn getting torched - but the joke wasn't worth the hundreds of pages of meaningless BS that preceded it. Yet, as explained above, Arianne is not possible in show because of Myrcella - the show is trying to link Tyrion's choice in Season 3 with consequences in Season 5, which the books didn't do with Dorne - the books made the Dornish all about plans with the Targs and the show has 1 of them, Dany, the last Targ.

I'm sorry but you don't get to have it both ways. I don't agree that Dorne was trash in the books, but if it was, then it should be cut completely in the show. I thought the whole point of streamlining was getting rid of the trash? So either the show screwed up by turning something that was good into trash(my opinion), or the show screwed up by including something that was trash to begin with (your opinion). In both cases the show screwed up.

[ummester]

LOL - "it's not a character study because he would be writing a biography" I'm sorry but I don't know what to say to that...

They didn't have to make Arianne a warrior!!! Your strawman arguments are tiring. She could have taken the role of the Sand Snakes without being made into a warrior.

It had nothing to do with Myrcella, and that should be obvious.

How is my argument possibly a false representation of yours? You are suggesting that character is more important than plot in ASoIaF, or have I misinterpreted that?

It has everything to do with Myrcella - the princess quota has been reached, Arianne would just be one too many. The show isn't trying to expand into new characters and subplots like the books are.