Philpenn Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Worst "bring your daughter to work day" ever.Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Stannis always seemed pragmatic about Mel's power though - he never seemed (in book or show) like he believed in R'hllor, so much as believed Mel was in touch with something that made for a powerful ally. Selyse, Mel - they had faith, which Stannis never seemed to have. I'm not sure if burning Shireen represents a turning point where Stannis actually became a desperate believer (in himself?). As for what Mel really is and is really in touch with - I think the faith is correct when they call R'hllor a demon. I think it's the point (in the Show) at which Stannis decides that he is prepared to commit any crime to attain the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I think it's the point (in the Show) at which Stannis decides that he is prepared to commit any crime to attain the Iron Throne. Yea, I can see that - and saw that in the scene - it was the point at which Stannis decided that what he wanted was more important than anything else (hence his little talk with Shireen). You recall what Shireen said to Stannis, before offering to help him, 'I wouldn't have chosen either, it's all the chosing sides that makes everyone so horrible'. I'm sure that is an insight into what the show (and probably books) is actually about, right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Vale Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 A lot of fair weather fans here. I was on Team Stannis before. It would be wrong of me to leave the team now.This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 There aren't enough of us on team Other :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 There is not a lot if any talk of Heaven or an afterworld where there is goodness for the good and innocent. We hear about hell and seven hells but I would like to think and hope in this world that there is such a place and that little Shireen Baratheon is there, with counless other innocents, happy, scar free and singing and reading. I adored that sweet little girl but the foreshadowing of this end for her was there all along. Unless there was a glamour, she is gone to a better place. I do wonder if Shireen had not been scared with greyscale or was a son/Prince, that she would not have been sacraficed. That thought angers me as it should not matter and it should not have been done. However, since it has, Stannis I hope does not not let his daughter's murder have been for nothing and he kills every damn Bolton and supporter he can, except for Sansa Bolton (God, I hate to say that but it is her name, ughh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yea, I can see that - and saw that in the scene - it was the point at which Stannis decided that what he wanted was more important than anything else (hence his little talk with Shireen). You recall what Shireen said to Stannis, before offering to help him, 'I wouldn't have chosen either, it's all the chosing sides that makes everyone so horrible'. I'm sure that is an insight into what the show (and probably books) is actually about, right there.In broad strokes I tend to agree with that idea. But the show won't be able to convey that at all unless something changes drastically in the way they're telling the story, and I don't think that will happen. Where Martin carefully constructs and develops characters and plots, the Ds seem to think it's all about sharp 180° turns in characters' motivations and behaviour to create the 'unexpected'. It's very sloppy and clumsy storytelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 In broad strokes I tend to agree with that idea. But the show won't be able to convey that at all unless something changes drastically in the way they're telling the story, and I don't think that will happen. Where Martin carefully constructs and develops characters and plots, the Ds seem to think it's all about sharp 180° turns in characters' motivations and behaviour to create the 'unexpected'. It's very sloppy and clumsy storytelling. Well it depends - neither has finished yet. What I simplified as the books got boring and the show got silly, I have seen more eloquently described in terms of the amount of nuance and detail that GRRM includes in his novels, which D&D disregard in favor of wow moments and the big picture. I don't think either method is best for this narrative, at the stage it has reached. With the amount of nuance and detail GRRM prefers, it will never, ever, be finished - but D&D could definitely do with some more, especially 21 hrs from the conclusion. There is a middle ground - this story would be better serviced in that place between GRRM and D&D, or, better serviced if they continued working together on televising it first, then having GRRM include all the nuance and detail he desires in his literal version. NB - I know that may seem like sacrilege to fans who fell in love with the books first but no-one can change what is done - the show has become the premier delivery method for this saga and it is rolling forward in a manner that no-one, not even HBO, can control - so the best thing that everyone who has a vested interest, like GRRM, can do, is latch on and try and roll it in the best way possible. If, if GRRM can get both novels out before the next 2 seasons of the show, then he should, of course, do that - but I don't think he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 Bittersweet does not mean many deaths. Deaths have nothing to do with whether the ending of a story is heroic, tragic or bittersweet.Oh please, give me a break! We were talking about Shireen, and I made a brief comment.I started a thread on what a 'bittersweet ending' meant several years ago, and 400 posts didn't even begin to scratch the surface of what that could encompass. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Well it depends - neither has finished yet. What I simplified as the books got boring and the show got silly, I have seen more eloquently described in terms of the amount of nuance and detail that GRRM includes in his novels, which D&D disregard in favor of wow moments and the big picture. I don't think either method is best for this narrative, at the stage it has reached. With the amount of nuance and detail GRRM prefers, it will never, ever, be finished - but D&D could definitely do with some more, especially 21 hrs from the conclusion. There is a middle ground - this story would be better serviced in that place between GRRM and D&D, or, better serviced if they continued working together on televising it first, then having GRRM include all the nuance and detail he desires in his literal version. NB - I know that may seem like sacrilege to fans who fell in love with the books first but no-one can change what is done - the show has become the premier delivery method for this saga and it is rolling forward in a manner that no-one, not even HBO, can control - so the best thing that everyone who has a vested interest, like GRRM, can do, is latch on and try and roll it in the best way possible. If, if GRRM can get both novels out before the next 2 seasons of the show, then he should, of course, do that - but I don't think he can. I beg to differ. I don't think the show can still deliver that sort of ending. The thing is, these books can be read in many different ways, one of those being reading it as an adventure/action fantasy story. That is the end the show will achieve: who lives and who dies, who goes where and does what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Storm Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I think Davos is leaving to hire a faceless man to kill Mel. He couldn't save Shireen and knew something was going to happen but he was being carefully watched and Mel wouldn't let him get away with what he did before again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philpenn Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Davos better have deep pockets then.Has a ballpark ever been mentioned for how much hiring a Faceless Man costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 Davos better have deep pockets then. Has a ballpark ever been mentioned for how much hiring a Faceless Man costs? Faceless men cost basically everything you have if you are poor, and enough to make it hurt if you are rich. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Storm Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Davos better have deep pockets then.Has a ballpark ever been mentioned for how much hiring a Faceless Man costs?costs a lot but Davos was a smuggler and I trust that he'd find a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 First of all, whatever we saw on Sunday last has nothing to do with what happens in the books. So, we have no idea under which circumstances and by whom Shireen will be burned in the books. All we do know is that David Benioff claims GRRM told him and Dan Weiss she will be burned. That tells me nothing much at all except that the scene we were tortured into viewing is invented. In the books, Stannis is marching on WF without Shireen, Selyse and Melisandre, so it will not happen the way it was written by Benioff&Weiss mind factory. Stannis in the show is therefore dead as a character, although he had been devastated during the burning and after it one could see he was dead inside. He has crossed his Rubicon. There is no way back. Benioff&Weiss cheapened this sacrifice by linking it to Winterfell as a goal. Of course, if you watch the scene between Shireen and Stannis several times, you can see that Stannis is talking about his destiny, about "being who you are destined to be despite of hating it" and "about having no choice". He also asks his daughter to forgive him. However, since the writing is poor, all of this seems rushed, illogical and ultimately not sincere enough for us to find a modicum of understanding for Stannis's choice. That being said, since it is a total show invention and D&D have a long track record of poor, illogical and shock designed choices that are killing all GRRM's hard work, it tells me nothing about what will actually happen with Stannis and Shireen in the books. Personally, I have found it perfectly clear from book 1 that Stannis will never ever sit on the Iron Throne. He has his role to play in this saga, but that role is not to rule 7 Kingdoms. I said it before, Stannis is that reliable guy in the office who does a lot of good work, but never goes to the pub with lads on a Friday night. Hence, he never get a well deserved promotion. So, one day he snaps and kills a half of his colleagues and everyone says he is a psycho. Stannis has lost his way long time ago - when he killed Renly. GRRM's world is simple. Kinslaying is a horrible sin against the gods. Stannis has done that in his "righteous" quest for the IT. And the gods have been punishing him back, but he does not realise it. He will lose everything and everyone and, in the end, he will die without really caring anymore. Melisandre, that shadow binding witch, is sucking all goodness around her. It is simple. Shadow binding is the darkest magic there is. So, nothing good can come out of it. Her motives are totally unclear, but I do not buy this R'hllor business at all. Stannis is a guy who lost his moral way, because he thinks that, if his claim is just, he can do just about anything to pursue it, while forgetting that the more horrible deeds he does, the farther he gets from his goal. So, he is a very tragic figure. Shame that he has been killed so prematurely by D&D. Now, no one cares if he lives or dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I beg to differ. I don't think the show can still deliver that sort of ending. The thing is, these books can be read in many different ways, one of those being reading it as an adventure/action fantasy story. That is the end the show will achieve: who lives and who dies, who goes where and does what. Of course the ambiguity of the nooks can never translate to screen. Any filmed version of any literary thing is always less open to interpretation, it's just the nature of the different mediums. You will always interpret the books your way, me my way and D&D their way. But the major themes, like 'picking sides makes people bad', can be translated. This is why GRRm should always be involved in the translation, to make sure the interpretation is as the author intended, for screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Storm Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 But the major themes, like 'picking sides makes people bad', can be translated. This is why GRRm should always be involved in the translation, to make sure the interpretation is as the author intended, for screen. Martin as said on his blog that he doesn't have any say on what happens on the show, so most likely this means this scene was mostly invented for the show and doesn't happen in the same manner as the books. My feeling is the writers were allowed to do what they will. Some of my most bitter tears is Jaime being in Dorne which is the most boring part of the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Some of my most bitter tears is Jaime being in Dorne which is the most boring part of the show. Well I still can't make full sense of why Jamie is in Dorne - though I've got a feeling it's going to end up with Tommen dead and Myrcella on the IT next season. I think show Doran's master plan is having his wedded son 50% in charge of the 7 kingdoms - making his plan an organic result of Tyrion's actions in season 3 and keeping it connected. I find the Tyrion whitewashing has a larger overall effect on narrative meaning though - supplanting Selmy with Tyrion, so that Tyrion can avoid his descent into dehumanization and having to confront how he feels about his dwarfism via Penny, just cheapens him entirely as a protagonist. And we didn't get to see Selmy charge at Drogon, which would have been a season highlight, if included. This situation also makes me wonder how much may be beyond the control of even D&D (I don't think they would have any issues dehumanizing Tyrion in the name of 'drama') and in the control of celebrity and perceived public opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbob Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 They better not ignore or forget what happens. Her death should be equivalent to Ned's death in that it had a major impact on people and people kept talking and thinking about it and having an affect on stuff. It would suck if Mel's magic works and then everyone's like, "oh okay", then she's completely forgotten except in some dialogue here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I haven't read the whole thread, but I assume this is the one where we discuss the implications for the books (as this site makes it almost impossible to find the appropriate place to discuss that, for those of us whose only interest in the sorry Show is to glean hints of future book plots). With that said, I think it is quite clear that Shireen is burning in the books too. But it seems to have been set up so that Melisandre and Selyse, after hearing the contents of the Pink Letter, probably do the burning in order to resurrect Stannis from his supposed death as proclaimed by Ramsay in the letter. Hence, it won't be Stannis burning Shireen. It will be the fanatical Selyse and her confused omen reader, Mellisandre. I favor the idea that after Shireen is burned, Jon wakes up. They intended to wake a dragon, and that is indeed what it will achieve. She might be the sacrifice of Fire. With Theon being the sacrifice of Ice, in front of the Heart Tree on the island. Something along those lines. EDIT Regarding Ellaria (or whichever of the Dornish hot-tempered women that actress happens to portray) chatting to Jaime. The implication to me was that she was willing to forego vengeance on Jaime and Myrcella, but that the one Jaime loved most of all - Cersei - was now their target. That doesn't make sense. Why would Selyse be involved in killing Shireen in the books? Book-Selyse cares for her daughter and wants to see her on the Iron Throne. This is what Selyse says in the books: This is the king's true heir. Shireen will one day sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. And why the hell would she sacrifice Shireen for Stannis who she only has a superficial relationship with in the books? I think you're confusing book-Selyse with show-Selyse. Also Melisandre, if she does it, won't do it for Stannis. All she sees is snow (or ...Snow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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