Colonel Green Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 At this point I'm really not sure how Winterfell's immediate situation is going to play out. I think Stannis is toast at this point, at Brienne's hands. Does his supplement Brienne rescuing Sansa, or is she going off on her own tangent? However, as far as "different roads to the same castle" go, one thing I find rather interesting is that this episode raises the possibility of Davos sort of rejoining his book arc. I'm not sure whether there will be a Pink Letter, but I think the most obvious reason Sansa was told that Jon is Lord Commander is because, after she escapes Winterfell, she will go there. Coincidentally, that is also where Davos is going -- and I think we can agree that Davos, though he doesn't know it yet, is now done with Stannis. Given that Sansa has just found out that her brothers are alive, perhaps the now-disillusioned Davos is going to be recruited to help find them (which is effectively Rickon, since Bran isn't around to be found). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Sinister Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 we would have someone to root for next week in the Winterfell showdown.. now its just two hated sides fighting against eachother.. what fun is there in that.. The Fighting pits would also have been better if we hadn't heard the screams of a little girl incinerating prior.. everything was secondary after that horrible sequence.. I understand that this is GOT and bad things happen even to good people.. but sometimes stories need to have Justice and Good people succeeding.. I dont want to watch something that constantly depresses me... over and over... but thats just me ..personally.. anyone agree? That was essentially what I was yelling at the TV last night. At least give us a positive outcome to burning a child (if such a thing is even possible)...cut to Ramsay falling over from a heart attack, or have him attacked by a mysterious pack of wolves (a la The Omen), something...ANYTHING! It's fine to show that sometimes the good guys lose, and maybe that would be what sets this series of books apart from others, in that it doesn't end with unicorns and rainbows, but for a TV series, we need to be fed the occasional cookie of hope. Last night, we joined Cersei in drinking stagnant water off of the floor of our cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogorath Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 A lot of fair weather fans here. I was on Team Stannis before. It would be wrong of me to leave the team now. Or, you know, you could take new information in, evaluate it and decide that Stannis may not be worth backing. Why is the idea of re-evaluating a choice in light of new information such a bad thing to some people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogorath Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 No. Even if they would die in the coming apocalypse as well? As cold as Stannis is ... I don't think the flaw in his leadership is his decision to sacrifice his daughter for the world. It's in his certainty that this setup (Shireen versus the world) is both true and the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayarts Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stannis has to die, obviously. He was doomed in my opinion the moment he killed his brother, and I NEVER understood how people could admire him so much here in the forums. Although this scene made me sick to my stomach (I thought that Mel/Selyse would try to burn Shireen and hoped that she would be rescued one way or another, hopefully by Stannis...), I feel like "Told ya, didn' I? Who loves Stannis now?"... He should die by Brienne's hands, that would be logical and nice and satisfying. But oh well, GoT is all over the place by now. I just hope next season will be better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny's Warrior Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Davos going to the wall in an intriguing one. I think instead of the pink letter it'll be him that triggers FTW if Jon agrees to send the NW's already dwindling supplies to aid Stannis the bad Mannis. I just hope he doesn't cop one in the neck if it kicks off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrake34 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Davos going to the wall in an intriguing one. I think instead of the pink letter it'll be him that triggers FTW if Jon agrees to send the NW's already dwindling supplies to aid Stannis the bad Mannis. I just hope he doesn't cop one in the neck if it kicks off. I think the Pink Letter still happens. The preview for next week shows Jon sitting at his desk, full of letters, and he looks stressed. Another voice, sounds like Sam asks "what are you going to do?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayarts Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 As someone who's never liked Stannis but had a strong fatherly affection for Shireen, I truly believe that this season will be where people look back and say "Yeah, that's where Game of Thrones lost its touch." Most of the time, when a character dies, there's some type of lesson/moral to the story. This scene was purely done for shock and to demonize Stannis. It's not only bad taste, but piss poor writing that they created such a loveable character only to use her as a method of making people hate another character. Yeah, but thats what D&D do more often than not - they translate GRRM's quite realistic takes on the cruelty in the world in bizarre shock effects for the show. They do a poor job by now, you can show cruelty and so on, but in a show it has to make sense to some degree. Season 5 is just all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnowed Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Without being overly critical (I still love the show) I do agree that there have been too many plot holes and storylines well below the usual standard (Dorne) then on the flipside we have Hardholme which is one of the best ever episodes and as good as anything in the books. How can D&D have got Hardholme so incredibly right but Dorne so incredibly bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libertylanding Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Obviously, I disapprove of this -- seems ridiculously contrary to Stannis' character as it has been developed (or at least as it had been developed in the books). He is a man who self-empties for the sake of duty, and he has duties toward his families. Not to mention it is ridiculously self-defeating: his wife is clearly past childbearing age so he has no hope of getting another heir by her. His dynasty will die with him now and the realm would be plunged back into chaos after his own death, even if he won. But more urgently I disapprove of the clumsy, rushed, ham-handed way this was handled. There were other ways to burn Shireen if it absolutely needed to be done for story reasons, e.g., leaving her and Melisandre at the Wall and having her burn Shireen without his knowledge/consent. They could've developed it in some way, rather than having it be an apparently last-minute decision. And why didn't Davos react? He saw the look on Stannis' face. He knew what he was planning. Not a murmur of doubt expressed? This, from the man who knows what Melisandre is about? (I suppose though he really really really didn't think Stannis capable of that, and misunderstood everything -- but his whole exchange about taking Shireen back to the Wall with him would seem to indicate otherwise). More generally I am annoyed at how transparently manipulative the show is becoming. We have had almost 0 interaction between Stannis and Shireen before this season, then suddenly had a very touching moment between them -- which we now see was set-up to make us annoyed at Stannis when he burns her (which everyone suspected was an effort to make us care about a character they were going to kill imminently). Rather like how we all knew, the moment Karsi was revealed to have children she's fond of, that either she or they would die horribly and probably pretty soon. It's juvenile, and getting really difficult to take seriously. EDIT: Also, I'm not gonna be one of those "that's it, I'm done with this show" people even though I was totally Team Stannis before. (And I feel like I look like the world's biggest jerk now, having publicly been a Stannis fan, to the bafflement of all my friends). I'm already on the train: I can't help watching the wreck. :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Without being overly critical (I still love the show) I do agree that there have been too many plot holes and storylines well below the usual standard (Dorne) then on the flipside we have Hardholme which is one of the best ever episodes and as good as anything in the books. How can D&D have got Hardholme so incredibly right but Dorne so incredibly bad? It's been give and take with D & D for a while now as far as changes go...This season to me has been pretty bad, Hardhome excepted, on that front. Which is a big exception because Hardhome was so amazing. But yeah, Dorne, among other D & D created storylines, has been a total mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 As far as where we go: I'm still saying we must get Lady Stoneheart. I don't see how it gets cut out, especially now when the Finale is gonna be one gut-punch after another after this downer of an episode with Shireen. You need that "Hell yeah" moment for next week and it just seems like too big of a plotline to cut out. Obviously Olly is stabbing Jon. The show couldn't make that any clearer as they have lost any desire to do subtlety anymore. Too many characters for Unsullied to follow so all subtlety goes out the window I guess? We're gonna get the Doran "Fire and Blood" speech next week. Only thing that could possibly give ANY POINT to every scene in Dorne so far. WHat a failure that has been on all levels. Brienne/Pod will obviously somehow save Sansa. Don't understand what the point was of even having Brienne this season, she's done absolutely nothing. Overall to me, this show's decision to cut out the Riverlands so far has been disastrous. Everything bad has stemmed from that. I'm guessing they realize that and will eventually be going back there (especially with casting news for next year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark the Red Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Stannis has to die, obviously. He was doomed in my opinion the moment he killed his brother, and I NEVER understood how people could admire him so much here in the forums. Although this scene made me sick to my stomach (I thought that Mel/Selyse would try to burn Shireen and hoped that she would be rescued one way or another, hopefully by Stannis...), I feel like "Told ya, didn' I? Who loves Stannis now?"... He should die by Brienne's hands, that would be logical and nice and satisfying. But oh well, GoT is all over the place by now. I just hope next season will be better... Danaerys kills her brother and everyone cheers it on. Is Dany doomed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libertylanding Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Danaerys kills her brother and everyone cheers it on. Is Dany doomed? Dany didn't kill her brother (Drogo did; she merely permitted it). She did, however, kill her husband -- for what I think all can agree are decent enough reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philpenn Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Danaerys kills her brother and everyone cheers it on. Is Dany doomed?Drogo did that, but Dany did allow it. If that frees Dany of the crime, is Stannis freed from killing his brother because he had a shadow do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark the Red Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Dany didn't kill her brother (Drogo did; she merely permitted it). She did, however, kill her husband -- for what I think all can agree are decent enough reasons. We're talking semantics here. Stannis permitted the murder of Renly although I am pretty sure he was not remote piloting the shadow directly. Who cares? My theory is that in today's Hollywood murdering a gay character (Renly) is a greater evil than straight up vanilla murder (Viserys). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~DarkHorse~ Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think the Pink Letter still happens. The preview for next week shows Jon sitting at his desk, full of letters, and he looks stressed. Another voice, sounds like Sam asks "what are you going to do?" That could just be the letter Stannis sent Davos with. Davos was not sent back to the Wall for no reason. This is the Pink letter. There has been no set up for the Pink Letter, no reason for Ramsay to threaten Jon. The only other option is for Sansa to have sent Jon a letter asking for help. However, that wouldn't give Jon an excuse to get the NW involved in the politics of the realm so I can't see that happening. Most likely, Jon will agree to give Stannis the already dwindling supplies of the NW and anger his NW brothers in the process. The Wildlings are already using up their supplies and now he is agreeing to give more away. Remember, Stannis did lend Jon those ships so he owes him one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Even if they would die in the coming apocalypse as well? As cold as Stannis is ... I don't think the flaw in his leadership is his decision to sacrifice his daughter for the world. It's in his certainty that this setup (Shireen versus the world) is both true and the only option. I said no. I meant: no, no matter what. Let me give you a quote: King Baldwin IV: [Baldwin chuckles] When I was sixteen, I won a great victory. I felt in that moment I would live to be a hundred. Now I know I shall not see thirty. None of us know our end, really, or what hand will guide us there. A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus," or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice. Remember that. Balian of Ibelin: I will. If you are lazy, just read the bold pieces one after another. When you slain the 'evil' with 'evil' weapons, you take his place.I value my soul, my moral integrity if you wish, above everything else. What is death? Death will eventually come to us all anyway.If we are not able to live righteously, then are we worthy of living at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woofless Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Not understanding why people think Brienne will kill Stannis.Her mission is saving Starks. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Not understanding why people think Brienne will kill Stannis. Her mission is saving Starks. No? She was sworn to Renly, she loved him and witnessed Stannis'shadow murdering him. She repeated that she wanted to kill Stannis several times, it happened in this season too. Plus, after Stannis did what he did, most people want him pay with his life for that crime. And the legends against kin-slayers want it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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