Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 They did it because they are cowards who aren't willing to defend the scene on its merits so they use GRRM as their shield.no you're the coward because you can't face up to the fact that this was always in the cards for Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 no you're the coward because you can't face up to the fact that this was always in the cards for Stannis. Nothing in the video confirms that this is Stannis' decision in the books. Shireen gets burned - we all called it four years ago after ADWD was published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 That man burned his child after being like, one day deprived of resources.Everything in the show is very much unrealistically compressed.. even the battle at hardhome was unrealistically too short. Is cherry picking to point out the absurd decisions of the shows? Yeah, right. If you don't mind them, that's fine. That doesn't mean they aren't there. I'm not the one in denial here. And it's not just Stannis. Doran is also sending his one and only heir to the place his sister and brother got killed. Why? No idea. If Doran dies, KL has the heir of Dorne in their hands. Look how that work for Sansa Stark. Idem for Mace Tyrell. Loras is their only heir and considering his position right now, they better start to look for a cousin to continue the family line. Stannis in the show, not the books, has been portrayed to not only care for his daughter but to actually protect them because it's HIS DUTY. That's why he told Selyse. I didn't feed you because I loved you, but because I had to. He also said, in the same scene, Shireen was his heir. So, why is Stannis even fighting if he doesn't have one heir? Is Stannis planning to live forever? Is he going to get Selyse pregnant with a child that will be totally and absolutely be born male before he parts to war? He wins Winterfell and... the Baratheons are over? Where is the logic in his actions? Somewhere over the rainbow, definitely because they are not around here. If you or anybody wants to say they like the show, fine. Say you love the show. But don't say the show is consistent. Because it's not. And some of us don't turn off our brains when watching tv. It has nothing to do with being a reader. It has to do with the fact the show contradicts itself. Please, compare the way in which Davos confronts Shireen in this episode (and all other episodes) with the stare and words of Stannis when he 'parented' his daughter. On the show, Stannis is no better father than Tywyin Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Bazunor the Twisted Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Lol the reactions are priceless. Everything I had hoped for. :smoking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornCornSnow Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm not going to go through all the various quotes that show that you're wrong, there are plenty of threads where much more meticulous readers than myself have made excellent cases that this was coming. However I am going to point out how flimsy your argument is, it's predicated on the idea that Stannis will never even see his daughter again, which means all is lost for him anyway, so what's the point? Do I think Stannis will burn Shireen in the books in order to get to Winterfell? No, and I never said I did because logistically it makes no sense. Do I think there will be an even more dire situation for Stannis where Shireen is close at hand and he chooses to feed her to the fire? Absolutely, because he has an iron will and won't bend for anyone or anything, including his own daughter. Besides, book Stannis doesn't seem to have the warm fuzzies for his daughter the way show Stannis does, which will only make it easier. If you don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books in order to get to Winterfell, why are you arguing for precisely that? That's exactly what "this scene" was. It's impossible for that to happen in the books. When Shireen dies in ASOIAF, I suspect it will be with much more nuance than the ham-handed story-telling we witnessed tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub_Zero94 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'd bet on it being Melisandre who does it but you never know. likely yes. for a dead or dying Jon. nothing like what we saw tonight :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Nothing in the video confirms that this is Stannis' decision in the books. Shireen gets burned - we all called it four years ago after ADWD was published. denial denial denial, you wanna fool yourself until the scene is actually published, be my guest, but you'll feel better if you just accept it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleenys Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 If you don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books in order to get to Winterfell, why are you arguing for precisely that? That's exactly what "this scene" was. It's impossible for that to happen in the books. When Shireen dies in ASOIAF, I suspect it will be with much more nuance than the ham-handed story-telling we witnessed tonight. Yup. Another shitty storyline decision by D&D, who would have guessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, we're on denial. The ones who are actually talking about five books and an author that, despite his mistakes, knows consistency, characterization, development and narrative are in denial, but not those who keep defending the work of two guys who have clearly said "we don't care about themes. We don't want logic, things happen because we want them to happen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb_Warged Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Not a Stannis fan, but i threw up in my mouth watching this episode. GRRM on amazon where they are shilling his books writes "the closest thing to a hero in these books is Stannis, etc etc". GRRM just last season went on fuckingn tv and said "stannis is saving the realm to become king" and not 8 episodes later has this dude burn his only daughter alive because of a little snow flurry, and his soldiers getting the sniffles. Its going to be like pulling teeth reading TWOW now. Oh yay, another Theon chapter, woopee, be still my beating heart. Choice between the child burner and the child skinner, yay. What original storeytelling GRRM. Not like the readers should actually enjoy reading and all that. So now we have to root for Dany and Tyrion, as D&D shove their shit down our throats. I know what i'm cheering for next season. A snow avalanche in Santa Fe, NM. Thats what. Fuck these books The Shireen thing, and how Sansa has been treated this season and how I feel between Henry the Heir or Littlefinger she'll get about the same treatment in TWOW, I've been feeling this way. There needs to be joyful moments. If it's just nonstop disappointment, who's going to read that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Doran is also sending his one and only heir to the place his sister and brother got killed. Why? No idea. If Doran dies, KL has the heir of Dorne in their hands. Look how that work for Sansa Stark. Idem for Mace Tyrell. Loras is their only heir and considering his position right now, they better start to look for a cousin to continue the family line. don't you think that he is placing Myrcella and Trystane in the right place to 'claim' the crown if something happens to Tommen? or perhaps Trystane and Doran's plan is to set aside Myrcella as soon as Daenerys reaches Westeros, and they are only using the poor girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanmaodao Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Are you kidding me? Are you listening to yourself? Yeah I'm sure D&D went out of their way to bald faced lie about this scene on International television, because there's no way that could come back to bite them. This was GRRM's idea, pure and simple, he's been laying the groundwork for this scene since ACOK. Get over it. No kidding. Nearly everyone claiming that they're not angry that Shireen burned, just how it happened, would be grandstanding about the fact of child burning itself and how it's unconscionable and irredeemable to happen at all and Ding and Dong, had this Behind the Episode clip not leaked. The usual tiresome folk who write screechy essays after each episode would probably have devoted several paragraphs sermonizing about how child murder should never be on TV and other manufactured outrage. Now that this clip has leaked, they're so obviously recalibrating. I have my own criticisms of this season but boy is it hard sometimes when voicing them would put me in their company. I do think this deserved much more of a buildup, because the comparison between Stannis in Storm's End and here isn't without merit. The show devoted several episodes of NW giving Jon the stinkeye for buildup to FTW, something similar would have been ideal here. Stannis isn't as major a character as Jon so it could never have been equal, but more than one episode of buildup was needed. The decision seemed too hasty. And I agree that Balon should have died before this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 denial denial denial, you wanna fool yourself until the scene is actually published, be my guest, but you'll feel better if you just accept it now. I reserve the right to criticize any decision GRRM makes as well. Since book Stannis is far more sympathetic that his show counterpart, deciding to burn Shireen would be even more out of character... and poor storytelling. Shireen is getting burned, no argument there, but I doubt Stannis has anything to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think people is giving too much credit to the whole "GRRM told us" quote. Look, in the show, Sansa marries Ramsay, who is a monster, and gets raped by him in order to achieve revenge. In the books 1. Ramsay gets a fake Stark wife and he abuses her physically and sexually 2. Sansa might get married to a guy and this could end up putting her in a position of power. Technically, D&D get Sansa's storyline from the books: she gets married to a guy she doesn't like in order to achieve something. But that will definitely not happen in the books at all. Harry won't rape Sansa. She might have sex with him and believe it was awful, but that's very different to what happened her in showWinterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanmaodao Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I have many problems. But firstly who the f--k do the showrunners think they are for outright spoiling the books? If they wanted to burn Shireen fine, why did they have to open their yap and say "when George told us", they go ahead of the books, go off-book and merge characters and do whatever damn thing that comes to their mind and leave it to the readers to sort out if what happens will happen, or in the same manner in the books, but outright spoiling the books is well, I don't know. The books were always going to get spoiled as we get closer to the meeting point in the plot. Comments like these are par the course for "Behind the Episode" style featurettes, which only a tiny percentage of people pay attention to. More people happen to be paying attention this time because of the gravity of the scene. What people are really mad about is having to nuance and weaken their put-upon outrage in response to the revelation that this scene was much more author-inspired than they thought. (Though what "this" refers to is not 100% clear; Shireen almost certainly burns, in what circumstance is not really clear until I read it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 If you don't think that Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books in order to get to Winterfell, why are you arguing for precisely that? That's exactly what "this scene" was. It's impossible for that to happen in the books. When Shireen dies in ASOIAF, I suspect it will be with much more nuance than the ham-handed story-telling we witnessed tonight.what on earth are you talking about? This scene made sense for show Stannis, but it wouldn't make sense for book Stannis. However, that doesn't mean they aren't drawing from a scene where book Stannis makes the same decision because it does make sense for at that point. I imagine it will be after the battle for Winterfell, probably as the Others attack the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ammad101 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I should point out that, according to D&D, it only took Stannis a moment to decide to burn his beloved daughter. During the siege of dragonstone, this mofo starved for a year (FOR A FCUKIN YEAR) and survived on rats, but didn’t surrender. This time, however, all it took was a sneak attack on his supplies for Stannis to give in; this totally goes against his character. This was a poor decision by D&D and I think they were too focused on "immediate shock value" of the decision rather then letting the character "arrive" at the decision. I think this scene would have served well as the last scene of the season. Put the kettle on in this episode and let the kettle come to the boiling point in the next episode. At the point of starvation, Stannis could have given in to the Red Woman (Queen Selsye is a fanatic believer of the red god and why she is not standing beside LM proudly is beyond me). This would have served as a grim ending to the season and the viewers would have known the true meaning of the Stark motto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 The books were always going to get spoiled as we get closer to the meeting point in the plot. Comments like these are par the course for "Behind the Episode" style featurettes, which only a tiny percentage of people pay attention to. More people happen to be paying attention this time because of the gravity of the scene. What people are really mad about is having to nuance and weaken their put-upon outrage in response to the revelation that this scene was much more author-inspired than they thought. (Though what "this" refers to is not 100% clear; Shireen almost certainly burns, in what circumstance is not really clear until I read it.) Truth be told, I didn't actually watch the scene. I've suffered through the worst GOT has to offer, but I finally found my limit. You have to draw th line somewhere I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artihcus022 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Again, I'm not sure why you're surprised, or why you're calling me a liar for that matter, but they have mentioned plenty of times that this season will have spoilers from Winds. I suggest you drop the show now if you're worried about being spoilers. I am calling you that, because you refuse to see my point. I am not talking about the episode. I am talking about them stating in Behind the Scenes promotionals that the scene they show that is not there in Book 5 will happen at a later stage in the books. That is spoilers, that is them telling inside information the author gave them to the readers. What they show in the episodes itself is up for the audience to take and leave it, whether it will or will not happen. But telling it in promotional information is a new kind of low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpus Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I can't see Mel burning Shireen without Stannis' approval. She'd know she'd be as good as dead if she does that. Exactly. Unless Stannis himself was dead, nobody would touch Shireen without his approval. Stannis has been going down this same road in the books, and he will order her burning in the books, I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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