(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.

[ummester]

My only concern with the burning is not so much the scene or the context just the fact that the minute it ends we cut to Dany riding Drogon, presented as an un-ironic uplifting kick-ass moment.

There is a synergy there - it may have uplifting and kick ass music, but all those people Drogon torched must have felt exactly like Shireen. I think the only reason they still play the 'happy music' with Dany, is because they don't want us to know her story isn't a happy story yet.

[TeethGrinder]

It's hilarious to see apologists defending this.

Even if you despise Stannis, you just saw a character with a history of being resolute to the point of madness, burn his daughter and only heir alive because it was snowing.

That just happened.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

the part i find most incredulous was Selyse having a last minute change of heart.

As somebody else said, D&D's idea of character depth is to have characters suddenly behave 180 degree opposite of their established personality at random times.

[Woman of War]

Shireen's burning was the most horrible thing in the whole show to me. Now I can understand the fury and despair of my unsullied frieds after the the Red Wedding, I can even relate to their oaths never to watch again.

And yet I will go on on loving books and show.

There is no need to play one awful moment against the other and yet I am doing this on purpose since I am enraged about the hypocrisy around the whole Sansa debate when we already could be quite sure that the burning of Shireen would happen.

But Sansa getting raped is not at all comparable to this. Sansa is still alive and still has a story to tell, she is still there and just like Shireen getting burned Sansa's rape or abuse did not yet happen in the books but happened in the show.

Yes, I am shocked about the death of one of my favorite characters as anyone would be. And I am furious bout the glaring hypocrisy of some posters concerning the episodes past. Where is the rage about that other young girl who after all is dead?! You won't read me raging about events since that cruelty like the other one is part of the story.

Martin and the showmakers will know why this turn was necessary.

I guess storywise Stannis is burned now as character representing hope and justice. Rooting for him would be impossible after that and I guess he is doomed sooner or later no less than Tywin was. Stannis has entered the lines of those complex and hugely fascinating villains like Tywin, Baelish and maybe Roose. Potential of self sacrificial redemption but villain nonetheless.

[Mladen]

Even though I have little reservations whether Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books, this was just plainly wrong way to do so. The idea of Stannis doing that rests on "sacrifice is never easy" line, not "20 good men" did something to us, so let we burn the Princess.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's hilarious to see apologists defending this.

Even if you despise Stannis, you just saw a character with a history of being resolute to the point of madness, burn his daughter and only heir alive because it was snowing.

That just happened.

I think that's kind the root of the problem. This adaptation is very basic. We do have people coming here and plainly say, without any kind of depth or further analysis, "Stannis is a villain!" or "Dany is evil because dragons!". GRRM's characters are not that simple, they can't be simple labelled as "evil" or "hero". If anything, both Dany and Stannis are good people who are making mistakes. Given their positions, their mistakes are understandable way more serious than any other person's. Those who interpret Stannis as a "villain" might be celebrating now because they believe they were right. D&D are not right, they are just giving him a very shallow characterization. We could say the same about mostly of the characters. They are pretty much confirming every other misconception we often see here and try to debunk about the characters.

[Peter George Stewart]

Stannis fandom has to have been one of the most mysterious phenomena I've ever witnessed. He was never anything more than a doubtful contender, and it was always clear to me (and I'm on record here) that GRRM never actually wrote him as anything more than that. Davos was already having doubts about him latterly, and Davos is clearly meant to be a moral compass of sorts.

I always felt Stannis fandom was a perverse, contrarian reaction against Dany fandom, an aberration, and I'm glad it's going to come to an end.

[ummester]

Woman of War, I agree with your sentiments entirely - Shireens death was one of the cruelest acts in the entire saga, equaled only by Robb's pregnant wife copping a knife in the womb. Sexual assault is wrong - but the cruelty is nothing like what happened to Shireen - an innocent mind, burnt painfully to death, crying out to your parents as they watch - fuck me, i can't think of much worse.

Martin and the showmakers will know why this turn was necessary.

As for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT4_Fefew78

[JonSnowed]

That was one hard scene to watch (I fast forwarded as downloaded the episode on demand in the UK), however it's clearly something from Winds of Winter and a scene most people had predicted. Yes there may be a few changes in how it happens but it's coming in the next book so get off the show producers backs.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Even though I have little reservations whether Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books, this was just plainly wrong way to do so. The idea of Stannis doing that rests on "sacrifice is never easy" line, not "20 good men" did something to us, so let we burn the Princess.

Well, as I've said already, the books are already not like in the show. Stannis would have to travel from where he's now back to the Wall, say "I need to kill her because my plan isn't working!!" and then, return and continuing to do whatever he's doing. Or he could fax them :dunno: Whatever happens will be definitely in a different context.

Seriously, either GRRM was trolling them (and considering one of his latest blog posts this could be true) or he told them Shireen would be burn in name of Stannis' cause and that's how these morons interpreted the whole thing.

[Denam_Pavel]

Stannis fandom has to have been one of the most mysterious phenomena I've ever witnessed. He was never anything more than a doubtful contender, and it was always clear to me (and I'm on record here) that GRRM never actually wrote him as anything more than that. Davos was already having doubts about him latterly, and Davos is clearly meant to be a moral compass of sorts.

I always felt Stannis fandom was a perverse, contrarian reaction against Dany fandom, an aberration, and I'm glad it's going to come to an end.

Stannis was at his most badass in the recent Winds teaser, far away from Davos and it has little to do with Daenerys. He's just an entertaining personality. And we're not going anywhere.

[Ramsay B.]

It's hilarious to see apologists defending this.

Even if you despise Stannis, you just saw a character with a history of being resolute to the point of madness, burn his daughter and only heir alive because it was snowing.

That just happened.

Haha, seriously. This is all just madness at this point.

[bent branch]

That's not true, Stannis even mentions Ned supporting his claim at the parlay with Renly before the shadowbaby.

You are probably right that this happened in the show. It didn't happen in the book. Therefore, I apologize.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Stannis fandom has to have been one of the most mysterious phenomena I've ever witnessed. He was never anything more than a doubtful contender, and it was always clear to me (and I'm on record here) that GRRM never actually wrote him as anything more than that. Davos was already having doubts about him latterly, and Davos is clearly meant to be a moral compass of sorts.

I always felt Stannis fandom was a perverse, contrarian reaction against Dany fandom, an aberration, and I'm glad it's going to come to an end.

“The letter that Davos found is the letter that Maester Aemon sent out from the wall, calling on all of the five kings who were then fighting to send help to the Wall because the cold winds are rising, the White Walkers are moving, the wights, the dead are coming back to life…Stannis has realized that he’s going about this all wrong, that he’s been trying to become king to save the realm when he should have been saving the realm to become king.”

"t the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI."

- GRRM

[Lord Freypie]

The problem wasn't the burning by itself imo.

It was :

- Bolton 20 men raid leading to this decision

- Stannis also ordering to kill sentinels because he's such a bad commander he can't assume responsability for not fortifying his camp

- Selyse character inversion because mothers may only care for children (that "positive sexism" become annoying, seem the writers do it with just every feminine character, from Cat loving Jon, to Karsi the wildling and the undead childs, to Cersei and her lost son with Robert...)

- Having one more time put characters somewhere else than where they should have been, just to make it happen that way

[Mladen]

Well, as I've said already, the books are already not like in the show. Stannis would have to travel from where he's now back to the Wall, say "I need to kill her because my plan isn't working!!" and then, return and continuing to do whatever he's doing. Or he could fax them :dunno: Whatever happens will be definitely in a different context.

Seriously, either GRRM was trolling them (and considering one of his latest blog posts this could be true) or he told them Shireen would be burn in name of Stannis' cause and that's how these morons interpreted the whole thing.

Bolded - exactly. I mean, as much as I would like to say "Look, people, I was right all along", thing is that this is totally different type of animal. Plus, the entire idea is so messed up that seeking confirmation in this would be violating my own theory.

I don't think that they got it wrong about Shireen and Stannis. I just believe they did what they always do - mess it up when it comes to motivation and characterization.

[TeethGrinder]

Consider that book Stannis:

- Never actually gives the order to burn Edric Storm.

- Is the one who initially refuses and comes up with the idea of leaches.

- Assumes that the leaches work, because the Kings actually die.

- Sounds "more tired than angry" when Davos informs him he's gone, was tortured by the decision.

- Threatens Mel to "die by the inches" unless it produces a dragon.

If you can't see the difference in the depth Martin have to that internal struggle and this decision made on a whim to burn his daughter then you shouldn't really be commenting.

The show have portrayed him as a villain. It's been obvious ever since the Gendry debacle.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Bolded - exactly. I mean, as much as I would like to say "Look, people, I was right all along", thing is that this is totally different type of animal. Plus, the entire idea is so messed up that seeking confirmation in this would be violating my own theory.

I don't think that they got it wrong about Shireen and Stannis. I just believe they did what they always do - mess it up when it comes to motivation and characterization.

Agree. I don't doubt Stannis would, in a situation like, dunno, having the Great Other facing him and realising he cannot win and humanity is doomed. Here, he ordered her execution because he was overplayed by Ramsay. RAMSAY. The one man who ate his own shoes rather than surrender a castle, for God's sake.

[Mladen]

Woman of War, I agree with your sentiments entirely - Shireens death was one of the cruelest acts in the entire saga, equaled only by Robb's pregnant wife copping a knife in the womb. Sexual assault is wrong - but the cruelty is nothing like what happened to Shireen - an innocent mind, burnt painfully to death, crying out to your parents as they watch - fuck me, i can't think of much worse.

Do we really need to play this game? I agree that Shireen's burning is an atrocity and goes straight to the top of the list of what bad things happened in Westeros, but the idea of calling people hypocritical because they found rape a bit difficult to process is completely wrong. Just because another character got it worse, doesn't mean that sufferings of other are immediately negated.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Consider that book Stannis:

- Never actually gives the order to burn Edric Storm.

- Is the one who initially refuses and comes up with the idea of leaches.

- Assumes that the leaches work, because the Kings actually die.

- Sounds "more tired than angry" when Davos informs him he's gone, was tortured by the decision.

- Threatens Mel to "die by the inches" unless it produces a dragon.

If you can't see the difference in the depth Martin have to that internal struggle and this decision made on a whim to burn his daughter then you shouldn't really be commenting.

The show have portrayed him as a villain. It's been obvious ever since the Gendry debacle.

The problem with Stannis is that he is not given a POV. That's why people 1. don't get him or 2. don't believe him important. Stannis is one character that is very very sensitive. The whole Proudwing tale proves it.