(Book Spoilers)PSA: Regarding E09's controversial moment. It was GRRM's idea.

[CerseiStark]

When people say "Stannis won't be there" they mean he won't even know about it. It will be behind his back. Stannis is at Winterfell in a massive snowstorm and Mel, Selyse and Shireen are at The Wall. Shireen's death just physically cannot happen as it does in the show.

I know that's what folks delusionally believe, but I'll take bets on it. Send me a PM and we can set it up. It will not happen behind Stannis' back. He may be even more of a wuss than he is on the show and not be there for it, but it will be on his order. That would make no sense whatsoever, as it's the defining moment of his character that everything has been building to.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

In the books the only person who I remember was willing to sacrifice her child to bring someome back was... guess who? Its starts with a D and ends with aenerys.

....

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son's life."

Ooops!

On the other hand...

Your Grace, if you are dead " " you will avenge my death,and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." Ser Justin

D&D cant do whatever fanfiction they want. But dont shield themselves behind Martin.

[StormRhage]

Agree.....ugh it's so frustrating how they portray him and Dorne!

It is bad writing in the show. Context matters.

I'm sure Shireen will be burned in the books and GRRM might have told D&D that. But it cannot possibly happen under the same circumstances as in the show. First of all, Shireen is not even with Stannis so for Stannis to order the execution of Shireen, he either needs to go back to the Wall (which seems unlikely) or she needs to come to him. Either way this will take quite a lot of time. I suspect that Melisandre will be the one to burn Shireen in the books without Stannis' consent, which is a huge difference compared to the scene we got in the last episode.

The only way I can see Stannis burn Shireen willingly in the books is if he's in a truly desperate situation. Like, the White Walkers have surrounded them and are about to slaughter them all. Remember, this is the same Stannis that held Storm's End for a year and would rather eat rats than surrender. This Stannis would never sacrifice his daughter and only heir just because some of their tents/horses were set on fire and the weather is bad. The circumstances in the show are nowhere near as bad as in the books and there Stannis explicitly states that there will be no sacrifices and that his men better start praying.

In the show it's terrible writing because:

- The desperation of Stannis' situation is extremely underwhelming and should've received way more screentime/attention. The whole attack from Ramsay's 20 ninjas is laughably bad.

- Selyse doing a full 180 makes no sense. She was set up as a crazy woman so far and it would make far more sense for Stannis to drop down to his knees at that last moment.

- All the happy scenes with Shireen could be seen as foreshadowing but Stannis' current decision is a full 180 switch from his previous scene with Shireen. Show!Stannis is even more protective and caring of Shireen than the book version.

- Balon isn't even dead so there's less confirmation that Melisandre's powers work than in the books.

- It seems that getting good weather is the only purpose of their sacrifice of Shireen. It is underwhelming and unlike Stannis, to say the least.

The whole scene just screams "SHOCK VALUE" to me and I don't understand how anyone could consider it good writing.

[HexMachina]

2. What got messed in the show is not the burning, but the context of it. We are speaking about guy prepared to hunger himself, someone whose will couldn't have been bent by Ramsay's "20 good men". The context here is missing.

3. If Stannis chooses to burn Shireen in TWOW, I expect to be for reason far more grave than lack of food. Furthermore, I expect Stannis to have the real debate, to be challenged on every level, to question every single thing regarding AAR and himself before doing it. Making him like a villain in this situation is easy. In what GRRM plans to do, I suppose will be a bit more difficult to discard him as someone "worse than Joffrey and Ramsay".

Stannis will not even burn Asha at this point in the books, and she is a woman he has no affection for at all. He only, very reluctantly, burns the cannibals (which, yes, is still ambiguous in terms of right and wrong, but on a totally different level to burning your innocent daughter whom you have professed to love several times). I imagine that if Stannis is to order her burned, it will require drastically different circumstances (just thinking of the timelines, it would need to be after the Battle of Ice if he was to order it).

Which is again why I personally think that it will be Mel, and possibly Selyse, who have Shireen burned in the books, without Stannis' knowledge/consent. After all, so far as they are aware, Stannis is dead at this point. I don't rule out the possibility of Stannis doing it, but I think the latter option is more likely.

My issue with it in the show is that it seems illogical and poorly written. And if this is how it was to go down in the books, yes, I would say the same.

[lojzelote]

If it happens, it will be in entirely different circumstances. It will certainly not be related to the Battle of Ice. But I do not think it will happen. Stannis and Shireen are miles apart separated by a snow storm. You really think it's a coincidence that in the show they contrived to have Shireen, Mel and Selyse accompany Stannis on his march? It was so this scenario could be forced and the blame could be shifted by Stannis.

Pretty much everyone thought Shireen would be burned. No one who has actually engaged with the books thinks it would be Stannis doing it, not in this manner. Not for something so trivial.

Actually, I agree with you that the circumstances will be different, but there's a great likelihood he will burn her in the books and not necessarily for a greater good. You know, I don't think that a person in their right mind would kill their brother for a throne they allegedly don't want.

Really we're dealing with people whose reading comprehension is stuck at grade 3 level. I can't even bother to answer their inane questions.

:rolleyes:

[HexMachina]

I know that's what folks delusionally believe, but I'll take bets on it. Send me a PM and we can set it up. It will not happen behind Stannis' back. He may be even more of a wuss than he is on the show and not be there for it, but it will be on his order. That would make no sense whatsoever, as it's the defining moment of his character that everything has been building to.

Shireen isn't even with Stannis in the books. See my above comment for further musings though

[HexMachina]

I know that's what folks delusionally believe, but I'll take bets on it. Send me a PM and we can set it up. It will not happen behind Stannis' back. He may be even more of a wuss than he is on the show and not be there for it, but it will be on his order. That would make no sense whatsoever, as it's the defining moment of his character that everything has been building to.

Shireen isn't even with Stannis in the books. See my above comment for further musings though

[Annara Snow]

There are people arguing that Book Stannis would never burn Shireen, that D&D misinterpreted GRRM's quote or even intentionally lied to lay the blame on him. My point is THAT WE DO NOT KNOW THAT. Get over yourself, Annara.

You know what we do know? IT DEFINITELY WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE RIDICULOUS WAY IT HAPPENED IN THE SHOW.

So, get over yourself. (Wow, great argument! So meaningful! Why don't I use it too, since you find it such a meaningful phrase to end the debate. Get over yourself! Let's all just say that to each other! It doesn't mean anything anyway.)

[protar]

I know that's what folks delusionally believe, but I'll take bets on it. Send me a PM and we can set it up. It will not happen behind Stannis' back. He may be even more of a wuss than he is on the show and not be there for it, but it will be on his order. That would make no sense whatsoever, as it's the defining moment of his character that everything has been building to.

I fear you've fundamentally misunderstood Stannis' character. It is no mistake that he has only ever burned convicted criminals in the books. Either Shireen will be burned by Mel behind Stannis' back, or he will burn Shireen when it's her life or everyone else's. As in the Others are coming down on them and the only way they stand a chance is to burn Shireen. And even then I think Stannis would probably offer his own Kings Blood rather than kill his daughter. Stannis is a flawed man, but he is not pathetic or evil.

[CerseiStark]

In the show it's terrible writing because:

- The desperation of Stannis' situation is extremely underwhelming and should've received way more screentime/attention. The whole attack from Ramsay's 20 ninjas is laughably bad.

I think it was pretty clear when he was warned several times how treacherous it would be, and you know, men starving and dying off...it may not have been dragged out like the books but it's quite clear what was going on.

- Selyse doing a full 180 makes no sense. She was set up as a crazy woman so far and it would make far more sense for Stannis to drop down to his knees at that last moment.

It doesn't make sense that her daughter screaming for her as she BURNS ALIVE wouldn't snap her out of her religious fantasies? Come now...that's not even a sensible complaint.

- All the happy scenes with Shireen could be seen as foreshadowing but Stannis' current decision is a full 180 switch from his previous scene with Shireen. Show!Stannis is even more protective and caring of Shireen than the book version.

It's called character development. He saved her when she was a baby, but his obsession with becoming King has overtaken him so that he does the worst thing imaginable. That's smart writing, I'm sorry. It's called a natural progression when you clearly are using Stannis as an example of how far someone can go insane while having a single minded obsession.

- Balon isn't even dead so there's less confirmation that Melisandre's powers work than in the books.

Srsly? I don't think they work in the books either, not the way she pretends. Yup, she gave birth to that monster thing that the coward Stannis used to murder his brother (couldn't even stand up and fight him) - she's got some mojo going on, for sure. She's also absolutely horrible at predictions in the book - she misreads them constantly. If anything, the ShowMelisandre has been much more accurate and convincing and hasn't fallen flat on her face so many times.

- It seems that getting good weather is the only purpose of their sacrifice of Shireen. It is underwhelming and unlike Stannis, to say the least.

And the starving men that we have seen, you know, the ones that carve up the horses for meat, on a trip that was known to be treacherous and he was warned against taking.

You are reaching so far here because you don't like what happened. "I don't like" or "I was oblivious to the obvious signs" is not bad writing.

[The Emberheart]

Heck, Selyse may burn down her tent or room with herself and Shireen both in it. We'll wait and see.

[CerseiStark]

I fear you've fundamentally misunderstood Stannis' character. It is no mistake that he has only ever burned convicted criminals in the books. Either Shireen will be burned by Mel behind Stannis' back, or he will burn Shireen when it's her life or everyone else's. As in the Others are coming down on them and the only way they stand a chance is to burn Shireen. And even then I think Stannis would probably offer his own Kings Blood rather than kill his daughter. Stannis is a flawed man, but he is not pathetic or evil.

"He will burn Shireen when its' her life or everyone else's" - because the fire god in the sky is real...that's the kicker. Melisandre definitely has some magic tricks (revealed in the books as practical effects, at least in the show they haven't shown what a fraud her little displays are), and she was able to tap into something to make the kin-murdering ghost thing - but Stannis ever thinking that burning his child alive would "save everyone" is exactly what is wrong with him, and why he is weak and pathetic. He's willing to believe anything if it staves off his desperation.

Kind of like what's going on now with folks who just refuse to see Stannis as what he is. I've always seen signs of these things, I didn't misunderstand him - I'm not the one confused by current events.

[Bayard]

Even Elio defended the scene to some extent and he is in no way, shape or form a show apologist..

I haven't seen his thoughts on the matter yet but I think you should know that he's the biggest Renly fan on this forum. He actually made me reconsider my opinion on him. But the love for Renly also brings with it a disdain towards Stannis..... from the opinions he had on Stannis' character in the past seasons I doubt he can be objective.

[CerseiStark]

Shireen isn't even with Stannis in the books. See my above comment for further musings though

Yes, because there is no such thing in the show as ravens, or orders/instructions left behind, or sending someone with a message on horseback...

[TeethGrinder]

I could literally write an essay on how Show-Stannis has been butchered in comparison with his book counterpart.

No one says Stannis is perfect in the books, he wouldn't be half as appealing if he were. But the show portrayal is that of a weak, cruel and generally incompetent guy, which he just isn't in ASOIAF.

They've done this because they don't want a popular alternative to Dany. No doubt in my mind. They weren't even going to cast Shireen initially so I'm not convinced that this is actually the accumulation of Stannis' character.

She will burn in the books. And if it's at Stannis' command, it will be the end of the road for him as it should be. But GRRM will present it in a believable and tragic way and not the "Oh it's snowing" format the show went with. I'll bet anything with anyone that he will not sacrifice her just to take Winterfell.

I know some of the people who dislike him are enjoying this, but you're embarrassing yourself if you think this is consistent with his book character, or if you think it makes sense on any level within any context. It's was a fiasco the second Ramsay left with 20 men.

I'm glad Hannibal and True Detective are starting up again because I'm completely done with the show. I'm not going to watch and complain for the sake of it. It's infuriating because you have glorious episodes like Hardhome which offer so much, but when they force certain characters and storylines in the way they're doing - Everything I'm invested in from the books has either been cut or destroyed.

[Bayard]

dp

[Nictarion]

In the books the only person who I remember was willing to sacrifice her child to bring someome back was... guess who? Its starts with a D and ends with aenerys.

....

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son's life."

Ooops!

Stannis is still a piece of shit, who many of us saw for what he is in Cressen's prologue chapter. We didn't need a scene of him burning his daughter to realize it, but I'm sure it's opened the eyes of many that were on the fence. Of course the "Mannis" fans will continue to be as stubborn as their favorite character is.

And even if Dany knew it wasn't the horse, she didn't fucking burn her child to death while she screamed for help. Nice deflection though. :rolleyes:

[Hand to King Davos]

Interesting, but I don't care. It doesn't fit with who Stannis is to me, especially in the books. He is slowly becoming more practical, more able to bend, and by doing this he has destroyed his dynasty. I will be equally as pissed if this happens in the books, if not more so, than with it happening in the show.

I never thought I would mean this, but I might not watch the next episode. I probably will, but next season is up in the air for sure.

[ummester]

There is no way anyone can prove what GRRM said to D&D, or what GRRM planned at point X, so any argument about it is pointless.

Further, even if a Shireen burning scene in TWoW (when/if published) is vastly different to the show, there is no way anyone can prove it wasn't planned to be as D&D filmed it, at one stage.

Stannis burnt his daughter because Mel convinced him it is the only option - it was cruel and has ruined some peoples interpretation of Stannis. It is the only official plotting for Stannis we have at this stage, so his fans have to accept he's gone there and decide what they think about him a a result. It's drama, it's meant to make you emotionally involved.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Stannis is still a piece of shit, who many of us saw for what he is in Cressen's prologue chapter. We didn't need a scene of him burning his daughter to realize it, but I'm sure it's opened the eyes of many that were on the fence. Of course the "Mannis" fans will continue to be as stubborn as their favorite character is.

And even if Dany knew it wasn't the horse, she didn't fucking burn her child to death while she screamed for help. Nice deflection though. :rolleyes:

stannis has done nothing yet. Tv Show is not book canon.

Your Grace, if you are dead " " you will avenge my death,and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." Ser Justin ...

Sorry but Im sticking with what is written until something else is written at all. You cant fight this with book quotes. With two big book quotes as the ones I gave.

All you can throw at me is D&D fan fiction. As far as I know Daenerys is the only book character willing to sacrifice her own child. Text proben.