A+J=T v.5

[Suzanna Stormborn]

You really shouldn't use the TV series as clues to what will happen in the books, for example I truly doubt Stannis will be defeated by Bolton in the books.

I agree about Stannis, but leaving a huge character out the way they are leaving fAegon out does not bode well for his chances or importance in the books. I think some things the show spoils for us we have to accept, like it or not.

It would not really be hard for Benjen to guess Jon's parentage. Even if Lyanna was raped her having a child is not that unlikely (how I first guessed this theory), Benjen would also want details from Ned about how she died and who Jon's mother is. So even if Ned never confirmed anything Benjen could guess right the way we have.

Yes exactly, Benjen is Ned's only living family after the war, they both loved Lyanna to no end. Even if Ned refused to tell Benjen the truth, no doubt he could figure it out.

Of course we should for such central themes as the 3 heads of the Dragon (or Stannis' eventual fate). Come on, we have Aemon doing his nice "the Dragon has 3 heads" speach and no Aegon? Podrick is a much more likely head !

Yes for sure I agree, the show has really narrowed down the 3 heads options to very few characters.

[Weirdo]

Of course we should for such central themes as the 3 heads of the Dragon (or Stannis' eventual fate). Come on, we have Aemon doing his nice "the Dragon has 3 heads" speach and no Aegon? Podrick is a much more likely head !

What bothers me is that the show hasn't brought up any issues around bonding with dragons, beyond the emotional connection that Dany has; she's their 'mother' because she was there at their birth. They've left it open for anyone to ride a dragon, it seems to me. If they want to set up some kind of mini-Dance, they can use any character they like for the side opposing Dany (probably someone they've decided to make into one of their cartoon villains), so maybe it wouldn't spoil much about the book. But I agree we can draw conclusions about the endgame based on the show, and it looks like Aegon won't be there. Or Stannis.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ That's true there has been no bonding foreshadowing or info at all really on the show. My guess is that we will learn a lot more about it in the first few episodes of next season.

[Jô Maltese]

What bothers me is that the show hasn't brought up any issues around bonding with dragons, beyond the emotional connection that Dany has; she's their 'mother' because she was there at their birth. They've left it open for anyone to ride a dragon, it seems to me. If they want to set up some kind of mini-Dance, they can use any character they like for the side opposing Dany (probably someone they've decided to make into one of their cartoon villains), so maybe it wouldn't spoil much about the book. But I agree we can draw conclusions about the endgame based on the show, and it looks like Aegon won't be there. Or Stannis.

Well actually the show did connect subtly another character with dragons... Tyrion.

[Chinoiserie]

I think the show has cut the entire dance of dragons thing we might get in the books. Which makes sense because it would take a lot of the budget to show dragons and it will probably be not that relevant for the endgame. And the show is really agressivily moving towards that. Sometimes I wonder if GRRM has not spent the entire series just working on the first part of his original trilogy the way he keeps adding stuff...

Anyway fAegon migh still get a dragon but he won't be one of the three heads for the endgame.

But there should be more magical things foreshadowing in the show. But I think they have accurately realised the average viewer does not like that. However we will likely get more dragon bonding stuff both in the next season and the next book since Dany really needs to learn how to control one.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Yes exactly, Benjen is Ned's only living family after the war, they both loved Lyanna to no end. Even if Ned refused to tell Benjen the truth, no doubt he could figure it out.

If you take Benjen figuring out Jon true heritage one step further it doesn't make sense.

So Benjen knows about Jon, then what? Does he confront Ned about it? Does Ned lie to him and say no? Or does he tell him the truth?

If Ned tells him the truth, then what?

If I am Ned, and I have my family and Winterfell to lose due to my treason against the King PLUS my wife is super pissed about my bastard son living with me, AND my brother knows... dont you try and set him up as Jon's guardian?

Set Benjen up with a hold (he could easily do that) and have Benjen raise him instead of joining the Night's Watch.

Plus, all of times Ned thinks about the Promise, he always talks about what it has cost him and the lies he has told, wouldn't he think about at least I shared the burden with my brother or something to that effect.

Now, if you want to argue that maybe, Benjen suspects but has never talked to Ned about it, that is possible. But there is no way Ned told him or confirmed it to him.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ My guess would be that Benjen questioned Ned once or twice way back 15 years ago, Ned was cold as ice, it never got brought up again. But Benjen still could have figured it out.

[Weirdo]

Well actually the show did connect subtly another character with dragons... Tyrion.

True. But they aren't talking about the mechanism by which he would bond with a dragon yet. That might mean that they intend to reveal A+J=T as justification when he does bond with a dragon - and throw out the Dance entirely, which I agree they will probably do.

On the show, if all dragonriders are Targ, and there's no Dance, then they don't need another Targaryen (assuming a return of Jon/unJon/wargJon, and of course, assuming R+L=J).

They also don't need any dragonbinding horns or fleets of Ironmen (because no non-Targ needs to control a dragon). Thus no Dance for time and budgetary reasons.

Of course, I have been assuming we will have the same three heads in both Planetos and Televos, and that the Dance (in the books) will be between Dany and Aegon. If I am wrong about that second point, and the Dance is a fight between Dany, Tyrion, and Jon in some combination, then I suppose the show could include the Dance in some abbreviated form.

[oursisthefury69]

^^ My guess would be that Benjen questioned Ned once or twice way back 15 years ago, Ned was cold as ice, it never got brought up again. But Benjen still could have figured it out.

Well yea thats because your a reasonable person

[Wouter]

^^ My guess would be that Benjen questioned Ned once or twice way back 15 years ago, Ned was cold as ice, it never got brought up again. But Benjen still could have figured it out.

I think Ned told Benjen. They're brothers, and they seem to have trusted each other. Lyanna was his sister, too, and he was apparently close to her. Benjen would not only likely figure it out, he would also have wanted to know the truth from Ned.

It also helps to share the secret/burden with someone.

[DMC]

^^ My guess would be that Benjen questioned Ned once or twice way back 15 years ago, Ned was cold as ice, it never got brought up again. But Benjen still could have figured it out.

Lol: And so it was after the third month of Benjen questioning Ned weekly, Ser Rodrik Cassel approaches Benjen and says, "I don't know what you said to your brother, but I'm to take you to the Wall."

And I agree with Wouter, I think Ned told Benjen. Gotta share a secret like that with someone.

[Lord Lannister]

Lol: And so it was after the third month of Benjen questioning Ned weekly, Ser Rodrik Cassel approaches Benjen and says, "I don't know what you said to your brother, but I'm to take you to the Wall."

And I agree with Wouter, I think Ned told Benjen. Gotta share a secret like that with someone.

Why Benjen joined the Watch mystery solved! :D

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Found some more hints in GOT;

GOT Tyrion II (wrt Tyrion not being able to sleep since he was a child, just like Dany and Dareon.)

'He had been at it all night, but that was nothing new. Tyrion Lannister was not much a one for sleeping."

Same chapter, another time Tyrion has been obsessing over dragons and anything Valyrian in general, as he seems to everywhere he goes.

"I'm off to break my fast. See that you return the books to the shelves. Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry. Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen."

Same chapter, hinting at the monster side of him again;

"Speaking for the grotesques," he said. "I beg to differ. Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

Jaime smiled "You are a perverse little Imp, aren't you?"

To add to that, I never really though about the definition of 'Imp' before; An imp is a mythological being similar to a fairy or goblin, frequently described in folklore and superstition.

Tyrion GOT III

"the wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons."

same chapter

"Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to Kin's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room."

--on his first visit to KL.....as in he wanted to see the skulls before he saw anything else, we get this kind of obsession from hardly anyone else in the books. Maybe Robert with Lyanna?

same chapter

"he had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer int he light of his torch. They liked the fire he sensed.......WHen he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go."

same chapter

"Tyrion stood in that dank cellar for a long time, staring at Balerion's huge empty-eyed skull until his torch burned low, trying to grasp the size of the living animal, to imagine how it must have looked when it spread its great black wings and swept across the skies, breathing fire.

same chapter

'For a few moments, the chroniclers wrote, the conquest was at and end...but only for those few moments, before Aegon Targaryen and his sisters joined the battle. It was the only times that Vhagar, Meraxes and Balerion were all unleashed at once. The singers called it the Field of Fire.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Why is that funny?

Its not.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^? :dunno:

[Lord Lannister]

Its not.

^^? :dunno:

Heh, I had to look up the OP and what I was even referring to two weeks ago! Figured Suzanna and I sorted that out. Actually I was more concerned the "yall" part of that comment was some sort of dig at the south than the actual WoW Spoiler part. :P

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am just catching up on the ATJ discussion. I think the question of what Benjen knew is an interesting one -- even though not directly related to ATJ. I agree that Benjen being gone for almost the entire series is a hint that he knows too much -- he also might have been too strong an ally for Jon at the Wall, but I think he knows or at least strongly suspects RLJ and thus needed to be sidelined. I tend to think that Ned would not have told Benjen, however, for the same reason, in part, that Ned did not tell Cat even over time (although there were also other good reasons not to tell Cat). The secret was too dangerous to know and potentially put Benjen at risk if Benjen knew about it. Ned's honor and desire to keep his family safe would keep him from telling Benjen. But I suspect that Benjen knew how Lyanna felt about Rhaegar, and I think, like SS stated, Benjen would know that Ned simply was not likely to have an affair with a mystery woman. So I think Benjen more or less figured it out (and would notice the resemblance between Jon and Lyanna in a way that others might not) -- but never pushed the issue knowing that Ned did not want to discuss the matter.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think Benjen being sidelined so long is that his part to play is in the War for the Dawn, and we've only just begun the Second Dance of the Dragons.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think Benjen being sidelined so long is that his part to play is in the War for the Dawn, and we've only just begun the Second Dance of the Dragons.

But there are a lot of characters who will play a part in the war -- most of whom are part of the story all along. Why sideline Benjen for so long?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Heh, I had to look up the OP and what I was even referring to two weeks ago! Figured Suzanna and I sorted that out. Actually I was more concerned the "yall" part of that comment was some sort of dig at the south than the actual WoW Spoiler part. :P

We did sort it out lol, I'm from Georgia, I say yall 20 times a day, even in NYC :) That's why I was curious what that other poster was referring to?

But there are a lot of characters who will play a part in the war -- most of whom are part of the story all along. Why sideline Benjen for so long?

Yes I find it to be no coincidence that the only 2 people left alive who (most likely) combined know all the details and the whole story of RLJ are the 2 characters totally missing for all 5 books.