A+J=T v.5

[Lord Varys]

Ibbison,

 

but wasn't Ilyn Payne's tongue cut out years after Joanna's death (I'm on vacation and without the books right now)? And why the hell would Aerys want to keep that one a secret, exactly?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

In AGoT, Sansa I, Renly says that Aerys had Payne's tongue cut out 14 years ago. That makes little sense, since that would be 2 years after Tywin resigned the Handship and returned to Casterly Rock. 16 years  (281, the year Tywin resigned) makes more sense. There is no need to expect that Aerys took care of Payne immediately after impregnating Joanna.

 

Taking out Payne's tongue may have directly linked with Jaime taking the White. By making sure the secret is kept, Aerys denies Tywin an excuse to disinherit Tyrion, thus saddling Tywin with a dwarf for an heir.

[Consigliere]

Quoting the relevant passage from the world book.

Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last. It was not long before reports of the kings remarks reached Lord Tywin as he grieved at Casterly Rock. Thereafter, no shred of the old affection between the two men endured. Never a man to make a show of his emotion, Lord Tywin continued on as Hand of the King, dealing with the daily tedium of the Seven Kingdoms, while the king grew ever more erratic, violent, and suspicious. Aerys began to surround himself with informers, paying handsome rewards to men of dubious repute for whispers, lies, and tales of treasons, real and imagined. When one such reported that the captain of the Hands personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers. The march of the kings madness seemed to abate for a time in 274 AC, when Queen Rhaella gave birth to a son.

This passage seems to imply that Payne's tongue was removed sometime between Joanna's death (273AC) and Prince Jaehaerys' birth (274AC).

[Lord Varys]

Ah, okay, then there is a possible link there, although I don't see any reason why Aerys would want to keep Tyrion's parentage a secret. He could always dismiss or execute Tywin, after all, and the setting doesn't suggest at all that Aerys cared about what Tywin knew or didn't know about his relationship to Joanna. 

[Chinoiserie]

Ah, okay, then there is a possible link there, although I don't see any reason why Aerys would want to keep Tyrion's parentage a secret. He could always dismiss or execute Tywin, after all, and the setting doesn't suggest at all that Aerys cared about what Tywin knew or didn't know about his relationship to Joanna. 

Aerys could be ashaimed for fathering a dwarf and would want people to ridicule Tywin over this not himself and so not want his relationship with Joanna known. I do not think Aerys cared what Tywin thought however since both options would be bad for Tywin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And yet Cersei tells Jaime about Payne in early 281 AC, so it will have most likely occured within the few yeas before. The World Book doesn't tell everything as year per year, and the passage quoted from the book is ambiguous enough to go either way.

Lord Tywin continued on as Hand of the King, dealing with the daily tedium of the Seven Kingdoms, while the king grew ever more erratic, violent, and suspicious. Aerys began to surround himself with informers, paying handsome rewards to men of dubious repute for whispers, lies, and tales of treasons, real and imagined.

This is a description of what Aerys became in the years following, not within the one year until Jaehaerys' birth.. Or at least, that's how I read it.

Renly's statement about 14 years is about the fourteen years he has been at court himself, I think, with Payne, as Payne came in Roberts service as a wedding gift to Tywin (and the wedding occurred in 284 AC, fourteen years prior to the statement).

[The Dragons Hand]

 

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore.“How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

“Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. if my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but-”

“No need,” Lord Tywin said. “This will serve.”

“A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better,” said Tyrion. “They have an ominous beauty...and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

I found this a little amusing since I've always envisioned Oathkeeper and Widow's wail have blades in the Targaryen coloring. Not proof of any sort, but something to ponder perhaps.

[Lady Snow]

Cersei dreams she's naked on the iron throne, the swords cutting her, while people are laughing at her (clear sign of the walk of shame, naked and being mocked because she couldn't handle power).
Jaime dreams of his mother, something many dreams (targ dreams) have. Jon will almost definitely find out his parentage in the crypt dream and Daenerys fever dreams connected her with long lost ancestors. He also dreamed of seeing cersei sleep with moon boy. He then killed him and smashed Cersei's teeth with his gold hand that worked like a normal one. Foreshadowing he'll kill Cersei with the hands necklace, hands made of gold. The valonqar prophecy states "wrap his hands around your pale white throat".
Courtesy of D&D we've now got a confirmed spoiler for winds [spoiler]Shireen will get sacrificed. As many good threads have pointed out she will probably be sacrificed by Mel to save Jon, I'm aware the shows different but I don't know how exactly.
Her dream if being eaten by dragons is symbolizing her death by dragons. Jon symbolizing the dragon and eating her and her life force[/spoiler]
Sansa did have a dream that had prophetic meaning to it, I'll go look up after this.
And aemon said that their dreams killed them. Aegon's dreams killed him because they weren't true, he wasn't sleep dreaming, his dreams were hope dreams. Like "oh I dream of riding a dragon".
Daeron's dreams killed him because he couldn't handle them. Mentally it broke him because dragon dreams are frightening, as daenerys and daeron have said.

Cersei dreaming that was just foreshadowing, not prophetic. 

[The Dragons Hand]

I think it is pregnant Jeyne Westerling,

 

I'm down with this, since we have long since been able to dismiss the show killing of or not introducing characters that don't matter later.

[Dofs]

 

Undermining the heart of the Tyrion-Tywin relationship is an entirely subjective interpretation. If this theory turns out to be true then that comment by Genna will turn out to be a nice bit of dramatic irony - that Tyrion who is most like Tywin in terms of personality is not actually his biological child. Kind of like the irony we get with Jon - "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes", "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son."

In the end it's going to be this: Tyrion, whom Tywin despised and didn't see his true heir in him was actually not Tywin's son at all and Tywin was perfectly right about him and he wasn't a fool like Genna once claimed to Jaime. Wow, such a nice irony...

[Chinoiserie]

In the end it's going to be this: Tyrion, whom Tywin despised and didn't see his true heir in him was actually not Tywin's son at all and Tywin was perfectly right about him and he wasn't a fool like Genna once claimed to Jaime. Wow, such a nice irony...

 

So only irony that makes Tywin look bad and Tyrion as much a victim as possible can work? Tywin is certainly bad person enough already and abused Tyrion anyway so this would not turn him a good guy regardless if that is what you are worried about. 

[Dofs]

 

So only irony that makes Tywin look bad and Tyrion as much a victim as possible can work? Tywin is certainly bad person enough already and abused Tyrion anyway so this would not turn him a good guy regardless if that is what you are worried about. 

No, what I mean this "irony" is hardly ironic. What Genna told to Jaime was the irony about Tywin - that the son he despised was the most like him. Making this irony false is not ironic. 

[Weirdo]

Basic writing 101 is that the author creates character plots and arc's that the reader is able to understand and enjoy. Part of being able to critically examine any fiction is the discussion of those arc's and how the author fulfills them. So the arc of Tyrion being the one child that Tywin hates and regularly treats like crap being the child that is most like him and most able to fulfill the desires that Tywin has makes sense. If the arc is that Tywin hates Tyrion and doesn't consider him to be his "true" child and then that being true doesn't work on the same level.

 

And here's another issue: what seems more likely, that GRRM planted clues that two main character's are secretly Targ's but only one of is or that GRRM actually had two "main" characters turn out to be secret Targ's? My vote is that only one of the "obvious" secret Targ's turn out to be true. Based of that assumption (and I admit it's an assumption) which theory has the most weight behind it or makes the most sense form a character arc point of view, Jon or Tyrion? I'd vote Jon.

Just MHO

Personally, I don't think of ASOIAF as 'basic writing'; I find it to be very unusual writing, almost always surprising. And I really don't think that George's main goal is to provide a text that is convenient for critical examination. Rather, I think George tries to provide absorption and excitement for the reader. I don't think he wants the entire story and all of its arcs to be easily understood. If he wanted that, I'm confident he could achieve it, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be as interesting to read.

 

You are right. Sorry I mistyped. The idea of one "main" character having hidden parentage is a good twist...but two? three? It's just not good writing. It's ok to have clues to a bunch of character's having hidden parentage, to keep readers guessing, but I just don't see there being more than one person with a hidden parentage. So again, working of that assumption...which character makes the MOST sense? 

Think about Robert. He left so many bastards lying around, not even Cersei could kill them all. I don't remember thinking each time one was revealed, 'wow, this is really bad writing - this has already happened once already'. What's interesting is the different ways they bear that burden. Likewise, having unexpected parentage will be very different for Tyrion and Jon, and I'll be very interested to read how they take the news.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

Think about Robert. He left so many bastards lying around, not even Cersei could kill them all. I don't remember thinking each time one was revealed, 'wow, this is really bad writing - this has already happened once already'. What's interesting is the different ways they bear that burden. Likewise, having unexpected parentage will be very different for Tyrion and Jon, and I'll be very interested to read how they take the news.

That's a good point. However most of these secret parents theories fall into the basic category of the secret prince. A trope that Martin has said he hates. Most of Robert's bastards of kind of dealt with by little notes about how they're killed IIRC. The only two of any importance are Edric and Gendry. They essentially have the same backstory, bastards of Robert, but are opposites in many ways, most obvious being one is highborn and acknowledged and one is not. The Jon and Tyrion are both secret Targ's arc's could both work, Jon is raised a bastard but is really not (assuming R and L married) and Tyrion is raised a trueborn son, albeit by a shit for a father, but is really a bastard. Could be. I still feel about 90% that Jon is the only one with a secret parent but you do have me questioning some assumptions.

 

I wasn't calling ASOIAF "basic" writing. I merely meant that all writing follows certain patterns that are just a part of good storytelling.  I doubt GRRM's goal is to write anything other than epic fantasy with a realistic bent that subverts certain tropes of the genre. That being said, all good writing is meant to be understood, and some of these theories just cheapen the character's IMO

[DMC]

Since Blackfyre>Blackfire brought it up, I want to object to the notion the AJT theory cheapens the Tywin/Tyrion relationship can easily be dismissed.  The common objections are such a stance is subjective, or similarly Ned/Jon's relationship won't be damaged by an analogous revelation.  While valid, these are rather facile arguments.  My problem with AJT cheapening Tywin/Tyrion actually has nothing to do with who Tyrion's biological father is, but rather the idea that Tywin knew or suspected Aerys is Tyrion's father.  While this is not a prerequisite for the theory, it is an important facet that informs a significant portion of the evidence.

 

My reticence lies in the fact Tywin/Tyrion is THE father/son Shakespearean tragedy we are exposed to.  Tywin's loathing of Tyrion is entirely derived from that fact the dwarf is a reflection of everything he hates about himself.  From his whoring to his 'low cunning' to his begrudging dutifulness to his antipathy towards those he never can seem to please, Tyrion is the Dorian Gray mirror image of Tywin.  Couple all of that with the fact Tyrion is laughed at throughout his life, then the story of Tywin and Tyrion being capped by the latter killing the former after strangling their mutual paramour is just about the only major thread Martin has managed to complete.  Subsequently, complicating such a relationship with Tywin's knowledge of Aerys/Joanna intrigue does cheapen it.  And that, my friends, is entirely objective.

[Weirdo]

That's a good point. However most of these secret parents theories fall into the basic category of the secret prince. A trope that Martin has said he hates. Most of Robert's bastards of kind of dealt with by little notes about how they're killed IIRC. The only two of any importance are Edric and Gendry. They essentially have the same backstory, bastards of Robert, but are opposites in many ways, most obvious being one is highborn and acknowledged and one is not. The Jon and Tyrion are both secret Targ's arc's could both work, Jon is raised a bastard but is really not (assuming R and L married) and Tyrion is raised a trueborn son, albeit by a shit for a father, but is really a bastard. Could be. I still feel about 90% that Jon is the only one with a secret parent but you do have me questioning some assumptions.

 

I wasn't calling ASOIAF "basic" writing. I merely meant that all writing follows certain patterns that are just a part of good storytelling.  I doubt GRRM's goal is to write anything other than epic fantasy with a realistic bent that subverts certain tropes of the genre. That being said, all good writing is meant to be understood, and some of these theories just cheapen the character's IMO

I know what you meant by 'basic writing', I was playing with your words a bit, sorry! I think it's interesting that this is such a well-balanced mystery that it comes down to trying to decide when George intends to subvert a trope, and when he doesn't. Usually it's like he invokes a trope without submitting to it's authority. I love it. He may hate the Secret Prince, but he has invoked the trope not only for Jon, but also for Aegon (or fAegon!). Why not Tyrion?

 

[...]  And that, my friends, is entirely objective.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

You are right. Sorry I mistyped. The idea of one "main" character having hidden parentage is a good twist...but two? three? It's just not good writing. It's ok to have clues to a bunch of character's having hidden parentage, to keep readers guessing, but I just don't see there being more than one person with a hidden parentage. So again, working of that assumption...which character makes the MOST sense? 

Unless...... these books are about a ruined dynasty regaining it's foothold as a power in the world again and said family defeating the great Evil that is the White Walkers with their dragons.  If the books are about the Targs regaining the IT, then it makes perfect sense for a few (one or two) to be lost bastards among a few of the great houses. Because let's face it, it'll take more than just Dany to keep this house going.

[Chinoiserie]

No, what I mean this "irony" is hardly ironic. What Genna told to Jaime was the irony about Tywin - that the son he despised was the most like him. Making this irony false is not ironic. 

Tyrion being most like Tywin out of Tywin's children while not being his child is ironic in a different manner. And Genna was trying to make a statement of Jaime's character and not trying to be expecially ironic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^^^ Exactly, it's all about Nature vs Nurture.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No, what I mean this "irony" is hardly ironic. What Genna told to Jaime was the irony about Tywin - that the son he despised was the most like him. Making this irony false is not ironic. 

The irony would be the the "child" that is most like Tywin in terms of personality -- his "true" son -- is the one who is not really his biological son. That "twist" is definitely irony. It is not "more" ironic if the true son Tywin hates is most like him -- it is equally or MORE ironic that the son who not really his son is the most like him.

 

Since Blackfyre>Blackfire brought it up, I want to object to the notion the AJT theory cheapens the Tywin/Tyrion relationship can easily be dismissed.  The common objections are such a stance is subjective, or similarly Ned/Jon's relationship won't be damaged by an analogous revelation.  While valid, these are rather facile arguments.  My problem with AJT cheapening Tywin/Tyrion actually has nothing to do with who Tyrion's biological father is, but rather the idea that Tywin knew or suspected Aerys is Tyrion's father.  While this is not a prerequisite for the theory, it is an important facet that informs a significant portion of the evidence.

 

My reticence lies in the fact Tywin/Tyrion is THE father/son Shakespearean tragedy we are exposed to.  Tywin's loathing of Tyrion is entirely derived from that fact the dwarf is a reflection of everything he hates about himself.  From his whoring to his 'low cunning' to his begrudging dutifulness to his antipathy towards those he never can seem to please, Tyrion is the Dorian Gray mirror image of Tywin.  Couple all of that with the fact Tyrion is laughed at throughout his life, then the story of Tywin and Tyrion being capped by the latter killing the former after strangling their mutual paramour is just about the only major thread Martin has managed to complete.  Subsequently, complicating such a relationship with Tywin's knowledge of Aerys/Joanna intrigue does cheapen it.  And that, my friends, is entirely objective.

It certainly is objective that it would change the way that readers would view the situation. Whether that change would be a change that "cheapens" the relationship or merely adds more complexity to the relationship is subjective. I agree with Weirdo that you are not using the word "objective" correctly. I simply do not agree that such a revelation would cheapen the relationship at all -- that judgment really is a personal opinion -- and thus inherently subjective rather than objective.